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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
I really like this!
Just a heads up, Crescent Scythe has a very good hitbox that works as a pressure tool and very good anti air. It will be very very good.
I love it as an X23 player but its going to be cheap. Also hitstun at that point will allow for L to connect letting her to solo relaunch. Now that i look at it, this will sort of free up a character slot seeing as how she currently relies on at least one otg or situational assist to do a relaunch to do her heavy damage.
I love it as an X23 player but its going to be cheap. Also hitstun at that point will allow for L to connect letting her to solo relaunch. Now that i look at it, this will sort of free up a character slot seeing as how she currently relies on at least one otg or situational assist to do a relaunch to do her heavy damage.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I guess I'll just join you guys off the deep end and give some overall feedback. I went over the system changes and only some of the character changes in the OP(s) to see what stuck out to me as particularly poorly thought-out ideas. (And don't get me wrong; I think there's some good stuff in there too. Everything else is either stuff I don't care enough about to comment on or stuff I'd be fine with.)
- Vanilla MvC3 HUD option. Not a good idea. Yes, I prefer the old HUD to the new one, but if you allow an option for both, it's just going to end up being a mindfuck when you're at an event that uses different settings than what you're used to, or worse, different settings for different stations. Stick with one and get used to it.
- All command throws are now throw-invincible through their startup and active frames. This seems like it would allow for some dumb situations in whith both players go for a command throw, whiff, and the character with faster recovery gains a significant advantage afterward. Just learn how the frame advantage works for existing throws.
- X-Factor now prevents time outs while active. Not seeing the logic in explicitly allowing this to be used for timer scams. Figure out how to use your resources within the time you're given.
- Input reading changed: holding forward/back is no longer a forward/back input in terms of moves. Example: holding back, and then doing qcb, currently gives one a reverse dragon punch motion. In general, directional input buffering is toned down a bit. Don't fuck with my XF Cat Spike loops, man. How 'bout you learn to drop back to neutral properly instead?
- All snapbacks universalized to be 2 frames and +1 on block. Attack travel speed instantaneous for all characters. Two things here: First, I'm already pretty sure that every snapback has 2-frame start-up, despite what the guidebook says. I've tested the ones that it lists as anomalies and the data in the book doesn't seem to stack up. They all seem to beat out 3-frame moves, and they all seem to lose to 1-frame grabs. It's been a long time since I tested though. Second, it's pretty difficult to ensure that they're always +1 on block, because this is *hugely* dependent on how their number of active frames differ and how deep into the move they hit. Check Tron's snap as an example; it has an obnoxious number of active frames compared to any of the others, and whether it hits early or late in the attack animation is what determines whether it's -38, -9, or somewhere in between. I'm not sure you thought this through thoroughly.
- Mashing to boost damage removed from hypers. I used to be in favor of this; I'm not anymore. There are practical reasons to do minimal damage if you know the hyper will still kill. This allows you to net the KO later in the hyper, and can thus provide you some extra time to prepare an incoming mix-up for the next character.
- Hawkeye f.M special cancelable; no longer hits OTG. This kills his combo damage from combos starting with throws or ice arrow confirms. He is not a high-damage character. Why would you do this?
- Morrigan. I'd consider increasing the number of frames on her fly cancels from, say, 12 to 15 (old MvC3 values), and making it so that she can't cancel flight activation directly into unfly. (In other words, if you tag her with a full-screen hyper as she's starting her flight, she can't unfly during the hyper freeze while she's still in flight start-up.) She ought to be a little less safe in everything she does, and this would be a decent start. I'm actually somewhat surprised (an in agreement) that you haven't explicitly called for removing meter gain from Astral Vision. I'd be fine with just a simple nerf to Soul Fist damage like you listed. Maybe make pushblock actually work against Astral Vision. Or not. Kind of indifferent.
- Vergil. I think I would rather see a massive cut in projectile durability (such as dropping from 5 points per sword to 1 point per sword) rather than making it a level 2, simply because I don't think they'd ever do something like make it a level 2. Just making it so that you can match him with your own projectile hyper and cancel each other out would be enough. Doing something to curb his meter gain and reign in his combos in some way (altering pushback? minimum hitstun on various moves? dunno) would probably be smart.
- Vanilla MvC3 HUD option. Not a good idea. Yes, I prefer the old HUD to the new one, but if you allow an option for both, it's just going to end up being a mindfuck when you're at an event that uses different settings than what you're used to, or worse, different settings for different stations. Stick with one and get used to it.
- All command throws are now throw-invincible through their startup and active frames. This seems like it would allow for some dumb situations in whith both players go for a command throw, whiff, and the character with faster recovery gains a significant advantage afterward. Just learn how the frame advantage works for existing throws.
- X-Factor now prevents time outs while active. Not seeing the logic in explicitly allowing this to be used for timer scams. Figure out how to use your resources within the time you're given.
- Input reading changed: holding forward/back is no longer a forward/back input in terms of moves. Example: holding back, and then doing qcb, currently gives one a reverse dragon punch motion. In general, directional input buffering is toned down a bit. Don't fuck with my XF Cat Spike loops, man. How 'bout you learn to drop back to neutral properly instead?
- All snapbacks universalized to be 2 frames and +1 on block. Attack travel speed instantaneous for all characters. Two things here: First, I'm already pretty sure that every snapback has 2-frame start-up, despite what the guidebook says. I've tested the ones that it lists as anomalies and the data in the book doesn't seem to stack up. They all seem to beat out 3-frame moves, and they all seem to lose to 1-frame grabs. It's been a long time since I tested though. Second, it's pretty difficult to ensure that they're always +1 on block, because this is *hugely* dependent on how their number of active frames differ and how deep into the move they hit. Check Tron's snap as an example; it has an obnoxious number of active frames compared to any of the others, and whether it hits early or late in the attack animation is what determines whether it's -38, -9, or somewhere in between. I'm not sure you thought this through thoroughly.
- Mashing to boost damage removed from hypers. I used to be in favor of this; I'm not anymore. There are practical reasons to do minimal damage if you know the hyper will still kill. This allows you to net the KO later in the hyper, and can thus provide you some extra time to prepare an incoming mix-up for the next character.
- Hawkeye f.M special cancelable; no longer hits OTG. This kills his combo damage from combos starting with throws or ice arrow confirms. He is not a high-damage character. Why would you do this?
- Morrigan. I'd consider increasing the number of frames on her fly cancels from, say, 12 to 15 (old MvC3 values), and making it so that she can't cancel flight activation directly into unfly. (In other words, if you tag her with a full-screen hyper as she's starting her flight, she can't unfly during the hyper freeze while she's still in flight start-up.) She ought to be a little less safe in everything she does, and this would be a decent start. I'm actually somewhat surprised (an in agreement) that you haven't explicitly called for removing meter gain from Astral Vision. I'd be fine with just a simple nerf to Soul Fist damage like you listed. Maybe make pushblock actually work against Astral Vision. Or not. Kind of indifferent.
- Vergil. I think I would rather see a massive cut in projectile durability (such as dropping from 5 points per sword to 1 point per sword) rather than making it a level 2, simply because I don't think they'd ever do something like make it a level 2. Just making it so that you can match him with your own projectile hyper and cancel each other out would be enough. Doing something to curb his meter gain and reign in his combos in some way (altering pushback? minimum hitstun on various moves? dunno) would probably be smart.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Poison shot OTG bounces them into the orb. There is no situation in which this results in less damage for Hawkeye unless you don't care about exploring his options.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73498283]Poison shot OTG bounces them into the orb. There is no situation in which this results in less damage for Hawkeye unless you don't care about exploring his options.[/QUOTE]
Poison shot only picks up 1 character. f.M currently picks up multiple.
Speed shot would pick up multiple characters too, but I'm not sure it'd work as a substitute for poison shot in your example because there's a greater height restriction on speed shot than there is for poison shot.
Poison shot only picks up 1 character. f.M currently picks up multiple.
Speed shot would pick up multiple characters too, but I'm not sure it'd work as a substitute for poison shot in your example because there's a greater height restriction on speed shot than there is for poison shot.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Neither would work well if it remained OTG-capable because the orb would still pick them up slightly before poison shot hit. I'd rather have a reliable higher damage combo from him than better happy birthdays, but I play point Hawkeye and 6M is far more valuable to me as a zoning tool if I could cancel it than it would be as a combo tool because my BnBs do 550-600k meterless anyway.
I'm going to agree that rolling uppercut does not need any buffs.
We could very easily end up giving Felicia some derp stuff if we make it jump cancellable or cancellable into delta kick.
It's usable as is, and you can get a full combo off of it with the right assists. That's good enough IMO.
Thanks for the feedback 645.
On the note of snap backs, yes every snap back starts up in 2 frames but not every snap back takes 2 frames to hit the target. That is to say different snap backs have different travel times. To confirm this, you can try to snap Vergil out of Spiral Swords. Some characters can do this, some characters cannot (like Magneto can and Dormammu cannot) and this is due to disparity in travel time. Secondly, some characters have a ton of recovery after snap back meaning they cannot properly set up a mix up after a snap back. Tron is one of them, her snap back lingers on for days and she misses out on a mix up set up because of this. We felt that since this is a universal tool, the travel time and advantage on hit/block should remain the same the only difference should be obviously the range on the snap backs. Maybe we could've worded it better but this was what we wanted.
On the note of Vergil's Spiral Swords, this was a big change to make but it had to be made. Right now SS is too good in terms of utility. It allows you to by pass zoning, it allows you to apply free pressure, it's a semi DHC glitch and it greatly inflates Vergil's damage. In order to change the hyper and certain moves to a point where the hyper is fair.... you would use up all the 10 slots we have for every character. It's not just the hyper itself, as long as it exists loops will exist and because of that you are allowed to link numerous Lunar Phase and Round Trips. Keeping it a LVL1 would require the following nerfs:
1) Reduce the durability per hit of Spiral Swords
2) Reduce the damage per hit of Spiral Swords
3) Reduce the duration of Spiral Swords
4) Reduce the damage of Lunar Phase
5) Cr.H no longer does soft soft knockdown
6) Round Trip does less damage
7) Special damage scaling nerfed from 20% to 10%
This would make SS at lvl1 fair but those are a lot of nerfs to his point game. We feel that instead of burning meter on SS, Vergil players can just as easily burn meter on Devil Trigger to keep safe and apply pressure. SS can remain as a powerful option in the game, just with increased resource cost. Increased resource cost pretty much negates the hyper as being a DHC glitch because no one is going to spend 2 bars for a SS loop (it would still be possible just not the best usage of 2-3 meters) and it also negates high damage combos for Vergil. If he gets the two bars then the hyper actually is more powerful because after SS he gets to use either Blistering Swords or Storm Swords for free. That's actually not a bad trade off but it still requires better meter management from the player.
On the note of snap backs, yes every snap back starts up in 2 frames but not every snap back takes 2 frames to hit the target. That is to say different snap backs have different travel times. To confirm this, you can try to snap Vergil out of Spiral Swords. Some characters can do this, some characters cannot (like Magneto can and Dormammu cannot) and this is due to disparity in travel time. Secondly, some characters have a ton of recovery after snap back meaning they cannot properly set up a mix up after a snap back. Tron is one of them, her snap back lingers on for days and she misses out on a mix up set up because of this. We felt that since this is a universal tool, the travel time and advantage on hit/block should remain the same the only difference should be obviously the range on the snap backs. Maybe we could've worded it better but this was what we wanted.
On the note of Vergil's Spiral Swords, this was a big change to make but it had to be made. Right now SS is too good in terms of utility. It allows you to by pass zoning, it allows you to apply free pressure, it's a semi DHC glitch and it greatly inflates Vergil's damage. In order to change the hyper and certain moves to a point where the hyper is fair.... you would use up all the 10 slots we have for every character. It's not just the hyper itself, as long as it exists loops will exist and because of that you are allowed to link numerous Lunar Phase and Round Trips. Keeping it a LVL1 would require the following nerfs:
1) Reduce the durability per hit of Spiral Swords
2) Reduce the damage per hit of Spiral Swords
3) Reduce the duration of Spiral Swords
4) Reduce the damage of Lunar Phase
5) Cr.H no longer does soft soft knockdown
6) Round Trip does less damage
7) Special damage scaling nerfed from 20% to 10%
This would make SS at lvl1 fair but those are a lot of nerfs to his point game. We feel that instead of burning meter on SS, Vergil players can just as easily burn meter on Devil Trigger to keep safe and apply pressure. SS can remain as a powerful option in the game, just with increased resource cost. Increased resource cost pretty much negates the hyper as being a DHC glitch because no one is going to spend 2 bars for a SS loop (it would still be possible just not the best usage of 2-3 meters) and it also negates high damage combos for Vergil. If he gets the two bars then the hyper actually is more powerful because after SS he gets to use either Blistering Swords or Storm Swords for free. That's actually not a bad trade off but it still requires better meter management from the player.
He doesn't have unblockables, his grenades don't hit low. That would've been too cheap otherwise.
And Karst if you are reading this, I think either we have to arrange an IRC for the committee members or just vote through PMs. This is too difficult to do on the board when someone comes in checks stuff, posts and leaves. We have to find another way to do this.
And Karst if you are reading this, I think either we have to arrange an IRC for the committee members or just vote through PMs. This is too difficult to do on the board when someone comes in checks stuff, posts and leaves. We have to find another way to do this.
Karsticles
Member
All according to plan.
Fair enough; removed.
Good point; I'm curious what others think about this.
We're increasing health by 20%, so this is our small way of off-setting that while also increasing game excitement in some circumstances. People very rarely save their X-Factor as long as possible, and I don't see that changing.
How about you learn to make a fucking DP motion consistently? Even ChrisG has fallen prey to this. Going to the neutral isn't possible when you do something like block, QCB motion. There isn't time in a tight situation; you have to make HCB motions to get past it. It's just bad input reading.
I changed it to this to be more thorough:
*All snapbacks universalized to be 2 frames and +1 on block; attack travel speed instantaneous for all characters; active and recovery frames universalized on snapbacks.
I'm not in favor of this, either, and I'm hoping others side with me.
As GB said, he can still do good damage against single characters. It's a pretty big buff to his neutral game, and I think any circumstantial nerf to his damage is mediocre compared to being able to put more stuff on the screen. He needs it after some of the changes we have made to rushdown characters.
Abandoner. This would completely ruin the character.
I've looked at a lot of Spiral Swords options, and in the end, the reason I support merely making it a 2-bar hyper is that regardless of any changes you make to projectile durability or priority, a Vergil with 5 bars is playing a 1-player game until that meter is gone. One of our goals was to reduce the number of things in this game that lock a player out from playing for extended periods of time. In that spirit, moving Spiral swords to a 2-bar hyper was the only real option. In exchange, we gave it a free form-shift, so you still get the same amount of bang for your buck overall, but you can't just spam Spiral Swords.
Nope.
I was not completely opposed to mashing, I just wanted it to be lowered a bit.
645 is correct though, some character hyper if you don't mash you get to have more time for incoming when you kill a character. That is a strategic decision we cannot take away from the game, no matter how small.
645 is correct though, some character hyper if you don't mash you get to have more time for incoming when you kill a character. That is a strategic decision we cannot take away from the game, no matter how small.
I mean... the whole point of that change was to give command throws priority over regular throws. Right now regular throws are WAY better than command throws, this was something to give command throws a bone. He is right though in that if two command throws happen it would lead to an awkward situation. I would just say then that command throws are normal throw invincible but not command throw invincible.
Sorry. Not sure what I was thinking. I still don't see why Chris needs armor moves.
For general system changes:
Do you think something should be done about the Hyper flash muddling inputs? Maybe the game only reads inputs a few frames (very short window) after the start of the super flash? I'm just thinking about QCF motions and DP motions getting misread when DHCing. I remember people complaining about this before. It also kind of deals with the issue of accidental air backdashes during Hyper flashes as well.
I usually don't have this problem. I know that it can be dealt with by simply delaying your inputs, or adding filled inputs during the Hyper flash to prevent accidental moves, but I figured I'd throw it out there.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
I REALLY like this change.
How else do you solve that 3-7 frame command grabs CONSISTANTLY lose to 1 button 1 frame throws than can be option selected? Shit is dumb.
Also, when have you seen two characters go for a command grab at the same time? I know it happens, but I can't really think of much.
Only solution I can think of to two command grabs whiffing through each other is that command grabs, grab through this new "Throw Immunity". That way whoever's command grab goes into active/in range frames first, wins.
That is exactly what is being discussed between 646 and Karst right now about how input reading works. I don't really know how we can fix this though and would rather just leave it alone than making things possibly worse.
On Chris, right now his punches are garbage. Even for combos you only use like two of them. Giving them armor would allow him some level of respect against hardcore rushdown characters which he doesn't have at the start of the round. Chris is basically a heavy zoner right now and dude destroyed boulders with punches.... it's not even that big of a stretch to give him. Otherwise we are open to suggestions on how to make his punches better in the neutral.
Karsticles
Member
I don't see the difference between all of us agreeing to be on between like 5-6PM on Saturday posting and all of us agreeing to be on IRC between 5-6PM.
I am also not in favor of Chris having an armored punch.
I'd like to think that the hyper flash input reading getting fixed falls under the other input fix I put in. The same sort of stuff causes it. Example of this game's bad input reading:
1) Dormammu is at full screen charging Dark Spells (qcb.M)
2) Dr. Doom does Photon Array for some random damage.
3) Dormammu does qcf.AA to punish with Chaotic Flame.
4) 100% of the time, Stalking Flare will come out instead.
I've tested this extensively. It doesn't make sense, since I never made a qcb.AA motion. Somehow the qcb.A combines with the qcf.AA to create qcb.AA in the game's code. Instead I have to do hcf.AA.
Any command grab that has more than 1F startup has a pretty large range. I've never seen a command grab actually lose to a normal grab. I would like to remove this change because I don't think it really has a purpose in practice.
I just don't think he needs better punches in the neutral. His normals are already good, and his throw game is strong. Maybe you could have his less useful punches cause crumple to standing opponents?
This would allow certain pairings to get tag combos, and would provide for some unique combo extensions. Not necessarily useful for the neutral, but again, I don't think that he needs them to be. It even kind of works with the source material, since Chris' punch combo on Wesker caused him to crumple to the floor.
Karsticles
Member
Why not just do this all in here?
Think about the OT5!
I too have had this happen with X23 where i do a srk motion to punish supers with her full invincible super but instead get a qcb read
SolarPowered
Member
At the very least. I hate this as a pad player.
biosnake20
Member
He should also have a spidey sense counter hyper.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I love mashing hypers.
Command throws are now normal-throw invincible. And they already whiff when two command grabs hit at the same frame.
Command throws are now normal-throw invincible. And they already whiff when two command grabs hit at the same frame.
Karsticles
Member
Shall I delete all three of these?:
"God's Beard!"
Member
Yes
Absolutely, it's an aspect of the character completely ignored. However, I believe these changes being discussed here do not include new moves.
SolarPowered
Member
God no
At least reduce the amount of mashing required. It's not that crazy a request. This way those of us who play more than fighter don't have to destroy our hands and people who want the mixup potential still have theirs.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73562713]I love mashing hypers.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a fantastic reason to force everyone else into doing something they don't like.
Karsticles
Member
Added:
I wasn't happy about it at first, but now I'm addicted.
While learning Skullgirls at UFGT9: *mashmashmashmashmash*
Opponent: "You know that doesn't do anything, right?"
Me: "Yeah, but it makes me feel like I'm doing more damage. Plus, it's better to get used to mashing in every game, and have it do nothing in some games, than to forget to do it in Marvel."
Opponent: "You know that doesn't do anything, right?"
Me: "Yeah, but it makes me feel like I'm doing more damage. Plus, it's better to get used to mashing in every game, and have it do nothing in some games, than to forget to do it in Marvel."
I remember the first WNF with MvC3 (where Sentinel required an additional buy-in fee), Justin would still mash during Hailstorm even though it did nothing. For some reason, it made me happy.
SolarPowered
Member
Excellent
If this change pulls through I would try harder to make sure I mash when the time comes.
How did they react? I'd probably just find it weird even if what you said sounds perfectly rational.
Feel free to drop in on the OT if you are still looking for Painwheel tips. Krackatoa could probably be helpful if he has a PS3. Sucks that you don't have a capable laptop. The beta is constantly changing things up. Very exciting times.
Karsticles
Member
Indeed!
I mash like a madman.
I'm going to start playing it again more once the patch comes out to PS3. I need to learn bnbs for my characters, and I hate having to re-learn that stuff. So I will just focus on other things for now and then come back to it.
I think everyone just gave a friendly laugh when I explained my reasoning.
Killa Sasa
Member
Trust, a Spider-Sense install that was either basically Vale of Mist (Ammy's slow) or projectile invulnerability (loooooool) for a metered amount of time would be so silly and pretty true to the character.
Next time hopefully. It's Parker's one "holy shit" power when you think about it in the scheme of Marvel. That and him saying DO YOUR JOB needs to be in.
Karsticles
Member
I thought about making Ultimate Web air OK.
Yes.
Crumple on punches sound great mostly because he is already played with Spencer. Will definitely bring it up again.
Hahaha, I'm pretty sure I mash during hypers when I play skullgirls too. I didn't even think about it until you brought it up.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
It would have some purpose.
More command grabs would be attempted in neutral situations now that the startup is safer.
Command Grabs would be a viable reversal to attempted throw resets. (i.e. why are you trying to throw Haggar again?)
Karsticles
Member
This makes me think that we really should take the change out. This should not be happening.
Do the other committee members agree?
"God's Beard!"
Member
It makes me sad when people mash throw out of command grab setups because Thor or whoever didn't get the 1 frame timing.
I like the idea of it being a throw reversal because they'd lose to meaty attacks and delayed throws anyway. It can be baited.
I used to not really like mashing that much until I realized you could mash with only one button. Now every time I do Million Dollars, it's like I'm playing DMC again!
Also, going through the master list to pick out some changes that I feel need better clarification/adjustments. Will post again when I'm done.
Also, going through the master list to pick out some changes that I feel need better clarification/adjustments. Will post again when I'm done.
kevo_huevo
Member
i've always wondered that about mashing, but i've never bothered to test mashing different ways for the duration of a super:
mash only one button: HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
mash multiple buttons: LMHMLHMHMLHMHLHMHMHLHMHLM
mash buttons simultaneously, rapidly: (LMH)(LMH)(LMH)(LMH)
i've always done the middle though.
Mashing for more damage is a terrible idea to anyone but peripheral manufacturers. I have no beef with people using turbo in this case. They should take it out of future games, I don't care if not mashing gives extra time to set up. It doesn't justify a bad idea. No one was asking for this.
JeTmAn81
Member
I think mashing does add something to the gameplay experience. When you know you need to mash to get the maximum damage which can mean the difference between killing a character or letting them live (uh oh, pixel Zero!), it adds a level of tension and excitement to the game.
This reminds me of how much I hate backdashing with Strider into an animal call (qcb.ATK) and getting a teleport (qcb.RSRK). I have to do a half circle back motion to get the animal to come out.
Karsticles
Member
I admit that I do love mashing and then thinking to myself "Woooo look at all that Chaotic Flame damage!" :-D
BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN!
Meh. Just make different levels of supers then or let people hold down a button and let go earlier/later for the same effect. I don't wanna play Track n Field or a glorified QTE in a fighting game.
Karsticles
Member
COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
PM me your e-mail address so we can all work out a time to solidify changes this weekend.
PM me your e-mail address so we can all work out a time to solidify changes this weekend.
JeTmAn81
Member
I am disappointed it's called a "committee", and not "The Marvel-GAF Illuminati".