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[gundamzeta209]

Oh fuck off.

This *is* about morality, just as much as it's about European and Arab self interest.

Yes, there are probably bloodier conflicts we don't get involved in; but just because there is a pleasant convergence of objectives here doesn't lessen the fact that these strikes are morally valid.

A pleasant convergence of Objectives? how cold...

Helping the rebellion is a secondary objective. If that. A stable Libya is the primary objective. If Stability meant allowing Ghaddafi to wipe out 10 million people, the world "community" would sit by and allow it to happen. Piggy-backing some small moral intent onto resource-based offensive has never justified a war in the past and it wont do it today.


The only convergence is that is happening is... 1) Libya is currently too weak put up a defense against the Western powers. 2) there's a lot of oil. 3) Because of recent economic events, and declining reserves, the world cannot afford to lose even the 9th largest field to instability.


If Peak Oil! is real, and I think most people agree that it is, then more of this is likely to come in the future. I don't think we should hide behind euphemistic language like I see in this thread.

 

[Walshicus]

Like Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc., etc.

Do you know what the greatest tragedy was in the first Gulf War?

That we didn't support Iraqi rebels who were attempting to overthrow Saddam. A homegrown revolution that needed outside help to eliminate a ruthless dictator. We did nothing and untold numbers of civilians died.

There are parallels between Libya today and Iraq - but Iraq in 1991, not 2003.

A pleasant convergence of Objectives? how cold...

Helping the rebellion is a secondary objective. If that. A stable Libya is the primary objective. If Stability meant allowing Ghaddafi to wipe out 10 million people, the world "community" would sit by and allow it to happen. Piggy-backing some small moral intent onto resource-based offensive has never justified a war in the past and it wont do it today.


The only convergence is that is happening is... 1) Libya is currently too weak put up a defense against the Western powers. 2) there's a lot of oil. 3) Because of recent economic events, and declining reserves, the world cannot afford to lose even the 9th largest field to instability.

Idiocy. If the West were to have done nothing this rebellion would have ended in the "cleansing" of Benghazi and the resumption of oil exports in days. By intervening we have accepted that our supplies of oil will be disrupted for longer. This is why the oil argument is moronic.

 

[Godslay]

This whole thing is just Iraq deja-vu all over again.


1. Western countries military action in Arab world
2. Dictator refuse to surrender, rally his own people
3. Prolong military action, civilians casualties increase
4. Dictators/Arab medias spin Western Christians vs Arab Muslim propaganda
5. Arab world got angry with Western world, etc, etc, etc

the same bullshit all over again.

I say let Arab world solve their own fucking problems. They dealt their own card, let them live with it, we stay the fuck out of this. Very disappointed that Canada and Italy got involved in this. Smart decision by Germany

Number one is incorrect, this time it involves the Arab League, as well as backing by the UN. Iraq had neither and was considered a unilateral intervention. Broadly you are correct, but looking at the actual details you are wrong.

Hiding in a hole isn't considered rallying your people. The same with Gaddafi, he lost the will of the people a long time ago.

Iraq is a occupation, Libya is by definition considered a multilateral humanitarian intervention. Quite a big difference.

Number four we have no real control over. If they want to make it this way they can. The real issue here is liberation, not Christians versus Muslims.

Number five if you have been paying attention the Arab world is in the midst of a revolution. . Most of the people are looking for a change. So while they might be mad at the west, it appears they are infuriated with their own leadership.

 

[RustyNails]

Idiocy. If the West were to have done nothing this rebellion would have ended in the "cleansing" of Benghazi and the resumption of oil exports in days. By intervening we have accepted that our supplies of oil will be disrupted for longer. This is why the oil argument is moronic.

You know it's not worth responding when people don't see the self-evident contradiction in their own posts.

 

[teruterubozu]

Do you know what the greatest tragedy was in the first Gulf War?

That we didn't support Iraqi rebels who were attempting to overthrow Saddam. A homegrown revolution that needed outside help to eliminate a ruthless dictator. We did nothing and untold numbers of civilians died.

There are parallels between Libya today and Iraq - but Iraq in 1991, not 2003.

That was exactly GWB's line of thinking. Finish Dad's job.

This whole thread is like a broken record.

 

[Canova]

You forgot a couple of more points above point number 1. This conflict did not start with UN authorization for the No Fly Zone. I'm tired of responding to posts like these.

and who pushed for it, U.S and U.K, .....yeah same culprit

and US companies have no stake in Libya's oil

so what's the exit strategy here? no fly-zone, like he's gonna follow that

what if Ghadafi won't stop at all? all-out invasion? yeah we've heard that before

MIND OUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. that's the bottom line

 

[Facism]

Who was worse? Bush or Gadaffi?

 

[Walshicus]

That was exactly GWB's line of thinking. Finish Dad's job.

And it was a failure because the "opportunity" was manufactured. It's hard to justify an assault on a tyrant for actions taken a decade after the massacres in the name of preventing imminent threats to civilian safety.

MIND OUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. that's the bottom line

Fuck you. If a few missiles and spec-ops on the ground can stop an army from massacring a civilian population, we should be obliged to commit them.

 

[Drkirby]

Can you imagine how awesome that is though? Imagine having a cop just hand you a fucking shoulder mounted grenade launcher and a load of ammo, and give you free reign to shoot shit. First thing I would do is shoot him and then:


1. Blow the SHIT out of people who I didn't like in school/work.

2. Go to Harvey Nichols and steal some designer clothes and BLOW UP any store clerk who tells me to pay. Would go to the oyster bar in Selfridges and demand that he give me a tub of caviar. I've never had caviar but I want to have a bath in that shit.

3. Go to a national park and blow up deers. And I actually LOVE animals. Actually I would ride a deer whilst shooting other deers.

4. Go to a Ferrari dealership and steal a car. Shoot grenade launcher out of the window whilst I drive. Also do the same with a helicopter.

5. Find sexy famous women and threaten to blow them to smithereens if they didn't have sex with me. Actually this would go first.

You would likely be shot in the back by the cop the second you tried to leave to do #1.

 

[[Nintex]]

Do you know what the greatest tragedy was in the first Gulf War?

That we didn't support Iraqi rebels who were attempting to overthrow Saddam. A homegrown revolution that needed outside help to eliminate a ruthless dictator. We did nothing and untold numbers of civilians died.

There are parallels between Libya today and Iraq - but Iraq in 1991, not 2003.

There's a video somewhere in which Rumsfeld explains why they didn't invade Iraq back in the gulf war. He said something along the lines that they couldn't just roll tanks into Iraq and end the war because there were many different groups out to power and they'd probably end up in a civil war.

 

[teruterubozu]

Who was worse? Bush or Gadaffi?

Cheney

 

[gundamzeta209]

Idiocy. If the West were to have done nothing this rebellion would have ended in the "cleansing" of Benghazi and the resumption of oil exports in days. By intervening we have accepted that our supplies of oil will be disrupted for longer. This is why the oil argument is moronic.

You're assuming that the cleansing operation would have been swift and almost concise. Get real.

 

[Snake]

That was exactly GWB's line of thinking. Finish Dad's job.

This whole thread is like a broken record.

And the central difference, which has been said time and time again, is that Saddam wasn't poised to slaughter his people en masse in 2003, while Gaddafi was one day away from doing so in Benghazi.

Not to mention the WMD lie that the Bush Admin perpetrated on the American people, for which you can find no genuine equivalent in this situation.

 

[avaya]

and who pushed for it, U.S and U.K, .....yeah same culprit

and US companies have no stake in Libya's oil

so what's the exit strategy here? no fly-zone, like he's gonna follow that

what if Ghadafi won't stop at all? all-out invasion? yeah we've heard that before

MIND OUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. that's the bottom line

Get with the news seriously. It was actually the French who pushed for this the hardest with the UK. The French and British have massive oil contracts in Libya. Why would they push for it if they wanted to keep these contracts?

The US didn't want to have anything to do with it till very recently.

Mind your own fucking business is a doctrine followed by clowns who have no idea what inter-dependence means.

Sir Fragula's comparison to the Iraqi rebellion in 1991 is spot on. The situation is almost a carbon copy. The UN force abandoned them, they didn't have a mandate to support them.

This time they do.

 

[Binabik15]

Because he has his own opinion? smh. I can confirm that a good amount of people living in countries like the DDR did like their lives. They especially liked that live wasn't about materialism like in the capitalist countries.

Uhm, what?

The Montagsdemonstrationen didn´t happen for nothing.

Except for some nostalgic "Everything was better back then, the people prettier, the air cleaner, blablabla" mumblings I´ve NEVER heard someone looking back kindly on the DDR. Well, expect for some neo-nazi idiots who don´t like all dem immigrants in the unified Germany.

On topic:

I guess the saying "stuck between a rock and a hard place" is appropriate here?

I don´t like the fact that it had to come to an outside military intervention, but the UN looking the other way like they usually do would be galling, too.

I don´t buy the into the "rebels are all Islamist extremists/just a minority" spiel, neither do I think that (Western) outside intervention isn´t about the oil, but I don´t think that´s the only reason, either.

I´m just wondering whether the jets have enough range to make their presence known over Bahrain, eh?

Wait, they´re our friends...

 

[Ether_Snake]

Of course the Arab league will once again give the US approval of its actions, and then publicly say they oppose it to save face. Right now they would LOVE another "imperialist America is once again killing us all" sentiment to run through the region so they can keep people focused on the Imperialist USA instead of their own corrupt governments.

 

[teruterubozu]

eh, it's another clusterfuck. Hooray for I don't know what anymore.

 

[Roude Leiw]

more pics:

 

[nubbe]

The Libyan ambassador requested a NFZ, the Libyan people requested a NFZ, the Arab League endorsed a NFZ and the UN legalized a NFZ.

The Anglo-French are leading the operation while the US is providing support.
There really is no parallel to any morned invasion the US has done.

 

[j_k_redtail]

Gaddafi wants to shoot then down, obviously. And force Allies to shoot civilians, eh?

First thing I thought of:

Spoiler

good movie

 

[RustyNails]

and who pushed for it, U.S and U.K, .....yeah

and US companies have no stake in Libya's oil

so what's the exit strategy here? no fly-zone, yeah like he's gonna follow that

what if Ghadafi won't stop at all? all-out invasion? yeah we've heard that before

MIND OUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. that's the bottom line

I want to ask you a serious question: How closely have you been following the Libyan situation since the first pro-Democracy protests in Benghazi in early February? I will respond by using some of my earlier posts. If you had been following the events unfold even with nonchalant interest, you'd realize that this operation is not some grand design of the western powers. As a matter of fact, US was being unforceful and indecisive in the whole thing leading up to Clinton's visit to Libya.

The very first thing to take into consideration is the fact that NATO action over there is a response, not unprovoked aggression. The entire Muslim world is in favor with the rebels, who were nothing but peaceful pro-democracy demonstrators prior to being shelled by Gaddafi. This is because every media outlet in the Arab world sans state run broadcasting has been sympathetic with the plight of innocent Libyans being bombed by Gaddafi's air force. Secondly, as things deteriorated, we were looking at a full blown massacre. Things took an extremely troubling turn when Gaddafi gave a 48 hour ultimatum to Rebels in Benghazi (second most populous city) and his rhetoric contained even more worrisome language, such as "cleansing", "showing no mercy", "hunt down like rats door to door". This 48 hour ultimatum gave the UNSC required impetus to act immediately. The situation looked like foxes surrounding a henhouse. The fact that US was seen as indecisive over the creation of NFZ was creating discord in the region, leaving some to believe that USA doesn't really care about Muslims and wants a continued relationship with Gaddafi and his oil fields. But these perceptions were shattered when USA ponied up support quickly after Clinton's meeting with rebels and spearheaded NFZ resolution in UNSC. The NFZ had the unprecedented support of UN, Arab League, OIC, European Union and African Union, something Iraq war 2003 was lacking dearly. This NATO intervention is seen as an answer to rebels' prayers, who have already won favor with the Muslim world. THIS is the context for Operation Odyssey Dawn. Today I was glued to CNN all morning and guess what, Arwa Damon reporting from Benghazi used the exact same words as I did. She said the residents of Benghazi felt that their prayers were answered and a massacre has been averted, thanks to France and NATO's leadership. There was a very palpable fear of being slaughtered in the streets by Gaddafi forces.

Now you are correct about having an exit-strategy in war situations. We also don't know if Gaddafi will even fall. But the problem is, we're not even entering the place on ground, so we don't need an exit-strategy. This is an aerial campaign analogous to Gulf War 1 (Operation Desert Storm), Operation Deny Flight and Operation Allied Assault, so we do not need an exit-strategy. What we need is an 'end state', and that state at the moment is unclear. Secondly, the Rebels took control of almost all of Libya prior to the NATO intervention. They were only pushed back due to sustained bombardment and shelling of their towns. There's no reason to believe that they will not be able to mount a counter-offensive under the shield of NATO air cover. All the indicators point towards rebels retaking the offense, and it's only a matter of time before Gaddafi's military apparatus is completely disabled.

You're assuming that the cleansing operation would have been swift and almost concise. Get real.

So you're saying we should have risked it? Lets see how many people he'd have cleansed?

 

[[Nintex]]

The Libyan ambassador requested a NFZ, the Libyan people requested a NFZ, the Arab League endorsed a NFZ and the UN legalized a NFZ.

The Anglo-French are leading the operation while the US is providing support.
There really is no parallel to any morned invasion the US has done.

What the Arab league wanted was a no fly zone, what the EU and US got was a go ahead for everything that might improve the safety of civilians. The AL expected the operation to be based on air patrols and perhaps the destruction of AA guns and missle systems. They didn't expect multiple bombing runs, 100 tomahawk missles and a testing ground for new jets.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Of course the Arab league will once again give the US approval of its actions, and then publicly say they oppose it to save face. Right now they would LOVE another "imperialist America is once again killing us all" sentiment to run through the region so they can keep people focused on the Imperialist USA instead of their own corrupt governments.

This post is truth.

 

[Walshicus]

What the Arab league wanted was a no fly zone, what the EU and US got was a go ahead for everything that might improve the safety of civilians. The AL expected the operation to be based on air patrols and perhaps the destruction of AA guns and missle systems. They didn't expect multiple bombing runs, 100 tomahawk missles and a testing ground for new jets.

It's been reported by some news channels that the head of the Arab League's comments were misquoted.

I want to ask you a serious question: How closely have you been following the Libyan situation since the first pro-Democracy protests in Benghazi in early February?

It *is* curious how a lot of the people absent from the Arab Spring threads have reacted here.

 

[gundamzeta209]

Get with the news seriously. It was actually the French who pushed for this the hardest with the UK. The French and British have massive oil contracts in Libya. Why would they push for it if they wanted to keep these contracts?

The US didn't want to have anything to do with it till very recently.

Mind your own fucking business is a doctrine followed by clowns who have no idea what inter-dependence means.

Sir Fragula's comparison to the Iraqi rebellion in 1991 is spot on. The situation is almost a carbon copy. The UN force abandoned them, they didn't have a mandate to support them.

This time they do.

Fuck you.



i want to see how Europeans respond to the world getting involved in their affairs. Ghaddafi is absolutely right this is nothing short of a Foul chemical trail of colonialism. That's what this whole Globalist system is about. the West is in Charge and has the most say, and everyone else must obey. The Africa Union said they did not want the world to attack. They were ignored.

The French and British are pushing for this because of those Oil contracts. Your Armchair speculation may have predicted a quick end to the rebellion, but much smarter people higher up may have predicted something else based on information that you or I don't have access to.

 

[Sealda]

What stops that Air Carrier from getting Surface to Surface missile straight onto it? Does, it have all kinds of things to detect wether or not a SSM is inbound?

 

[Mgoblue201]

Yeah, but the Reagan bombing was a joke. We hit his brother's tent by mistake and said oh well, we're done here.

Yes, but your assertion is that we ignored Libya, which is very strange to make. Gaddafi has been a thorn in the side of Europe and America for decades, and at any point I don't think it can be argued that they didn't want him deposed. The obvious difference between 1986 and 2011 is the huge rebellion element that has a real chance of winning. It's obviously been an organic movement too. Hopefully, more than protecting civilians, the international force can tip the balance of power in the country.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Fuck you.



i want to see how Europeans respond to the world getting involved in their affairs. Ghaddafi is absolutely right this is nothing short of a Foul chemical trail of colonialism. That's what this whole Globalist system is about. the West is in Charge and has the most say, and everyone else must obey. The Africa Union said they did not want the world to attack. They were ignored.

The French and British are pushing for this because of those Oil contracts. Your Armchair speculation may have predicted a quick end to the rebellion, but much smarter people higher up may have predicted something else based on information that you or I don't have access to.

The West is in charge eh? I'd like to see the West even DARE say something like this to the Far East and Northern Asia.

 

[raphier]

AL Jazeera shows heavy antiair gunfire taking place above Tripoli at the moment.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Fuck you.



i want to see how Europeans respond to the world getting involved in their affairs. Ghaddafi is absolutely right this is nothing short of a Foul chemical trail of colonialism. That's what this whole Globalist system is about. the West is in Charge and has the most say, and everyone else must obey. The Africa Union said they did not want the world to attack. They were ignored.

The French and British are pushing for this because of those Oil contracts. Your Armchair speculation may have predicted a quick end to the rebellion, but much smarter people higher up may have predicted something else based on information that you or I don't have access to.

hehe neogaf has a defense force for everyone and everything.

 

[Walshicus]

i want to see how Europeans respond to the world getting involved in their affairs.

What, like in former Yugoslavia?

If our governments start massacring our civilians, you can bet your arse we'll support foreign intervention to prevent that.

 

[j_k_redtail]

It's been reported by some news channels that the head of the Arab League's comments were misquoted.

Absolutely needs to be reiterated:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html

Meanwhile William Hague has said that he believes Amr Moussa was misquoted in his criticism of allied air attacks.
...
Amr Moussa has apparently told the UK government that he was misquoted earlier on. The Secretary General of the Arab League apparently said that his group supported a no-fly zone, not the air strikes that have taken place, but he now says that he was simply reiterating their position that Libyan civilians must be protected.

 

[RustyNails]

Fuck you.



i want to see how Europeans respond to the world getting involved in their affairs. Ghaddafi is absolutely right this is nothing short of a Foul chemical trail of colonialism. That's what this whole Globalist system is about. the West is in Charge and has the most say, and everyone else must obey. The Africa Union said they did not want the world to attack. They were ignored.

The French and British are pushing for this because of those Oil contracts. Your Armchair speculation may have predicted a quick end to the rebellion, but much smarter people higher up may have predicted something else based on information that you or I don't have access to.

Col. Muammar Gaddafi posts on NeoGAF confirmed.

 

[raphier]

Col. Muammar Gaddafi posts on NeoGAF confirmed.

Quite plausible, he just recently created his account. How's things going in that bunker, mister?

 

[Walshicus]

Col. Muammar Gaddafi posts on NeoGAF confirmed.

I guess we better give back the drugs Al Qæda gave us then.

 

[RustyNails]

I guess we better give back the drugs Al Qæda gave us then.

And those huge crates of Nescafe.

 

[Godslay]

I guess we better give back the drugs Al Qæda gave us then.

Wait... so does this mean that Al Qaeda is now part of the west's coalition? My have things have changed.

 

[Ether_Snake]

What the Arab league wanted was a no fly zone, what the EU and US got was a go ahead for everything that might improve the safety of civilians. The AL expected the operation to be based on air patrols and perhaps the destruction of AA guns and missle systems. They didn't expect multiple bombing runs, 100 tomahawk missles and a testing ground for new jets.

Bullshit.

Just like the Arab world doesn't want Israel and the US to bomb Iran amirite?

 

[Reneledarker]

Using a geopolitical analysis, Harvey Starr opportunity and willingness can be used here:

The European Nations have the opportunity to intervene because they are practically a border whit Libya, and they have the willingness to do it because:

I.- Oil, witch is a national interest resource.
II.- Gadaffi, as a leader, he's unreliable.
III.- Looks like the rebels want the EU and USA to intervene since they know they can not win by themselves.
IV.- The support form the Arab League is there, witch gives a bit more of legitimacy to the NFZ.
V.- A good portion of the population in the EU and USA are in favor of helping the rebels, witch gives more willingness to intervene.

 

[j_k_redtail]

Meanwhile, Yemen's president fires entire cabinet

 

[avaya]

Fuck you.



i want to see how Europeans respond to the world getting involved in their affairs. Ghaddafi is absolutely right this is nothing short of a Foul chemical trail of colonialism. That's what this whole Globalist system is about. the West is in Charge and has the most say, and everyone else must obey. The Africa Union said they did not want the world to attack. They were ignored.

The French and British are pushing for this because of those Oil contracts. Your Armchair speculation may have predicted a quick end to the rebellion, but much smarter people higher up may have predicted something else based on information that you or I don't have access to.

You seem to think I should some how be ashamed of the West caring about the oil. I am not ashamed. It affects me. It affects everyone around me. So I have an interest. My government has an interest. They look after my interests. So no, I am not ashamed of materialism.

Letting Gaddafi slaughter the rebels is a far less intrusive method of stabilising the 750k/day production from Libya than freezing the battle lines and choosing a side in an internal conflict. The UN has no idea who will rise to power in the country if Gaddafi goes. The level of uncertainty has been raised to another level entirely. The opposing argument is intellectually bankrupt and full of contradiction.

You actually ascribe credibility to the African Union while peddling conspiracy theory bullshit like it's fact. You are comical.

 

[Walshicus]

Using a geopolitical analysis, Harvey Starr opportunity and willingness can be used here:

The European Nations have the opportunity to intervene because they are practically a border whit Libya, and they have the willingness to do it because:

I.- Oil, witch is a national interest resource.
II.- Gadaffi, as a leader, he's unreliable.
III.- Looks like the rebels want the EU and USA to intervene since they know they can not win by themselves.
IV.- The support form the Arab League is there, witch gives a bit more of legitimacy to the NFZ.
V.- A good portion of the population in the EU and USA are in favor of helping the rebels, witch gives more willingness to intervene.

Can agree with a lot of this. Though I really do think the oil aspect is overplayed. By itself action works to increase the oil risk. And point V can be expanded as there is both significant support for the humanitarian aspect of this from the European population as well European political élites.

 

[bill0527]

Please forgive my ignorance ahead of time because I have not kept up much with this situation so I don't know all the details.

But why in god's name are we (the U.S) participating in the bombing of Libya?

Don't we have enough problems around the globe right now? Why are spending more of our money getting involved in another conflict?

Furthermore, why are France and Britain the countries that seem to be taking point in this operation?

I thought I read that France dropped the first bomb. Are you kidding me??? FRANCE???

You know, the same France who refused to support the U.S. in Iraq. I've contended all along that France and Germany refused their support in Iraq because they had their own contracts with Iraq and Saddam Hussein, along with having their hands in the Oil For Food cookie jar. Now all of a sudden France seems to be spearheading the bombing of Libya and wants our support? FUCK YOU FRANCE. And fuck anyone else who thinks the U.S. should be involved in this.

And don't give me any of your plays on morality either. Saddam Hussein killed many more of his own people in much more brutal ways, but you couldn't be bothered to give the U.S. any support when they asked for it.

So again, I'm quite prepared to get flamed and told that I've got it all wrong, because I am quite ignorant of the situation, but these are my initial thoughts on what I've seen on the surface.

 

[Mgoblue201]

Fuck you.



i want to see how Europeans respond to the world getting involved in their affairs. Ghaddafi is absolutely right this is nothing short of a Foul chemical trail of colonialism. That's what this whole Globalist system is about. the West is in Charge and has the most say, and everyone else must obey. The Africa Union said they did not want the world to attack. They were ignored.

The French and British are pushing for this because of those Oil contracts. Your Armchair speculation may have predicted a quick end to the rebellion, but much smarter people higher up may have predicted something else based on information that you or I don't have access to.

You still need to give a coherent explanation for how this will benefit the Europeans, preferably with hard numbers. Regardless of whether the rebellion would have held out, Gaddafi was quickly gaining control of the country, and Saudi Arabia was able to make up for the oil lost by Libya. Now there is the risk of a protracted battle in which there is no real leader of the country. The danger of losing the oil supply seems far more palpable, simply due to the fact that this is a far more even battle, unless you can demonstrate that this isn't true. I'm willing to consider the argument.

And does the opinion of the AU mean more than the thoughts of the rebels inside Libya?

 

[teruterubozu]

Please forgive my ignorance ahead of time because I have not kept up much with this situation so I don't know all the details.

But why in god's name are we (the U.S) participating in the bombing of Libya?

Don't we have enough problems around the globe right now? Why are spending more of our money getting involved in another conflict?

Furthermore, why are France and Britain the countries that seem to be taking point in this operation?

I thought I read that France dropped the first bomb. Are you kidding me??? FRANCE???

You know, the same France who refused to support the U.S. in Iraq. I've contended all along that France and Germany refused their support in Iraq because they had their own contracts with Iraq and Saddam Hussein, along with having their hands in the Oil For Food cookie jar. Now all of a sudden France seems to be spearheading the bombing of Libya and wants our support? FUCK YOU FRANCE. And fuck anyone else who thinks the U.S. should be involved in this.

And don't give me any of your plays on morality either. Saddam Hussein killed many more of his own people in much more brutal ways, but you couldn't be bothered to give the U.S. any support when they asked for it.

So again, I'm quite prepared to get flamed and told that I've got it all wrong, because I am quite ignorant of the situation, but these are my initial thoughts on what I've seen on the surface.

All I can gather from arguments here is that it's a good opportunity, whatever the fuck that means.

 

[WickedAngel]

Please forgive my ignorance ahead of time because I have not kept up much with this situation so I don't know all the details.

But why in god's name are we (the U.S) participating in the bombing of Libya?

Don't we have enough problems around the globe right now? Why are spending more of our money getting involved in another conflict?

Furthermore, why are France and Britain the countries that seem to be taking point in this operation?

I thought I read that France dropped the first bomb. Are you kidding me??? FRANCE???

You know, the same France who refused to support the U.S. in Iraq. I've contended all along that France and Germany refused their support in Iraq because they had their own contracts with Iraq and Saddam Hussein, along with having their hands in the Oil For Food cookie jar. Now all of a sudden France seems to be spearheading the bombing of Libya and wants our support? FUCK YOU FRANCE. And fuck anyone else who thinks the U.S. should be involved in this.

And don't give me any of your plays on morality either. Saddam Hussein killed many more of his own people in much more brutal ways, but you couldn't be bothered to give the U.S. any support when they asked for it.

So again, I'm quite prepared to get flamed and told that I've got it all wrong, because I am quite ignorant of the situation, but these are my initial thoughts on what I've seen on the surface.

Actually, fuck you for being stupid enough to compare Iraq with Libya.

 

[Y2Kev]

Everyone needs to take a major step back. There are multiple instances of "fuck you" on this page. This is not an acceptable form of discourse.

If you want to continue posting, please treat others with respect...even if you think they are nuts.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Can agree with a lot of this. Though I really do think the oil aspect is overplayed. By itself action works to increase the oil risk. And point V can be expanded as there is both significant support for the humanitarian aspect of this from the European population as well European political élites.

Not if you just spent the last month shitting on Gaddafi because you thought he was going to be easily ousted. The guy is just crazy enough to start an oil embargo, which would be disastrous for BP, for example.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Wtach BBC or CNN now

Seems like they're organising a march

We have a dude from African nations here, this seems like it's going to be a messy one

 

[Chichikov]

Fuck you.



i want to see how Europeans respond to the world getting involved in their affairs. Ghaddafi is absolutely right this is nothing short of a Foul chemical trail of colonialism. That's what this whole Globalist system is about. the West is in Charge and has the most say, and everyone else must obey. The Africa Union said they did not want the world to attack. They were ignored.

The French and British are pushing for this because of those Oil contracts. Your Armchair speculation may have predicted a quick end to the rebellion, but much smarter people higher up may have predicted something else based on information that you or I don't have access to.

The historical irony here is almost too much to bear.
The world was always involved with Libya.
Libya as we currently know it is a direct product of western powers meddling, both direct (Italy and to a lesser extent the British) and indirect (every major power who supported, traded with and enabled Gaddafi).

You (and Gaddafi) want the world to stay involve just the right amount - supply him with weapons and buy his oil.

If anything, the world is almost morally obliged to make amends.