Battlechili
Banned
I still can't beat
. Pretty sure I've fought him 20+ times now. I dunno. I've lost count.
sans
-
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Undertale |OT| Indie RPG with determination and spider bake sales
- Thread starter Earthpainting
- Start date
For that armor it's worth it tbh.
No but like after she's in, you just shut the game off. TemTale.
Yo, top of the page guy, spoiler tag that nonsense. There's got to be someone who hasn't already had that ruined for them by Youtube recommendations.
A run where you alternate between conversations with Burgerpants and Bratty and Catty, long after they've exhausted their dialogue, into eternity. It's called "Twitter."
A run where you alternate between conversations with Burgerpants and Bratty and Catty, long after they've exhausted their dialogue, into eternity. It's called "Twitter."
lukeskymac
Member
What? Her fight is not that hard. Mettaton is harder,
Omega Flowey
the Undying
sans
Yes.
Modest Mauser
Member
Tem comes back from college and you're gone. She looks around and blinks a couple of times.
"Undertale" plays.
A single tear pools up and rolls sideways off of her face and floats off into the distance.
Credits.
Tge credits show Tem on her journey to find you, degree in hand.
I wasn't trying to guilt trip anybody, i was legitimately asking about their feelings because i believe the writing of the game is very good (by VG standards) regarding characterization and getting you to attach to these character, i sure know i grew very attached to them, it wasn't a "boo, you're bad for playing like that!" question, it was a genuine "how did it make you feel?" question, no different from asking, i dunno, "did you cry at the end of mother 3?" And we got a good answer to the question afterwards.
For the record, i think "it's just a video game" IS the lame answer, that's the sort of attitude why people don't respect video games as an art form, in my opinion.
Durrzerker
Banned
After playing through Undertale completely, without delving into the spoilers and such - I think it was a cool game, but I don't think I'm as impressed with it as a lot of people seem to be. Mechanically, it's very clever and interesting with the mercy system and turn-based bullet time and all, but I feel like the interesting bits of the story are undercut by how simplistic and saccharine the themes are. It basically boils down to IF YOU ARE RELENTLESSLY NICE NO MATTER WHAT, THINGS WILL ALWAYS WORK OUT FOR THE BEST, and VIOLENCE IS NEVER, EVER OKAY. And I don't think that's a very nuanced message, nor an accurate one.
Compared to something like LISA - which I think is kind of similar on the surface, but tackles much more complex themes - I came away a little disappointed in Undertale's 'serious' aspects, though I still feel the humor was on point.
Compared to something like LISA - which I think is kind of similar on the surface, but tackles much more complex themes - I came away a little disappointed in Undertale's 'serious' aspects, though I still feel the humor was on point.
There's seriously no better way you could have phrased "do you still feel awesome knowing you likely murdered everyone afterwards?" Cause that sounds super different to those examples you gave. :/
Anyway, I agreed to not argue about this anymore so I'll leave it at that.
This is wrong.
You HAVE to fight Asgore and Flowey, and no matter what you do, you can't save Asriel. Things do end happily, but it isn't perfect, and you violence is okay as long as you don't kill. You can even spare enemies by beating them up until they no longer want to fight
Durrzerker
Banned
Neither of those address my concerns,
because you don't kill either of them yourself. The game basically emphasizes IT'S NEVER OKAY TO KILL EVEN IN SELF-DEFENSE
OniBarubary
Banned
I am always eternally amused how funny the main character's face is in fan art, just...blank and emotionless while all this shit happens. Cracks me right up
You said violence. You can be violent as long as you don't kill. If you were talking about killing fine, but that isn't what you said.
Durrzerker
Banned
The Bankslammer
Member
to be honest i think that the game's discouraging of killing is less the game's message, and rather a component of how it conveys a different message
don't want to say too much but if you're curious it might be worth trying out a genocide run? i think that if you're looking for a "message" or some sort of commentary from the game, that's where you'll find it.
don't want to say too much but if you're curious it might be worth trying out a genocide run? i think that if you're looking for a "message" or some sort of commentary from the game, that's where you'll find it.
Durrzerker
Banned
I did both runs. I think what I'm trying to say, ultimately, is that while I applaud how much choice the game gives the player, and how much it changes things [which really is impressive, don't get me wrong] the 'constants' of the plot, the things that don't change, feel very simple. It might be necessary with so many variables, but I still wound up walking away feeling like I just witnessed a pretty shallow story.
Not arguing that, just saying I was led to believe by a LOT of people that Undertale was this year's LISA, and wound up disappointed as a result.
Rockman Wright
Banned
i don't really agree, in the various neutral ending, even if you killed some people, it doesn't always have a bad end, a little sad sure, but that's it, peace is still there in a way for the remaining peoples
also yes, the story is pretty simple, like A LOT of stories out there, but when the character and dialogues and other are well written like that, i don't really care! Nothing to do with it, but it's the same with WITCHER 3! The game is awesome, there's a lot of choice, the writting is wonderful, but in the end, the story is really simple and doesn't innovate at all
Durrzerker
Banned
Sure, but things are
never outright IMPROVED by killing, which I think is a bit disingenuous. Call me cynical but I think realistically, the 'best' ending should have involved killing Flowey, even after finding out he was Asriel.
The Bankslammer
Member
i guess what it boils down to is that i see the game less as commentary about
hell, i'm not even sure if toby intended for there to be a message at all, lol. if i had to guess at his intentions, i'd say the game's promotion of non-violence isn't so much trying to be preachy as it is a reflection of toby's non-cynical nature. but that's just how i see it!
but i mean, what you get from the game is what you get from the game, lol. not trying to convince anyone of anything, just sharing thoughts cuz i think it's interesting.
the morality of violence in games and more observation into obsessive fanbases. i think that's something the giant bomb review mentioned as well?
hell, i'm not even sure if toby intended for there to be a message at all, lol. if i had to guess at his intentions, i'd say the game's promotion of non-violence isn't so much trying to be preachy as it is a reflection of toby's non-cynical nature. but that's just how i see it!
but i mean, what you get from the game is what you get from the game, lol. not trying to convince anyone of anything, just sharing thoughts cuz i think it's interesting.
Durrzerker
Banned
Oh yeah, for sure. Like I don't mean to diss the game, I REALLY liked it. It's just I think i was given false expectations by my friends. They know I'm a massive fan of LISA so a lot of them were like "It's just like LISA, you'll love it!" and it really isn't beyond being a simple indie game that wanders into pretty dark territory at times.
Rockman Wright
Banned
welp, i need to try out LISA now (but i still need to finish persona 3 and 4, these are fucking long games)
The prevailing theme I took from Undertale was having the generosity to trust and have faith in people and stem your cynicism toward the motives of others.
You see it everywhere (neutral run spoilers at most):
You see it everywhere (neutral run spoilers at most):
1) Toriel could easily be received as sinister and overbearing and there are certainly red herrings that might lead you to justify her death (disparate sizes of kids shoes, her "testing" your independence)
2) Papyrus is an embodiment of that theme to a flawed extent
3) Multiple characters appear one-dimensional from a distance but have unexpected personalities and interests if you take the chance to get to know them
4) Dogs are a consistent motif and could be argued as the ultimate examples of trust in others
5) The list goes on
2) Papyrus is an embodiment of that theme to a flawed extent
3) Multiple characters appear one-dimensional from a distance but have unexpected personalities and interests if you take the chance to get to know them
4) Dogs are a consistent motif and could be argued as the ultimate examples of trust in others
5) The list goes on
Durrzerker
Banned
It's pretty incredible. Good trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-kT5SDifCU
But yeah. I definitely agree Undertale does a lot right, I just think that ultimately, I'll remember it more for the mechanics and humor than the plot.
Rockman Wright
Banned
i never watch trailer for these kind of games, i prefere to have the full surprise
Pretty much, its not a "Violence is bad! boo!" message, but more of a comentary on
Player-game world relations
videogames rarely go places that are not supposed to make you feel awesome and how players do all sorts of weird things for the sake of completition and to feed their curiocity.
Check out the game's OT here at gaf, it's what made me curious about LISA.
Eh, the assumption that Undertale is a study of obsessive fanbases presumes that Toby expected the game to be received like this. I can't imagine he'd conceive such an idea without that confidence. I don't really buy that as a unifying theme. I think it's definitely a theme but I'd give more weight to the idea that it's built on rewarding, testing, and subverting player investment (which is not equivalent to fanbase obsession). You make a story with the hope that people will invest; you don't create a story to play on an obsessive fanbase that does not and may not exist. At most, Undertale provides commentary on obsessive fanbases but it couldn't possibly be a thesis.
There are different levels of interpretation possible, too: ethical (is killing bad?), metatextual (a reflexive study of player investment), interpersonal (trust) etc. Boiling it down to a log line is probably doing a disservice to most art, right?
(then again, I kind of forgot about Toby's involvement in Homestuck which would probably merit a study of fanbases)
There are different levels of interpretation possible, too: ethical (is killing bad?), metatextual (a reflexive study of player investment), interpersonal (trust) etc. Boiling it down to a log line is probably doing a disservice to most art, right?
(then again, I kind of forgot about Toby's involvement in Homestuck which would probably merit a study of fanbases)
His background includes both the Earthbound and Homestuck communities, which even if the game wasn't a big hit, just these two communities alone would be enough for the game to be recieved like it was, he well knew it was gonna happen.
Saying he deliveratedly made it for it to happen tho? well that's debatable indeed, he might have, he might not, but i do believe he at least anticipated it happening.
I also agree that it is merely one of the themes, among other themes i personally felt it touched
owning to the concequences of your actions, letting go of the past, the theme of "innocence vs grimdarkness" in modern fiction,
I kind of took Undertale as an attempt to not play out the most common video game trope: Player vs. World.
The game emphasizes right from the get go that the monsters aren't, well, monsters. You can't just run around hacking away at them because they happened to bump into you.
As a player, seeing my low health and my level never increase, I instinctively felt like I was doing something wrong.
As a player, seeing my low health and my level never increase, I instinctively felt like I was doing something wrong.
The Bankslammer
Member
This is something I definitely want to follow up on when I get more time, but I don't think it's a question of either "did Toby knowingly design the game to be the kind that appeals to devoted fanbases" or "is this a game that appeals to devoted fanbases because of Toby's background as a member of a devoted fanbase". I feel pretty comfortable saying "a little of column A, a little of column B". There are so many skill-based, emotional, and technical barriers blocking off some of the information in the game, that I think that it must be by design, at least to some extent.
Toby's coming at this with a background of two extremely obsessive fanbases that he is closely involved in: Earthbound/Mother and Homestuck. He knew going in that a decent number of folks from both of those communities would follow him into this new venture, and (thanks to the Kickstarter and the reception of the demo) I think he had a reasonable idea of what could/would happen with this game's community.
Also, from that recent interview with the ExistentialGamer folks:
Toby Fox in ExistentialGamer interview said:
I'm interpreting that as him being surprised by the magnitude of the game's positive reception, but not the overall tenor of the thing. May be putting words in his mouth here, though!
It doesn't change anything, and it's definitely out of the way, but
after beating the last boss in the True Pacifist route, you can travel all the way back to the Ruins...all the way to the flower patch you first fell in. Asriel is there, and at some point, he does say "You can't solve everything by being nice. The surface world isn't always a pleasant place...there are a lot of Floweys there." Sure, it's pretty out of the way, but still.
I always thought being peaceful towards the monsters was easier because they're far more pure in heart/SOUL than any human, at least as far as we know. One of the books in the library even says it: human SOULs don't need compassion and love to exist.
I always thought being peaceful towards the monsters was easier because they're far more pure in heart/SOUL than any human, at least as far as we know. One of the books in the library even says it: human SOULs don't need compassion and love to exist.
Well, that's the Pacifist run. (Also includes Genocide spoilers)
But, yeah, this was amazing. My GOTY. I might eventually work up the nerve to play the Genocide run.
I walked back to the Ruins and Asriel told me that Chara was kind of a dickhead. I know from the Genocide run that Chara is either some demonic entity or the will of the player themselves, but it's really sad thinking all the pain Asriel and his parents went through was for someone who was only using them.
But, yeah, this was amazing. My GOTY. I might eventually work up the nerve to play the Genocide run.