Blue Ninja
Member
Having recently rewatched Season 1, nah, he's great. I also really liked Mark Addy as King Robert.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6 Offseason Thread
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Having recently rewatched Season 1, nah, he's great. I also really liked Mark Addy as King Robert.
Season 1 is still the best season overall IMO. Only thing it's really lacking in comparison with the following seasons is better production values, Davos, Tywin and more Theon.
The fact that the story was only starting meant fewer characters and plotlines to follow, which led to better pacing and more fleshed-out character development. Not to mention it was much easier to follow.
ToyMachine228
Member
Can anyone link me to this supposed Spanish leak that is being referenced?
Oldest Snake
Member
How a show on HBO could have Stephen Dillane playing one of the main characters for 4 years and fail to put him front and center as often as possible is beyond me.
Don't like Stannis in the books? Fine by me. Stephen Dillane's playing him in the show? Time to get on the motherfucking Mannis train!
Gen.Grievous
Member
Hype for the show is still increasing. Crazy how many views the trailer had in 24 hours. ratings will probably grow again. Wonder how high they will go.
You mad bro?
I know this was two pages ago, but I'm going to be a lone dissenter with WhereAreMahDragons and say that Arya has been adapted about as well as possible. During her time in Braavos, we have two examples of her abandoning training/assignment to take personal kills, once for Dareon and once for Raff, and one example of her successfully carrying out her mission with the insurance salesman. When all three of those incidents got merged into one, the theme of her opting to take revenge over duty won out, and it seems like that's probably in line with the long-term arc of her character. My only regret with Arya is that they had to trim out so much Brotherhood content in season 3, but there was probably no way around that.
Agreed that cutting Abel was a good move. Silly plot. Still, killing him early made season 3 retroactively worse, once it became clear that they had passed up on their real opportunities to use him and develop that character. He only had like three scenes in what should have been his season.
Also, Alfie Allen is the best actor on the show, bar none. I really hope the guy gets some good work once his role on the show is done. Like Charles Dance pulled off a great Tywin, but that's because he's good at playing imperious and commanding. Dillane played a great Stannis, but that's largely because he seems to actually be a grumpy Stannis-type man himself. Theon is a crazy hard role that I don't think anything could have prepared him for, but Allen has nailed it.
And Dinklage peaked with season 1. I don't think he's ever been able to grapple with depressed and angry Tyrion quite as well as he was able to handle snarky, privileged Tyrion.
I hate how people's criticism of D&D always goes to them being "lazy" or them "hating" a certain character. Maybe they just thought the plot or character direction they took was an interesting one? Or they thought it was a good way to adapt a more complex storyline into something more manageable for a TV show?
No, it's always because they are lazy or hacks or just hate a certain character and are shitting on them for some reason. It's fucking stupid.
No, it's always because they are lazy or hacks or just hate a certain character and are shitting on them for some reason. It's fucking stupid.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Yeah, this killed me. From there her material has had ups and downs. Also the scene with her killing the stable boy in season 1 was terrible.
Also agree with this. Hopefully Allen gets more recognition going forward.
Word. Some of the most entertaining/tense scenes in the entire show. G.R.R.M. should retroactively write them into ACOK.
Stannis, Jaime post S3, Dany S2, Robb's shady wife and love affair, Dorne... either they are bad or they hate the characters, there is no other explanation.
Like the Harry Potter movies, there are incredible actors in Game of Thrones. Imagine Cersie's storyline with a lesser actress. Or Davos. The show would crumble under the weight of its incompetence.
I think the best actor is Ciarán Hinds, though. Every second with Mance on screen is perfect and he carries every scene. I'm shocked that they killed him when he's still alive in the books. And I'm shocked that they didn't even use him when he was still alive. Just a total waste.
Moff
Member
well to be fair, if mance was still alive he would no longer be played by hinds
In terms of raw acting, I think Liam Cunningham has been the best, Rory McCann a close second.
As for who was more evocative of their literary counterparts, Carice Van Houten as Melisandre and Conleth Hill as Varys would be my picks, with Dance as a close runner up for Tywin, and Bean as Eddard a bit behind him.
Most of the cast just put in serviceable performances but nothing special. The only actors who stand out to me as having acted poorly in numerous scenes would be Clarke as Daenerys, Rosabell Sellers as Tyene, and the actress who portrayed Shae. I guess I'll add Jason Momoa in there as Khal Drogo - though his work was more uneven than just plain bad.
As for who was more evocative of their literary counterparts, Carice Van Houten as Melisandre and Conleth Hill as Varys would be my picks, with Dance as a close runner up for Tywin, and Bean as Eddard a bit behind him.
Most of the cast just put in serviceable performances but nothing special. The only actors who stand out to me as having acted poorly in numerous scenes would be Clarke as Daenerys, Rosabell Sellers as Tyene, and the actress who portrayed Shae. I guess I'll add Jason Momoa in there as Khal Drogo - though his work was more uneven than just plain bad.
You can be a good writer and still make mistakes. That does happen, y'know (see: AFFC, ADWD).
You also have to take into account production limitations. A lot of things may work great on paper but then don't translate on screen quite as well as hoped. And given the huge crunch the show is already under just to get everything filmed and through post-production each year, there is no time for rewrites and reshoots.
It's just not as black and white as everyone likes to make it out to be.
Steelyuhas
Member
John Dunbar
correct about everything
stannis will sit the iron throne and d&d are filthy hater hacks.
I get some of the anger, because there are definitely times where they've changed characters on a thematic level, and I get how that can be upsetting to someone who has invested themselves in a book character, more so than just abridging and condensing plot points is. But ultimately I agree, I think it's silly to presume some sort of malice or gross incompetence. There have just been times when they've opted for other priorities, where they've decided that thematic elements had to be sacrificed for story density or brevity. I don't think they've executed on all those changes well, but I don't think they ever sit down and say "ok how can we get Sansa raped and piss off the Stannis fans this season?"
There's no way I would say David Benioff is a hack. He did write City of Thieves, which is an excellent novel.
My problem with the show is that it prioritizes twists above everything else. Even breasts. Because of that, scenes are constructed to lull you into peace before the rub is pulled out from under you. It's incredible that the books have exponentially more characters, but more named characters have died in the show. Ironically, the show's reliance and death and twists creates a predictable rhythm where we're trained to expect chaos, which often makes individual scenes rather boring.
The book, of course, does have shocking moments, but they're presented very differently. Instead of trying to spring major changes on readers, Martin instead laces hints and foreshadowing beforehand. This makes it so that every chapter (yes, even in Feast and Dance) are necessary. And, upon re-reads, you can see the groundwork that had been laid out.
I understand part of that is just adapting for the medium. But I feel that it's a lesser story because of that. For instance, killing Joffery hurt the show's narrative because there was no longer a traditional antagonist (other than the purely evil Ramsey). In the books, the lack of a villain isn't a problem. It's a story about morally gray people trying to do what they feel is right for either themselves, the realm, or a combination thereof. Even someone like Euron isn't presented as a villain.
Game of Thrones works for television because it is filled with sex, blood, and twists and eschews the complicated motivations and backstories that fill the books. Although it's a good show, I do find it insulting to its audience. It is possible to have a complicated, nuanced story that takes place in a fantasy universe; HBO just didn't have faith that people would be vigilant enough to watch it.
My problem with the show is that it prioritizes twists above everything else. Even breasts. Because of that, scenes are constructed to lull you into peace before the rub is pulled out from under you. It's incredible that the books have exponentially more characters, but more named characters have died in the show. Ironically, the show's reliance and death and twists creates a predictable rhythm where we're trained to expect chaos, which often makes individual scenes rather boring.
The book, of course, does have shocking moments, but they're presented very differently. Instead of trying to spring major changes on readers, Martin instead laces hints and foreshadowing beforehand. This makes it so that every chapter (yes, even in Feast and Dance) are necessary. And, upon re-reads, you can see the groundwork that had been laid out.
I understand part of that is just adapting for the medium. But I feel that it's a lesser story because of that. For instance, killing Joffery hurt the show's narrative because there was no longer a traditional antagonist (other than the purely evil Ramsey). In the books, the lack of a villain isn't a problem. It's a story about morally gray people trying to do what they feel is right for either themselves, the realm, or a combination thereof. Even someone like Euron isn't presented as a villain.
Game of Thrones works for television because it is filled with sex, blood, and twists and eschews the complicated motivations and backstories that fill the books. Although it's a good show, I do find it insulting to its audience. It is possible to have a complicated, nuanced story that takes place in a fantasy universe; HBO just didn't have faith that people would be vigilant enough to watch it.
Basileus777
Member
Of course he is. He's a pure villain just like the Boltons and the Mountain. Not everyone in ASOIAF is a grey character.
I think a lot of your arguments apply better to the first three books than the last two, which really does embrace the "fuck it, here's some twists" factor, though shocks, twists, and cliffhangers have always been a large part of these books. The show is paced differently and often doesn't pull them off as well as the source material, but I don't think it's really that different in spirit.
The Mountain is a terrible person but we're at least given a little to sympathize with in the books. He's in constant pain and lashes out in anger. Deplorable? Yes, but he's not a monster. Even Ramsey is viewed very differently in the books. Everyone other than Theon laughs at him. He wants to be a villain, but no one takes him seriously.
The point is, the books don't need villains. There's plenty of conflict without them. The show, however, needed that typical antagonist to drive the plot.
Do they? I guess I don't remember anything that was really shocking, especially on re-reads.
OK, I disagree here, The Mountain is a monster, and a pretty disgusting guy too.
There are full on villains in the books: LF, Euron, Walder Frey... there is nothing morally grey with what those people are doing, they are bad and they would kill thier mothers for their objectives, which are in turn nefarious. Probably. Maybe Euron wants peace in the world, who knows?
Basileus777
Member
Ramsey is about as much of a grey character as Jigsaw (actually probably less). The Boltons are villainous to a comical degree, I don't know how anyone could read all those chapters of torture porn and rape and think they are anything other than utterly villainous. The same with Gregor Clegane. And the books are full of lesser one-note villains as well, just look at Essos.
And I don't recall many people laughing at Ramsey, if he's not taken seriously it's because of how blatantly grotesque he is.
And I don't recall many people laughing at Ramsey, if he's not taken seriously it's because of how blatantly grotesque he is.
Dash_Riprock
Member
I find it hilarious how GRRM criticized LotR and Fantasy novels like it for having characters that were so obviously good and evil (with the evil ones being ugly to boot) and then goes on and introduces one-dimensionaly evil ugly characters in his own novels.
Oldest Snake
Member
I don't think it's accurate to say Ramsay or Gregor aren't evil individuals, however the way GRRM writes them- namely Ramsay, plays a big role in how they appear to readers.
Ramsay is a secondary character in Theon's story. He's violent and cruel, but those attributes hold him back as well as define him.
What rubs me the wrong way about show-Ramsay is that in season 5 he was given precedence over 2 named POV characters from the books, with the writers going on record to describe the Winterfell arc as "this story with Ramsay". They started from a position of Ramsay & his story being the most important element and worked back from there to make it happen. Part of this comes with the territory of visual media, of course, but there's no denying that show Ramsay is specifically written to be the baddy that fills the vacuum left by Joffrey & Tywin.
Ramsay is a secondary character in Theon's story. He's violent and cruel, but those attributes hold him back as well as define him.
What rubs me the wrong way about show-Ramsay is that in season 5 he was given precedence over 2 named POV characters from the books, with the writers going on record to describe the Winterfell arc as "this story with Ramsay". They started from a position of Ramsay & his story being the most important element and worked back from there to make it happen. Part of this comes with the territory of visual media, of course, but there's no denying that show Ramsay is specifically written to be the baddy that fills the vacuum left by Joffrey & Tywin.
Yeah! How could I fail to mention Mark Addy. Sean Bean and Mark Addy really were the characters for me. Fit perfectly.
Steelyuhas
Member
I think the books and the show struggled with the vacuum of Tywin and Joffrey, even if some of the characters are presented a bit differently in the show (namely Ramsay).
They've made some attempts at remedying by having Roose be a bit of a "Twyin-lite", but it's not nearly as affective as Tywin interacting with characters we've been invested in since the beginning (mostly his three children).
They've made some attempts at remedying by having Roose be a bit of a "Twyin-lite", but it's not nearly as affective as Tywin interacting with characters we've been invested in since the beginning (mostly his three children).
What baffle me is how they did not think about recasting arya stark after season 2. She was perfect in season 1 as a cute rebel little girl, ok in season 2, but damn is she aweful after. She just seem'like the kind of teenager you want to slap hard. It's not that hard to figure she's going to transform into bad ass stark assassin, and i don't see how williams could pull this off even in her dreams.
The character has grown, she's the most easy to recast. Plus seriousely Arya is meant to be a tomboy but she's also supposed to look like her taunt lyanna who was thought as being beyond beatiful. Maisie Williams looks like the hunchback of notre dame now.
The character has grown, she's the most easy to recast. Plus seriousely Arya is meant to be a tomboy but she's also supposed to look like her taunt lyanna who was thought as being beyond beatiful. Maisie Williams looks like the hunchback of notre dame now.
Dash_Riprock
Member
WTF is this shit?
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
The hell? Williams is one of the best actors in the series overall. Just limiting it to the female roles I would say the only actress better than her was Diana Rigg. They could not have gotten more lucky casting such a young actress to handle such a role.
Yeah i know a bunch of people like her, isn't my case at all. Her story is good, her character is intersting but that don't make her a great actress not even a correct one.
It always felt to me like Show Littlefinger is the end boss - well, other than the Night King.
A bunch of people like her? She's pretty much universally considered to be one of the best actors/actresses on the show. Pretty sure your's is the random, contrarian opinion here.
Uh huh.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
I stopped listening to a couple podcasts due to people complaining about D&D ruining characters "because they hate the character." It's a juvenile criticism.
My general view is that they're not good writers or plotters, and multiple characters suffer from their issues with character development (Stannis for instance). But the biggest problem, which is not D&D's fault, is the time limit. They simply don't have time to develop characters like a 900 page book does.
Basileus777
Member
The biggest problem is that D&D didn't cut enough out of the books to properly develop what they need to.
But then they add plot lines (Robb's romance) or undermine character development (Sansa, Jamie). There's no easy answer why the show suffers. It's a combination of huge source material, limited budget, strict filming timeframe, and, honestly, bad writing choices.
Plus they're adapting something that isn't done and think twists and deaths are the core appeal.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
D&D aren't good writers but I agree. They should never have tried to adapt so much of the book material. Such an adaptation would have been difficult for anyone.
But this is true as well.
Lyanna barely exists in the show and they definitely don't bring up her looks over and over like in the books. Because Maisie is fantastic and has killed every in almost every scene and she plays one of the more difficult characters. From the comedic to the dark and sad she has been on point.
Basileus777
Member
Yeah, I was over-simplifying it and they've certainly made their share of mistakes, but to nail everything they've tried to cram into this show isn't something I'd expect any TV writer to accomplish. A narrower and better paced vision of the show would have certainly helped alleviate a lot of the problems.
^It would've helped if GRRM actually finished the books so the writers would be able to know what to cut or keep from the beginning.
I'll admit a lot of the issues these last couple of seasons have been trying to get things to stick as they've had to loosen their adaptation, combined with the reality of huge budgets, massive casts, and less than a year to get it all done. Still, can't excuse the poor characterization and decision making however.
I'll admit a lot of the issues these last couple of seasons have been trying to get things to stick as they've had to loosen their adaptation, combined with the reality of huge budgets, massive casts, and less than a year to get it all done. Still, can't excuse the poor characterization and decision making however.
But they knew from the beginning that the story wasn't finished yet. If they cared about doing a worthy adaptation, they would have waited until Martin was done. There are plenty of other books to adapt or -- gasp! -- they could have written an original story.
Basileus777
Member
Well not if they wanted to run a HBO series.
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