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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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B

Beer Monkey

Member
Anybody remember the sets that would upscale SD to 960i?

I had for many years but never plugged a 240p console into it. I used my CRT for the old school stuff.

Still curious how it looks.
 
K

Khaz

Member
socksfelloff said:
HDCRT tvs do support 480p over component but they upscale everything to 720p/1080i. They even upscale 240p which loses the scanlines we all get boners for. Some claim they also add input lag.
Click to expand...

It seems that consumer CRTs either do fixed 15kHz or variable 31-41kHz. VGA displays don't go below 640x480 (and I assume line-double DOS stuff), my own consumer HD CRT has zero-lag 480p/720p/1080i but has 1frame-lag with 240p/480i, meaning it's upscaled. I saw in some service manuals that some HD professional monitors could do full variable 15-41kHz, but I wouldn't assume that all do.
 
R

Rich!

Member
Just bought an official Wii RGB SCART cable as I lost my other one. My local charity shop has a basket of crap assorted cables for 50p each and I found one in there!

I'll probably set it to autoboot into retroarch and lock the configuration at 240p.

Quick question, is reducing phosphor glow something that's possible on a PVM/BVM?
 
M

Mega

Banned
Turn down the RGB levels in the service menu, plus dial down the brightness and contrast.

I had my own run in with 480p wishful thinking in 09-10. I took the Sony(?) CRT with Component inputs that my sister left behind, got a Wii Component cable from Monoprice and was ready for Mario Galaxy in progressive mode and... nothing. I was so disappointed. It did push me into getting my first HDTV, a Sony 32" 720p TV. Great for early Netflix and whatnot but must've had a terrible upscaler because Wii games didn't look so good on it.
 
L

Later Alligator

Member
Toronto GAF

I have a Sony BVM-1911 that I need to get rid of. The wife and I are having our first kid, and so I need to get rid of some stuff from my man cave and move my office down there to free up a bed room. Theres also a TV stand I have for it which I will toss in for free.

Asking $100. Thing is in great shape. Can deliver for a fee, or come get it in Whitby (30 mins east of TO)
 
socksfelloff

socksfelloff

Member
Hinzel said:
Toronto GAF

I have a Sony BVM-1911 that I need to get rid of. The wife and I are having our first kid, and so I need to get rid of some stuff from my man cave and move my office down there to free up a bed room. Theres also a TV stand I have for it which I will toss in for free.

Asking $100. Thing is in great shape. Can deliver for a fee, or come get it in Whitby (30 mins east of TO)
Click to expand...

I'll pm you. I also live in Whitby!
 
D

dubc35

Member
socksfelloff said:
False assumption. Most consumer grade CRT's do not support 480p even if they have component inputs.

HDCRT tvs do support 480p over component but they upscale everything to 720p/1080i. They even upscale 240p which loses the scanlines we all get boners for. Some claim they also add input lag.

Several models of sony PVM/BVMs support 480p over component. The NEC XM29 supports it as well.

What consoles are you looking to play on a crt?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply! I would be playing NES, SNES, Genesis, ps1/2 and possibly OG xbox. PS2 would probably be the only major one and I don't think it has many 480p titles. OG xbox in 480p on my HDTV looks pretty good and I haven't noticed any issues (I'm sure there is lag but I'm ok with it, RalliSport Challenge 2 plays fine for me).

I was thinking if I was to buy one, why not try for a 480p one since I don't really want to pay PVM/BVM prices. Although I'm still just kicking the tires and looking around. No plans right now.
 
B

Barrel Cannon

Member
Hinzel said:
Toronto GAF

I have a Sony BVM-1911 that I need to get rid of. The wife and I are having our first kid, and so I need to get rid of some stuff from my man cave and move my office down there to free up a bed room. Theres also a TV stand I have for it which I will toss in for free.

Asking $100. Thing is in great shape. Can deliver for a fee, or come get it in Whitby (30 mins east of TO)
Click to expand...

socksfelloff said:
I'll pm you. I also live in Whitby!
Click to expand...

Damn didn't reply in time lol. If whatever reason socksfelloff decides to cancel I'm down to purchase it.


Random PVM question, does anyone watch Movies/Television ever on their PVM CRTs? I was thinking of modding one of my other xboxs and turning it into a jukebox to play music videos.

dubc35 said:
Thanks for the reply! I would be playing NES, SNES, Genesis, ps1/2 and possibly OG xbox. PS2 would probably be the only major one and I don't think it has many 480p titles. OG xbox in 480p on my HDTV looks pretty good and I haven't noticed any issues (I'm sure there is lag but I'm ok with it, RalliSport Challenge 2 plays fine for me).

I was thinking if I was to buy one, why not try for a 480p one since I don't really want to pay PVM/BVM prices. Although I'm still just kicking the tires and looking around. No plans right now.
Click to expand...

I used to love RC1 and hated Rallisport Challenge 2. Later realized it was because I had switched to a laggy tv since moving between games. Upon revisiting it a few years back on one of my other TVs I realized my mistake and loved it.
 
socksfelloff

socksfelloff

Member
dubc35 said:
Thanks for the reply! I would be playing NES, SNES, Genesis, ps1/2 and possibly OG xbox. PS2 would probably be the only major one and I don't think it has many 480p titles. OG xbox in 480p on my HDTV looks pretty good and I haven't noticed any issues (I'm sure there is lag but I'm ok with it, RalliSport Challenge 2 plays fine for me).

I was thinking if I was to buy one, why not try for a 480p one since I don't really want to pay PVM/BVM prices. Although I'm still just kicking the tires and looking around. No plans right now.
Click to expand...

Og xbox holds its own on a flat screen and ps2 games look far better on a CRT @480i then a flatscreen @ 480p.

For 240p/480i content a standard Sony Trinitron will look great. I have a 20fs100 and a 27fs120(20" and 27") and they both look fantastic for 240/480i. They have component inputs so you can use a scart > component adapter for the best image quality. They can both also be found for free or close to it.


Barrel Cannon said:
Damn didn't reply in time lol. If whatever reason socksfelloff decides to cancel I'm down to purchase it.


Random PVM question, does anyone watch Movies/Television ever on their PVM CRTs? I was thinking of modding one of my other xboxs and turning it into a jukebox to play music videos.
Click to expand...

Sorry man! I'll let you know what happens. I've been on the search for a BVM for... Years now.

I watch dvds on my ps2 all the time on my pvm. I'm a big fan of 80s/90s cartoons and They look far better on a CRT then upscaled on a flat screen.
 
K

Khaz

Member
dubc35 said:
Thanks for the reply! I would be playing NES, SNES, Genesis, ps1/2 and possibly OG xbox. PS2 would probably be the only major one and I don't think it has many 480p titles. OG xbox in 480p on my HDTV looks pretty good and I haven't noticed any issues (I'm sure there is lag but I'm ok with it, RalliSport Challenge 2 plays fine for me).

I was thinking if I was to buy one, why not try for a 480p one since I don't really want to pay PVM/BVM prices. Although I'm still just kicking the tires and looking around. No plans right now.
Click to expand...

Then give 240p Component a chance. With a small Scart to component encoder, it will bring you RGB quality without having to look for a professional monitor.
 
D

dubc35

Member
socksfelloff said:
Og xbox holds its own on a flat screen and ps2 games look far better on a CRT @480i then a flatscreen @ 480p.

For 240p/480i content a standard Sony Trinitron will look great. I have a 20fs100 and a 27fs120(20" and 27") and they both look fantastic for 240/480i. They have component inputs so you can use a scart > component adapter for the best image quality. They can both also be found for free or close to it.
Click to expand...
Yep, price is a big reason I have been looking at the consumer grade CRT. Good point on the SCART to component!
Khaz said:
Then give 240p Component a chance. With a small Scart to component encoder, it will bring you RGB quality without having to look for a professional monitor.
Click to expand...
Also thanks for the heads up on scart-component! I was thinking I would probably still use S-Video for SNES and mod my Genesis but scart-component would be much better! I'm interested to see how the HD Retrovision component cables turn out for SNES and Genesis as well.
 
socksfelloff

socksfelloff

Member
dubc35 said:
Yep, price is a big reason I have been looking at the consumer grade CRT. Good point on the SCART to component!

Also thanks for the heads up on scart-component! I was thinking I would probably still use S-Video for SNES and mod my Genesis but scart-component would be much better! I'm interested to see how the HD Retrovision component cables turn out for SNES and Genesis as well.
Click to expand...

The component cables will just have the converter baked into them. It's actually a fairly simple circuit to do it.

It really varys per system. Some systems, svideo - rgb is hardly noticeable. The genesis looks incredible in RGB though.

Grab your cables from retro_console_accesories on eBay.

I ended up going rgb for everything with a nice switcher for ease. Having everything hooked into 1 input is too convenient to pass up expecially when you're passing through for capture.
 
R

Rich!

Member
right, i've got my jvc exactly as I want it. I've got the geometry as good as it's gonna get, got the colours and sharpness to my liking, fixed the white balance and even perfected the focus and aperture using the hidden pots on the back and a screwdriver.

dsc_03301vobq0.jpg
Click to expand...

not the best image as the exposure was a bit off, but I'm happy with the set as it is now.

The only issue I have now is an odd one...the screen flashes like mad as if the refresh rate is fucked if I load up the Action Replay Gamecube Menu....and only the Action Replay Gamecube Menu. I have absolutely no issues on any other 240p, 480i, 576i content or any other gamecube titles. Or even the Action Replay boot screen.

it's bizarre.
 
M

Mega

Banned
Barrel Cannon said:
Random PVM question, does anyone watch Movies/Television ever on their PVM CRTs? I was thinking of modding one of my other xboxs and turning it into a jukebox to play music videos.
Click to expand...

I watched some of Star Wars on DVD over 480p and it looked nice... but I don't really use my monitors for that. I'd rather preserve the tubes for retro gaming. If I get a hold of old media like WB cartoons like someone mentioned and 80s-90s TV shows that were originally SD resolution, then maybe I'd watch them on the CRT. A lot of these old shows airing on cable and local channels look absolutely terrible upscaled(?) to HD resolutions. Total eyesore unlike what I remember watching them on CRT televisions.
 
K

Khaz

Member
Barrel Cannon said:
Random PVM question, does anyone watch Movies/Television ever on their PVM CRTs? I was thinking of modding one of my other xboxs and turning it into a jukebox to play music videos.
Click to expand...

Not PVM, but I'm using a widescreen HD CRT (29 inches) to watch DVDs. It displays them at 576p but I never noticed any artefacts. I like it better than the blurry mess it makes when upscaled to 1080p on an LCD. Maybe that has improved with newest generation blu-ray players? But I wasn't impressed by what I saw back then.
 
C

Conezays

Member
Hey folks, I've been using a Toshiba CRT for most of my retro gaming but recently have found a Sony Trinitron PVM 1354Q locally. I have a SCART cable for my Saturn (currently unused), as well as S-video and component cables for myriad of my systems. Just wanting to know what I need to purchase in order to use BNC cables for my Saturn. I imagine I have to buy a Scart/component box converter again? (Last time I got one, it didn't work. Sigh). Thanks for any help; much appreciated!
 
V

Voliko

Member
Barrel Cannon said:
Random PVM question, does anyone watch Movies/Television ever on their PVM CRTs? I was thinking of modding one of my other xboxs and turning it into a jukebox to play music videos.
Click to expand...

I watch a lot of 80s/90s anime on mine. It's comfy, would recommend. They don't look that bad on my HD set with the Framemeister but nothing beats the real deal I say.
 
B

Barrel Cannon

Member
socksfelloff said:
Sorry man! I'll let you know what happens. I've been on the search for a BVM for... Years now.

I watch dvds on my ps2 all the time on my pvm. I'm a big fan of 80s/90s cartoons and They look far better on a CRT then upscaled on a flat screen.
Click to expand...
Yea no worries. My search has only been going a few months and I'm in no hurry.

Also cool to see that you and a bunch of other users use it for watching TV/Movies. I think I'll find another PVM(probably non-Sony this time) and use that for my music video dream in my basement while my current one will be used for TV+Gaming. I don't think I watch enough TV to kill the life on it enough.
 
R

Rich!

Member
damn I wish I had a bvm (as opposed to a pvm)

but hey, those things are nigh on impossible to find here in the UK...the only one I've seen of a decent spec/condition is £500 on ebay (20" sony)!!
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
I prefer the PVM, myself. Your BVM seems a tad undersaturated but maybe that's the picture? Minus the slight lack of color I like the BVM more.
 
M

Mega

Banned
If I needed scanlines with my 64 games, the PVM would definitely be my go-to monitor.

Re the saturation: It's the way N64 comes through on the BVM.. dim, blurry and washed out. Other 240p stuff looks sharp, bright and saturated.

c2UqGyF.jpg
ouy0xcy.jpg


MyKUPGK.jpg
0gUAOcC.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Kawika

Kawika

Member
So Gaf, whats the consensus on the best way to play the Wii.

I have component cables, a wii2hdmi and a wii u. The Wii looks pretty amazing on my 14" PVM but its a little too small to sit as far back as I have to to get the Wii bar to notice what I am doing. Soooo

I have a XRGB but I have yet to find any setting that makes it look deccent on a HDTV.
I have tried various resolutions 480i and 480p via the Vanilla wii and 720 and 1080p using the Wii U and I just can't decide which looks best.

Wii U is probably the most convenient but I am still trying to get it too look a bit better. Can you force Wii to output in 240p mode like you can with the Gamecube?
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Kawika said:
So Gaf, whats the consensus on the best way to play the Wii.

I have component cables, a wii2hdmi and a wii u. The Wii looks pretty amazing on my 14" PVM but its a little too small to sit as far back as I have to to get the Wii bar to notice what I am doing. Soooo

I have a XRGB but I have yet to find any setting that makes it look deccent on a HDTV.
I have tried various resolutions 480i and 480p via the Vanilla wii and 720 and 1080p using the Wii U and I just can't decide which looks best.

Wii U is probably the most convenient but I am still trying to get it too look a bit better. Can you force Wii to output in 240p mode like you can with the Gamecube?
Click to expand...
I personally think the RGB SCART 480i-to-XRGB Mini screencaps look best, but I've only used component 480p with my console. The Mini handles it pretty well, but wii games ain't pretty.
 
Kawika

Kawika

Member
NormalFish said:
I personally think the RGB SCART 480i-to-XRGB Mini screencaps look best, but I've only used component 480p with my console. The Mini handles it pretty well, but wii games ain't pretty.
Click to expand...
I should have specified. I'm in North America. So NTSC is my only option.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
so, CRT life is going well! been mostly trying out lightgun stuff so far, but i gotta get on some lammy and other titles that i'll dig more without the latency. colors aren't quite where i want em just yet, was playing Sonic Jam on saturn and had a bitch of a time with greens in particular...SCART & YUV converter seemed plugged in just fine, hopefully it's not an issue with tthe tubes
 
R

Rich!

Member
Kawika said:
I should have specified. I'm in North America. So NTSC is my only option.
Click to expand...

actually no, it's not

you can use rgb scart out on a usa wii. just gotta change your firmware region to EU using anyregionchanger. The RGB functionality is baked into the firmware, not hardware
 
T

televator

Member
Kawika said:
I should have specified. I'm in North America. So NTSC is my only option.
Click to expand...

I don't wanna sound like a big meanie, but with all do respect to my peers here, I would advise you to disregard the advice about using RGB SCART. Both GameCube and Wii are hard limimited to the YUY2 color format. There's absolutely nothing to gain from using RGB SCART on the Wii. You are just fine using a component cable with the Wii, and even better off since you get 480p that way.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
televator said:
I don't wanna sound like a big meanie, but with all do respect to my peers here, I would advise you to disregard the advice about using RGB SCART. Both GameCube and Wii are hard limimited to the YUY2 color format. There's absolutely nothing to gain from using RGB SCART on the Wii. You are just fine using a component cable with the Wii, and even better off since you get 480p that way.
Click to expand...

Can you explain the differences phonedork found in his recent video?
https://youtu.be/3yeKMo6mcAo?t=11m50s
 
M

Mega

Banned
Monitors have different calibration settings for RGB and Component. A bunch of his tests are RGB >>> Component without compensating for these user adjusted settings.
 
T

televator

Member
NormalFish said:
Can you explain the differences phonedork found in his recent video?
https://youtu.be/3yeKMo6mcAo?t=11m50s
Click to expand...

Placebo. I've already addressed that video in the past and how it appears as though he simply hasn't calibrated gamma between the 2 inputs. Calibrated component video has exactly the same luminance information as RGB.

RGB does not "look more vibrant" than component. There is only better color resolution at a bi-pixel level.
 
M

Mega

Banned
It pops up in this thread once in a while, with new CRT owners trying to figure out why their display's RGB looks worse than Component or vice versa. Assuming nothing is busted with the RGB and Component signals coming from the console, you can calibrate the display to make them look identical. I imagine that was the case with professionals doing video editing with calibration tools.
 
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