You mean the issue with negative chroma values? Yeah that sounds pretty bad.
There's also a method which can cause strange edge artifacts like "gaps" and create more aliasing. I'm pretty convinced that this is what is apparent in PS2.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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You mean the issue with negative chroma values? Yeah that sounds pretty bad.
There's also a method which can cause strange edge artifacts like "gaps" and create more aliasing. I'm pretty convinced that this is what is apparent in PS2.
No. With RGB values outside [0,1] upon re-transform filtered YCbCr samples.
Some issues are:
- hard-clipping to [0,1] will will produce distorted colors
- gamma corrected RGB worsens the issue (coupling luma and chroma)
Part of the edge artifacts are due to this issue.
Sounds like some comb artifacts.
Here's a couple quick pictures of the PVM (PVM1354Q) I picked up on Friday. Currently just using S-video on my Saturn but have BNC connectors and adapters for component cables for other systems en route. It's hard to tell how good it looks via the pictures, but even in S-video I think it looks fantastic.
Here's a couple quick pictures of the PVM (PVM1354Q) I picked up on Friday. Currently just using S-video on my Saturn but have BNC connectors and adapters for component cables for other systems en route. It's hard to tell how good it looks via the pictures, but even in S-video I think it looks fantastic.
Saturn has impeccable image quality for any connection... even composite.
Enjoy!
Right, what I mean is that negative values of colors are sometimes calculated. Like a red that goes bellow 0 (e.g. A red with a value of -3). Of course a display cannot recreate such a thing and you get a very darkish red where the original image was intended to be black.
theSlacker
Member
Good luck!
cyborgnumberblue
Member
whoops!
sixteen-bit
Member
don't forget about the 240p thread
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=921436
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=921436
sir_kevith
Member
I had a Sega Genny RGB cable that used composite video for sync and had such bad jailbars. I couldn't figure out why people thought Genesis RGB looked so much better than SNES.
Finally got around to rigging it up with a CSYNC cable and I can't even see the jailbars anymore! Such an improvement.
Finally got around to rigging it up with a CSYNC cable and I can't even see the jailbars anymore! Such an improvement.
Some pro-tools may have such an option esp. when color accuracy is needed.
Hardware usually clips hard using a transistor. Soft-clipping is expensive.
Wrote it for my TV sim and also use it to soft-clip an HDR buffer into [0,1].... Or is this proprietary missle code?
Wow, Csync makes that much of a difference?
Yep this is definitely the best CRT I have ever owned
So happy with it. And no burn in! Or any loss of focus on the corners! But then again, it's near brand new. It's had less playtime than the amount I've played Dark Souls 1-3!
Anyhow, the last issue to sort is the cable. My current SNES/GameCube cable is a cheap £3 one I got on eBay. It's cheap, and it shows. There's some ghosting (not the CRT as component is fine) and horribly loud buzzing on my speakers from unshielded wires.
I did order a new one from retrogaming cables UK, fully shielded. I had two options, c-sync or luma. I know csync does not work with my PVM, so I ordered sync on luma. That should work, right?
So happy with it. And no burn in! Or any loss of focus on the corners! But then again, it's near brand new. It's had less playtime than the amount I've played Dark Souls 1-3!
Anyhow, the last issue to sort is the cable. My current SNES/GameCube cable is a cheap £3 one I got on eBay. It's cheap, and it shows. There's some ghosting (not the CRT as component is fine) and horribly loud buzzing on my speakers from unshielded wires.
I did order a new one from retrogaming cables UK, fully shielded. I had two options, c-sync or luma. I know csync does not work with my PVM, so I ordered sync on luma. That should work, right?
Very interesting... Though I guess if it's expensive, it would not be practical to to employ in something like the OSSC. Maybe the Framemeister could?
Scanline goodness.Yep this is definitely the best CRT I have ever owned
So happy with it. And no burn in! Or any loss of focus on the corners! But then again, it's near brand new. It's had less playtime than the amount I've played Dark Souls 1-3!
Anyhow, the last issue to sort is the cable. My current SNES/GameCube cable is a cheap £3 one I got on eBay. It's cheap, and it shows. There's some ghosting (not the CRT as component is fine) and horribly loud buzzing on my speakers from unshielded wires.
I did order a new one from retrogaming cables UK, fully shielded. I had two options, c-sync or luma. I know csync does not work with my PVM, so I ordered sync on luma. That should work, right?
Been thinkering a bit with the Framemeister and my PS2, and while the result is definitely better than just hooking my PS2 up to the tv, its still not great imo. Been googling alot, trying out the recommended profiles from FBX and Implant Gamers and so on, without much luck. But maybe i am expecting too much improvement for the PS2s interlaced picture?
Also, i have been hooking up my ps3, wii u, 360 through the framemeister since it can just have them pass through. However, for some reason, it doesnt accept my chromecast. Is this a known issue?
Also, i have been hooking up my ps3, wii u, 360 through the framemeister since it can just have them pass through. However, for some reason, it doesnt accept my chromecast. Is this a known issue?
NormalFish
Banned
What is it that you don't like? 480i/480p games really don't scale well. They're going to look blurry pretty much no matter what, barring emulation. Even on a 480i/p display they tend to look soft and aliased.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
Ps2 with fbx PS2BL profile looks the best. Some games even look really really good. Ps2 was never a great IQ console anyway.
This, it's a shame about PS2. Amazing library, but man between interlacing and limited 480p support, it's one of my least fav consoles to record games from.
NormalFish
Banned
Yeah, the PS2 is honestly terrible, even compared to other 480i/p consoles.
Still my favourite box ever, but god it's suffering trying to get good IQ. OSSC with RGsB will hopefully help a bit.
Still my favourite box ever, but god it's suffering trying to get good IQ. OSSC with RGsB will hopefully help a bit.
NormalFish
Banned
FBX has like 20 profiles for the PS2 now. if none of those do what you want you're probably not going to be a big fan of anything outside of emulation.
NormalFish
Banned
I am kind of surprised some people prefer their TV's scaler for the PS2, though. Mini's deinterlacing is pretty much the dream for PS2, in my mind. Still anxious to see the PS2's capabilities with the OSSC, though, like I've said.
Depends on the TV. Odds are a Kuro, Panasonic, or some Samsungs have very good deinterlacing.
From the handful of games I tested the BC PS3 does good deinterlacing. At least on par with the FM.
NormalFish
Banned
I dunno, I'm yet to experience a deinterlacer that functions as well as the framemeister with comparable lag. To be fair, though, it's not like I have a million TVs to test with.
Beer Monkey
Member
Plasmas do indeed lag more than the FM and because they do things like temporal dithering to create more colors, that wasn't really something they could ever address fully.
Even if you feed a plasma panel native resolution you are going to get 2-3 frames of lag and that's the best case scenario. So even with a FM feeding it, you STILL get that lag plus another frame or so from the FM.
My Kuro handles 480i and 480p splendidly, but I won't play classics on it due to the unavoidable lag.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
"Movie" or "Natural" mode + video scaling isn't good enough for 480i for you? I was pretty OK with how things looked on my recent Minna Daisuki Katarmari play through... the deinterlacing was spot on an everything looked nice.
NormalFish
Banned
Forgot to mention: of FBX's profiles, I actually like the sharp settings quite a bit. I used blur for a long time, and it really helps portraits and UI (2D) elements, but i don't like losing detail, especially since I mostly play platformers and action games
PS2 480p is bad, even on a CRT? Soft like the Wii or worse? I've had the Toro collecting dust for a few months and finally connected it to my Dreamcast. Soul Reaver at 480p looked very nice.
I like the guy but I'm hardly his biggest fan! I actually find it a little irritating that he and a few others have focused solely on the high end Sony pro monitors (and the XM29) as the "best" for retro gaming and nothing else. I wanna see coverage of other monitors but none of them are doing it.
@Mega, your mancrush, Phonedork, is on the MLiG livestream right now geeking out about RGB with the regulars.
The livestreams are archived as well.
I like the guy but I'm hardly his biggest fan! I actually find it a little irritating that he and a few others have focused solely on the high end Sony pro monitors (and the XM29) as the "best" for retro gaming and nothing else. I wanna see coverage of other monitors but none of them are doing it.
Better than 480i at least.
NormalFish
Banned
worse in my experience, but it probably has a lot to do with which games you compare.
Xbox is the nicest looking console from that gen, I find. Halo always looked amazingly clean to me.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
gamecube always looks nice too. but yeah, ps2 even on my crt looks awful in 480p. xbox looks fantastic in 480p.
Because the GameCube was a kids toy and the PS2 had GTA3. That's basically it, or at least how I experienced it back then.
Quick question to anyone who may be able to help - despite this PVM of mine being amazing, there is a small, very fine couple of scratches to the outer glass near the bottom. It's hard to see unless close up and I could live with it - but there must be some way to fill it and smooth it out, right?
NormalFish
Banned
Gamecube is a mixed bag for me. I think, honestly, it gets by on having so many colorful and clean looking games. There are plenty of games (Twilight Princess is a good example) that I feel break away from that cartoony cleanliness and the IQ definitely suffers for it. In TP's case, though, I find it actually kind of works to its advantage. I am a firm believer that the game looks fantastic.
PS2 was owned by more people. More people bought in to PS2. More people felt they needed to justify their purchase.
Same shit happens in every console generation, honestly. For all the PC community's issues, at least we don't have that one.
Same ways you'd buff out any scratch on anything, I suppose. Bit of grit and time. You might be better off sucking it up, though, since I could see trying to do very localized sanding on a monitor going very badly wrong.
I wonder if something for car windshield repair could do the trick, though.
It's trivial to do in software. Just some more calculations are needed.
But you know what, you get used to all the artifacts. xD
Why not. Would be interesting to see soft-clipping of RGB = (YCbCr)^(-1) values.
Edit:
Btw; You can also limit Y+C, and C, to get good RGB values again (a trade-off).
Edit II:
C = sqrt(Cb²+Cr²). By tuning them down, the filter's don't need to work as hard.
Have to admit, my first contact with PVM reality has been underwhelming to say the least. :/
The monitor itself is working fine and it arrived perfectly safe, but it's pretty old, IQ is not better than on my 21" Trinitron (the tiny screen helps to make it look 'sharp', but other than that there's no real advantage over my TV), and the geometry is way more wonky, especially on the right side. On top of that, the frame is off-center, and apparently the only way to fix it is to open the case and operate on the board itself (something I'd never dare to do by myself).
Sure it came almost for free, but yeah, that thing is not going to stay.
The monitor itself is working fine and it arrived perfectly safe, but it's pretty old, IQ is not better than on my 21" Trinitron (the tiny screen helps to make it look 'sharp', but other than that there's no real advantage over my TV), and the geometry is way more wonky, especially on the right side. On top of that, the frame is off-center, and apparently the only way to fix it is to open the case and operate on the board itself (something I'd never dare to do by myself).
Sure it came almost for free, but yeah, that thing is not going to stay.
If you're willing to travel to England I have a JVC! Bit of a distance to drive though...
My gf lives near London, and I'm around there quite often, but unfortunately that's something I could never carry with me, back to Italy. I massively appreciate, though, thank you.
No, it's ok. This first 'test' opened my mind a bit, and taught me a few things I'll be sure to remember, whenever I'll stumble across another one. For now, I'll keep rocking my Trinitron, which is still surprisingly healthy. If it wasn't for one infamous 'floppy corner' - afaik, quite a common flaw on those consumer flatscreens - I dare to say it's pretty decent.
The scratches may not be on the glass itself. We touched on this last month. ToD posted a picture:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=201095194&postcount=14654
The scratches are probably on the anti-glare coating. On the Sony monitor's, it's a plasticky sheet that's difficult to pry off. On a couple of my flat JVCs, it looks to be a layer that peels away when scratched with force. I didn't try this myself but it's evident from the damage on one of them... it came with a 16:9 bezel that must have been pressing against and wearing on the screen for years.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=201095194&postcount=14654
The scratches are probably on the anti-glare coating. On the Sony monitor's, it's a plasticky sheet that's difficult to pry off. On a couple of my flat JVCs, it looks to be a layer that peels away when scratched with force. I didn't try this myself but it's evident from the damage on one of them... it came with a 16:9 bezel that must have been pressing against and wearing on the screen for years.
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