jeff_rigby
Banned
Good, no-one in this thread should be taken seriously. It's all arm chair quarterbacking with some of us doing research to attempt to be accurate as that's part of the game.
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
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jeff_rigby
Banned
My PS3 is connected to a 1080P TV and it resyncs when going from Home (a 720P application) to the Browser (a 1080P application).jeff_rigby said:
That's what I said above.
The PS3 and Xbox 360 do not have apps that can overlay or interact with games and other applications. It makes sense to target a resolution that every other application or game will target, it makes the interaction easier. The 360 has a scaler the PS3 does not.
systemfehler
Member
Playstation 4 speculation from PSM3 magazine (via gamefront.de)
- Console will not be named PS4 but Playstation will be in the brand name (4 = shi in Japan which also can mean death)
- First generation games will look like the high-end PC demos of Watch Dogs, Star Wars 1313, Luminous tech demo
- Sony will show PS4 demos at E3 2013
- PS4 games will not run at 4k resolution - this will resolution will be only used for videos
- Standard will be 1080p@60fps
- Used games won't run easily (don't know how to translate that) on the PS4
- There will be an online pass as a security measure
- 4 to 8GB RAM, 8GB if MS goes 8GB
- 16GB Flash (SSD?) memory
- no BC
- Games have to be registered in the PSN account
- PS+ will be a important pillar of the PS4
- Each PS4 will be bundled with a PS Move compatible controller + camera
- Game classics will be made available via Gaikai
- In-game advertisment
- 4 core AMD APU code name Liverpool at 28nm
- 400-500 with a loss for Sony
- Console will not be named PS4 but Playstation will be in the brand name (4 = shi in Japan which also can mean death)
- First generation games will look like the high-end PC demos of Watch Dogs, Star Wars 1313, Luminous tech demo
- Sony will show PS4 demos at E3 2013
- PS4 games will not run at 4k resolution - this will resolution will be only used for videos
- Standard will be 1080p@60fps
- Used games won't run easily (don't know how to translate that) on the PS4
- There will be an online pass as a security measure
- 4 to 8GB RAM, 8GB if MS goes 8GB
- 16GB Flash (SSD?) memory
- no BC
- Games have to be registered in the PSN account
- PS+ will be a important pillar of the PS4
- Each PS4 will be bundled with a PS Move compatible controller + camera
- Game classics will be made available via Gaikai
- In-game advertisment
- 4 core AMD APU code name Liverpool at 28nm
- 400-500 with a loss for Sony
Wasn't Liverpool back when they were on Steamroller rather than Jaguar? Or is that still up in the air? Haven't been poking around in awhile.
As far as dev "standards" go, I wouldn't put too much stock into that. lol
Many developers will drop right back down to 720/30 (or less) if it suits them to do so for more shiny.
As far as dev "standards" go, I wouldn't put too much stock into that. lol
Many developers will drop right back down to 720/30 (or less) if it suits them to do so for more shiny.
Hydrargyrus
Member
500€
Oh god... this is too much, again
Oh god... this is too much, again
systemfehler
Member
Well the codename could always stay the same. I guess Sony wants a certain feature set and power/TDP ratio whereas the chip itself might be exchangeable. However I can't really comment on how serious/up2date PSM3 is.
Wolves Evolve
Member
Big talk again about stopping second hand sales. But second hand is how a whole huge number of people access games. Cut them out and your game product is fucking finished.
apart from the second point, everything sounds reasonable. But I guess the magazine just consolidated rumors...
I believe the codename under the Jaguar base is now different (Thebes I think?). So this could just be a rumour consolidation of several web sources, as mentioned.
The original spec sheets of the PS4 also mention 2GB of fast memory, but if they're going as high as Microsoft (8GB) they'd be using DDRx rather than the faster stuff as well. Basically you'll have 2 near-identical systems with small advantages one way or the other (ie maybe one has slightly more GPU juice, the other more CPU juice, more space, etc).
For reference, 16GB flash would probably be of the same type as the PS3 with flash, 360 4GB kit, Wii U, etc, to keep costs down.
SolarPowered
Member
Do it, Sony. Play that game of Russian roulette.
Move being packed in would be nice though. They should redesign it too. The Wii-mote makes it look butt ugly.
Canis lupus
Member
I'd rather have them bundle a simple headset with it instead of Move. I don't see the appeal of it. If you want motion controls buy Leap Motion.
I'm not putting any more stock in the idea because PSM3 speculates about it, but just for argument's sake, I wonder if they might carrot-and-stick-it . I've said before that PS+ seems like it's targeting low-expenditure users - i.e. the segment attracted to second hand games - among other things. Of course, I'd prefer them just to 'carrot' it, and not force an inability to play second hand games, but who knows what SCEJ is thinking. Although I note that PSM3 talks about making it more inconvenient rather than blocking it.
(For the record, Jack Tretton has said that blocking used games is something he is opposed to...but who knows, maybe there could be in-fighting going on about it...just for argument's sake
)Motion controls are (extremely likely, pretty much 100%) going to be standard across all consoles next gen, bundled with all consoles in some form.
SolidSnakex
Member
They should've left this out if they wanted anyone to take this list seriously.
Clay Davis
Member
I don't believe this. sony wouldn't be stupid enough to forego backwards compatibility completely.
registering games online / online passes is crazy talk.
but, to take it seriously for one moment. if any of the above (especially) the lack of backwards compatibility turn out to be true, I'm going to reconsider buying the next ps at launch.
sold, and some fairly conservative rumours there, which might mean achievable. I'd prefer 8GB though especially if a large chunk is taken for the OS - 4GB available to games minimum
not sure about move/camera, I hope they update the camera. Could use it for voice recognition too.
Maybe they'll combine move and the sixaxis, unless they feel the stick like nature of the move is useful in its own right for gesture based games. I'd also like them to consider twin LEDs or some other method of better IR pointing which is one area I found move to be worse than the wiimote.
I'd take the 'used games won't run easily' and 'online pass' together - its possible that online passes is the way that used games won't work easily. Either literally like current online passes, or requiring the same thing for single player (i.e the 'registering to PSN' part). But that excludes any offline players and there will still be plenty of those.
It won't be backwards compatible in the traditional sense.
Via cloud services, maybe.
I think for sure there'll be an updated camera and move. They appear to have been doing a lot of r&d around various new camera and move / controller technologies. Gaze tracking comes up a lot, which would require a new type of camera I think.
Only question for me is whether it'll be a peripheral or something in every box, and if the latter, if the 'move' component will be blended into the standard controller.
assuming move is a beta product, there are several ways to improve and lower costs to build it in as default
Camera is difficult to integrate but by including it in all skus you can bring voice and gesture controls to all games if you want, including the XMB which could be interesting.
Building all the gyro functionality into sixaxis should be trivial, so the only remaining part of the equation is how you bring pointer features. Perhaps they decide they aren't used enough and just use the WM+ style of relative pointing, which brings the cost down.
I'm interested to see what they do in that area. Potential is there to do it relatively affordably - certainly compared to kinect
Camera is difficult to integrate but by including it in all skus you can bring voice and gesture controls to all games if you want, including the XMB which could be interesting.
Building all the gyro functionality into sixaxis should be trivial, so the only remaining part of the equation is how you bring pointer features. Perhaps they decide they aren't used enough and just use the WM+ style of relative pointing, which brings the cost down.
I'm interested to see what they do in that area. Potential is there to do it relatively affordably - certainly compared to kinect
Ashler
Member
If these were to be true, Sony would be in big trouble, imo.
Brad Grenz
Member
If it's true, it will be something they are doing at the behest of third party publishers, and it would be a "feature" the next Xbox shares. Between day one digital and potentially single use game registration, I would not be surprised at all if Sony, MS, EA, Activision and other major publishers present a united front as they basically go to war with Gamestop.
They've patented a system that could get rid of the sphere (or, alternatively, work with a sphere if present), which is one obstacle to DS integration I guess. It's actually looks rather a lot like what a next generation of wiimote might have looked liked. It's a similar setup to the Wiimote with a camera or cameras on the controller rather than on the TV, but instead of looking at the TV or beacons on top of the TV, they look at beacons (infrared, presumably) that are projected from steerable lasers on unit on top of the TV or wherever. The beacons get projected around the room, on the ceiling etc. so that there's a high chance that no matter how you have manipulated the controller, it can see a beacon-set (that the system knows the location of), and can thus find its xyz and orientation. It would let them use lower latency sensors also than pseye.
...which isn't to say they will commercialise this. But they certainly have been busy filing a lot of applications around controllers and cameras in general in the past year or so, this one amongst them. Lots of interesting things, and it'll be interesting to see what makes the cut and what doesn't.
I'll stick with Wii U and PC/Steam then, not unless they can REALLY convince me there's a worthwhile game. And with how exclusives are going I'm guessing that's not likely.
Man, IF those things pan out it'd actually be sort of fitting if Sony and Microsoft imploded and only Nintendo survived.
NemesisPrime
Banned
90% fanboy nonsense IMHO.
Brad Grenz
Member
I always find it ironic when people balk at the idea of not being able to buy and trade used console games by saying "well, I'll just stick to Steam, then." The lack of a viable market for used PC games is one of the major reasons things like Steam sales are viable. If market conditions were the same for consoles, you'd see the same thing on that side. PS Plus is already a move in that direction, and by the sounds of it, Sony is planning a major Black Friday sale on full PS3 games available digitally through PSN next week.
Ghz means nothing. Jaguars (and even Steamrollers) are going to be running at a lower clock in a small closed space than Cell did (and the Pentium 4 as well, btw). For reference, Jaguars are the same type of CPU you'd see in a Netbook/tablet type device (low cost, low power, low wattage, etc). And there's nothing wrong with that, imo (whether it's 4 or 8 in a Sony/MS console).
The original spec sheet indicated that the PS4 would be more GPU-focused than CPU-focused, anyway.
Brad Grenz said:
I was with you until the bolded. I highly doubt you'll ever see on consoles what you do on Steam, even with a similar business model.
systemfehler
Member
1. I believe that the 16GB flash memory will be for the OS, savegames, game activation codes to be "temper proof" and the data, demos, etc. will still be on a 250+ HDDD
2. Like we already have in some games to get a used game fully functional you have to buy a code but I certainly doubt that there will be really a used game limitation beyond that.
2. Like we already have in some games to get a used game fully functional you have to buy a code but I certainly doubt that there will be really a used game limitation beyond that.
What do you think ? Is this a CPU powerful enough for a next-gen console ?
I don't understand technology as well as some but to me a 4 core CPU is not what I expected from Sony anno 2013. I still hope this turns out false, in any case the GPU will make up for it (7970).
I'm sure the CPU will serve the GPU well - and it's not a 7970. There is only so much you can squeeze in a console-sized box and to expect something that high-end will only leave you disappointed. You should care that there aren't any bottlenecks, not necessarily look for exotic tech. That's not Sony anymore (and for the better, imo).
JimmyRustler
Member
I don't get it. Why are people complaining so much when it come to the used game issue? In the other thread 95% said that they'd even appreciate if the industry goes online only, which means no used games any more. So why all the fuzz when it comes to acutal used games?
Icomp
Member
You seem to have crazy high expectations. I think you might just become disappointed.
systemfehler
Member
Even in most computers and notebooks the CPU is a lot less important than in consoles. When I play Dishonored on my notebook ("console" settings) I can leave the i7 at 930MHz and the game runs fine - the GPU does most of the work. So if a switch from Steamroller to Jaguar gives more room in the TDP/cost departement for the GPU I am all in for that.
Chuck Norris
Banned
I dunno. EB would hate it, but developers and publishers would love it
I think it's a bad move though rather anti consumer
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Well as far as I know the only real benifit from 64 bit is a 64 bit variable only has to get calculated once, unlike having to calculate two 32 bit variables on a 32 bit machine. Maybe game engines just don't see a use for making any variables larger than 32 bits? My experience pretty much ends at using the engines on a personal level, but I don't know of any traditional use for variables larger than that.
I'm sure there's some algorithms that people can use to pipeline data into a larger containers before unpacking them later, but that sort of thing certainly seems more suited to things like encrypting, not necessarily to make real time lighting and shadow calcualtions to run faster.
I mean I'm open to hearing how i'm wrong from someone that knows more than me, but that's how I see it. Especially if both consoles don't care to use 64 bit and epic and crytek don't complain about it, like they have been about ram.
Brad Grenz
Member
Why not? We're talking about the same exact Publishers, often selling the same exact games. Why wouldn't they want to see the same kind of revenue boost they get from Steam sales on the PlayStation Store of Xbox Live Marketplace?
Retailers will have something to say about that. Those retailers still need to stock the console hardware and accessories. I don't personally believe that those types of conditions will ever be the same, at least not to a Steam sale level, on consoles. The very nature of the hardware walled garden prevents it, imo.
Brad Grenz
Member
Sure, but I was postulating a scenario where MS and Sony and all the major publishers are on the same side in confronting the retail establishment. No one could go it alone in that situation, but if they all do get on board at the same time Gamestop will have to decide whether they want to become the world's biggest chain of retro gaming shops in retaliation, or cave and stock the new stuff even if they can't keep propping themselves up with used inventory.
Chuck Norris
Banned
And why is that? If anything, Steam shows a precedent of it working.
Admittedly I have high expectations but not completely inflated ones I think. 8 years after the 360 we are entitled to expect great hardware from MS and Sony.
I'm sure they saw what gamers have been mildly impressed with, Agni's, SW1313, Watch Dogs, they are not stupid enough to come up with a machine that could not handle those games in all their glory.
Believe.
StoppedInTracks
Member
There is no other way, though, The whole DD thing that started 5 years ago must end with 0 used sales. What do you think happens if everything goes digital in the next 5 years and/ or streaming services take off for good?
Used sales = dead in the future.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
And why is that? If the PS4 is really as powerful as rumors says then I don't see that as a impossiblity
I can throw just about any game on my high end pc and it will run it at 1080p@60+
Only games that won't run at that frame are those where devs are trying to maximize the system, which won't be many.
Everything regarding this latest rumor sounds plausible (yes, even the online pass becoming the norm) except the upper price range. $500? Don't think so, too much. I doubt Sony will go balls to the wall in console specs, they will probably go affordable. And affordable means no super-duper sexy ultra powerful tech.
But still, 4 cores? Unless GPGPU does all the heavy lifting, they should juice up that CPU.
But still, 4 cores? Unless GPGPU does all the heavy lifting, they should juice up that CPU.
Developers could have gone 1080P@60FPS this generation as well. They don't because they rather have nice looking screenshots and trailers. Trailers are shown at 720P@30 FPS on tv at best. They rather add better effects and run the game at 720p@30FPS sadly. Doubt we will see 1080p@60FPS become the standard next generation. More common propably, and I am gladly proven wrong.
Those games were all run on a GTX 680 and i7. You won't get that level of hardware in any of the consoles. What you will get is developers (the intelligent ones) doing the same tricks they did this gen to achieve an output that is comparable in some or even many ways.
I lol'd. Resolution and/or framerate will be the first things to go in any game that wants to have a better screenshot. Look at this gen as a clear indicator. If you're expecting all games next gen on the HD-er twins to be 1080/60 I have a bridge to sell you. Edit: the poster above put it better than I did. 720p/30 wasn't even a standard this gen, despite MS touting that at launch (while simultaneously releasing subHD games right off the bat).
In your scenario, which is admittedly plausible in some fashion, you'd basically be closing down the biggest specialty gaming retailer in the long run. Is that good for the industry at large?
At the end of the day, game software discs still have at least 1 more generation left. You're going to piss off retailers if you drastically undercut them on your digital store. That's why I don't think that it's happening yet.
H_Prestige
Banned
So basically not a single good thing about it. Even the name will suck. But since this is Sony, none of this would surprise me.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Maybe not. Sony is branching from the industry and calling their 4K resolution TVs 4K Ultra High Resolution rather than just Ultra High Resolution as 8K is on the horizon and it's called Ultra High Resolution in Japan. If they can use 4K in Japan for this it might be used for the PS4 as I think 4K resolution blu-ray and TV support is one of the big features of the PS4 and the 4 too good a tie in to loose.
There may be some 4K games a few years after release. 1080P@60fps and the same game having a 1080P S3D @30fps mode has been mentioned by several developer leaks. IF the game targets 1080p@60fps it can do a 3-D mode @30fps. If the target is 1080P (a Durango rumor confirms this) then OS applications and overlays on games will be easier to implement if everything is targeted at 1080P then the console scales that to the TV resolution, down to 720P or up to 4K.
16GB Flash SSD memory has been all but confirmed, it's in a 2011 AMD article and at least one leak and it makes sense. It will be in the SoC for security reasons and is part of AMD's portfolio of process optimized building blocks.
No BC is speculation that I hope is wrong. It appears from a 1) 2011 article, Sony investing in R&D in China for PS3 China home grown games and 2) Sony recently got a 3C China certification that is a first step in selling the PS3 in China as possibly a multi-media console that also plays games or PC that plays games (both legal and bypass the 2000 game console ban) that Sony has targeted sales of the PS3 in China and third world countries. It should start after a 22nm refresh around 2014ish (Cheaper power efficient PS3). If true then the PS3 has a much longer life and may be supported in the PS4 SoC.
With the refresh to 22nm will be the need for new security schemes which will require a separate firmware going forward. Optimally a major redesign needed in any case might have Sony moving to a PS3 fusion 1 SoC unified memory design using the Sony Cell MPA patent.
High resolution depth camera + Move controller
How Sony is going to implement the hardware and the price are the wildest speculation. 28nm is reasonable but the 2010 Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint had 22nm SOI or 28nm bulk high power. Projections from 2008 had 22nm SOI ready for 2011 but that was revised by the industry adding 3 years to the timetable in 2009 so 2014 for 22nm SOI and timetables for bulk Low Power have 2014 for 20nm. The choice appears to be 28nm bulk which is going to reduce the performance TDP (due to leakage) of the SoC or 22nm SOI which many think is unlikely for even a March 2014 launch as is speculated by several.
The target date for 3D AMD stacking, process optimized building blocks, full HSA designs, 20nm and custom SoCs was 2014. This is also the target date for DDR4 in quantity but Micron has announced DDR4 will be available in quantity 3rd quarter 2013. Problem is the AMD target is low power on bulk and that would limit the performance we expect from a game console.
Game console volume and the multi-year production of the same SoC can support earlier production than announced for lower volume customers. FD-SOI can use bulk designs with minor changes.
The Xbox 720 powerpoint was 2010 and after the 3 year delay for 22nm was announced in 2009 so it mentioning 22nm SOI or 28nm Bulk should be taken seriously. IT also seems that GloFlo is only supporting bulk for 28nm but ST Microelectronics recently transfered libraries for 28nm and 20nm SOI designs to GloFlo so they could make Chips for ST Microelectronics starting at 28nm. GloFlo only had plans for bulk @ 28nm but in professional lectures is working with 22nm SOI but news articles from AMD are only mentioning 20nm bulk. IBM, GloFlo and Samsung are working on 22nm SOI since 2008.
if that is true Sony will go bancrupt in 2017
Well a 4 Core Intel i7 will propably keep until the next generation. If a cpu with that power is used in a console where they can optimize it better I don't see a problem at all. GPU is where the bottleneck usually is. An i3 can take on most games today with little performance loss in comparison with an i7.