The Smurfs went to Terra too? (Admittedly not a part of the story people care to dwell on.)
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Warhammer 40,000 |OT| In the Grim Darkness of the Community Forum There Is Only War
- Thread starter GarthVaderUK
- Start date
The Smurfs went to Terra too? (Admittedly not a part of the story people care to dwell on.)
Not for the Battle of Terra. Sanguinius, Dorn and Khan were the only loyalist primarchs who participated there.
Thought you were wondering why they wouldn't get to Terra at all, not why they got there later. ^^;
Only the Blood Angels make it there in time, so it'd have to be something that delays Reboot and the Lion but not Sanguinius... Curze and the Night Lords captured at the conclusion of the Thramas Crusade?
Yeah, the Lion buggering off and not being able to get there in time is much more reasonable than Girlyman doing so. Wondering what they'll cook up.
SillyEskimo
Member
The Lion was waiting to see who won before choosing a side. He took his sweet time on purpose. The Dark Angels have heresy within them. The entire first company is nothing more than a warrior lodge within a single chapter. They have secrets within secrets that they keep not only from the imperium at large, but also their very own battle brothers.
Nah, the Lion is hyper loyal. He went pretty far to deny Horus materiel before the Dropsite Massacre.
Erebus and Kor Pharon would be more specific. They got the "hey lets go meet with daemons" into Lorgars head. Erebus even struts around calling himself "The Hand of Destiny" after the Heresy breaks out.
so Horus and Magnus were simply victims
SillyEskimo
Member
All the Primarchs were hyper loyal at one point in time. The Dark Angels and their successor chapters are known as the Unforgiven for a reason. All of their battle brothers left on Caliban turned to chaos and followed Luthor. The Dark Angels chapter would be labelled Excommunicate Traitoris if that truth got out, but instead they hide the secret like the untrustworthy chapter that they are. They also constantly scrutinize each other for signs of chaos because of their traitorous past. It is within them, after all.
The Dark Angels exist only to further their own interests (hunting the Fallen). The Imperium always has and always will be is secondary to that. The Emperor should have released the Space Wolves upon them once El' Johnson died on Caliban.
All of that's true, but you said that Lion wasn't loyal and could've sided with the traitors. Which isn't true. There was a theory that Luther was the loyalist and Lion was the traitor, but that got buried with the Fallen Angels novel.
Enosh
Member
the Dark Angels wish it was this simple ^^
Nah they're not victims. Horus trusted other people over his father whom he was closest to amongst his sons, and Magnus was arrogant enough to think he could get the better of Tzeentch despite not really knowing as much as he thought he did.
They made bad choices in tough situations so they're not entirely detestable, however.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
You do realize he let that happen, right?
why did he let her kill him?
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
It comes down to a couple of possible reasons.
One was the idea of the wronged must be punished which there was quote about him saying that. In a sense he had guilt for what he had done.
Two was that he was trying to prove a point to the Emperor was sinking into his level and that his ideas were right.
Dunno. Not all of Dorns sons were able to answer the call, like the Soul Drinkers, so that might be the case. We know a bunch of first founding chapters are embroiled in desperate battles and were barely able to send a single ship to meet with Koorland on Terra.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
The size of the Ork invasion had to be big enough to distract a lot of the space marines from going to Terra. Another thing to think about is the nature of the Imperial Fists and their connections to their successor chapters aka The Last Wall.
StaffyManasse
Member
After getting into the miniature side of 40k in the last six months, I've also started to dig into the mountain of books available. Maybe you could give me some advice.
I started with Horus Heresy, as it seemed like a good place to start and I got the Crusade's End Omnibus for cheap and I am now getting close to the ending of False Gods. Diving straight into Galaxy in Flames next of course, but after that I am not sure. I'm thinking The Flight of The Eisenstein and Fulgrim, but after that it starts getting muddy. With the huge amount of books in the series and me being a slow reader I am feeling a bit worried I will never get through them all.
How important is it to just keep trucking through all of those books in the series, or should I pick what I am most interested with? I am mostly interested in the big picture, the most important events and what happens to Ultramarines (yeah I know, I'm the guy who started 40k hobby with Ultramarines).
I started with Horus Heresy, as it seemed like a good place to start and I got the Crusade's End Omnibus for cheap and I am now getting close to the ending of False Gods. Diving straight into Galaxy in Flames next of course, but after that I am not sure. I'm thinking The Flight of The Eisenstein and Fulgrim, but after that it starts getting muddy. With the huge amount of books in the series and me being a slow reader I am feeling a bit worried I will never get through them all.
How important is it to just keep trucking through all of those books in the series, or should I pick what I am most interested with? I am mostly interested in the big picture, the most important events and what happens to Ultramarines (yeah I know, I'm the guy who started 40k hobby with Ultramarines).
HH starts to waddle a bit after Fulgrim so you don't need to read every "oh this Legion did this during Isstvan" book. I'd suggest Legion for Alpha Legion motivation, A Thousand Sons + Prospero Burns if you want to read about the sacking of Prospero and what led to it. The First Heretic is a great book and it shows how Lorgar came to worship the Pantheon and sow the seeds of the Heresy.
Know No Fear sets up the middle arc (which is imo, of questionable quality, but ymmv) and it's full of smurfs. Angel Exterminatus and Fear to Tread are mostly sidestores but there's one important event in each, I'd suggest reading at least Angel Exterminatus. Betrayer goes back to the Ultramar theater and slightly prods the story forwards.
Vulkan Lives is mostly filler but you'll be confused as fuck if you don't read at least a synopsis of it. Unremembered Empire is nigh heretical but it's again full of smurfs for you. Scars + The Path of Heaven don't matter in the big stage other than showing how the White Scars got back to Terra, but they're pretty good.
Vengeful Spirit is about the main guy of the Heresy (read it!). Deathfire is again mostly filler outside of the ending (notice a pattern with Salamanders books?). Pharos wraps up the middle arc.
And that's basically it. The rest of the books are mostly sidestories or novella collections.
StaffyManasse
Member
Thanks! Just what I was looking for! This list looks a bit more manageable.
DKehoe
Member
Thanks for this too. My only real knowledge of 40k comes from dipping in and out of wikis and having read the first three Horus Heresy books. I had recently been thinking of reading more Horus Heresy but wasn't sure what would be the best way to do so. So this is really helpful!
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
SillyEskimo
Member
Don't forget GW's official reading order:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/horus-heresy-reading-order.html
I thought Flight of the Eisenstein was one of the very best books in the series. It starts slow, but pound for pound it crams in some huge events and kicks off the origins a dozen characters and conflicts.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/horus-heresy-reading-order.html
I thought Flight of the Eisenstein was one of the very best books in the series. It starts slow, but pound for pound it crams in some huge events and kicks off the origins a dozen characters and conflicts.
lol, I've been like, "WHAT ABOUT THE SOUL DRINKERS, ASSHOLES????" in the back of my mind ever since this plotline started and I just got to the Soul Drinkers fanservice in
Throneworld
It seems really tone deaf, especially since one of the themes is how much some legions have drifted and we're at the third generation now, and a wasted opportunity for more Game of Thrones / Dune politicking (given Fafnir Rann was the first chapter master of the Executioners, they would have been a nice ally for the Black Templars during the Imperial Fist successors' pissing contest), but I'll let it lie. For now.
Enosh
Member
if you want a less manageable list that gives a general overview of all the plot threads and how they are connected, including most of the novellas and short stories
http://shrani.si/f/28/CW/4uDNFDu3/dependenciesen.png
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
if you want a less manageable list that gives a general overview of all the plot threads and how they are connected, including most of the novellas and short stories
http://shrani.si/f/28/CW/4uDNFDu3/dependenciesen.png
Unremembered Empire is crazy for how many plot lines go into that book.
I don't think you picked the best place to start book-wise (stories set in M41 or near it are more welcoming to newcomers imo), but you're already in deep now so it's a bit late to close the barn door.
Personally I advocate reading about what you want to read about. As you've no doubt gathered from the many helpful posts by the other regulars in 40K-GAF, there are several skeins that comprise the HH series. (It's not quite a comic universe, but it's helpful to think of it in those terms instead of a linear series and proceed accordingly.) Luckily for you, people love the Smurfs and Games Workshop loves picking pockets so you'll get lots of stories with relevance to the overall goings on in the titular heresy if you stick with what you like.
The only caveat with the "read what you're interested in" method is that unless your topic of interest is a pet of a particular author (Chris Wraight and the White Scars, for example), you will be reading books of wildly variable quality and even logical consistency. In The Crimson Fist Perturabo is a Saturday morning cartoon villain, in Angel Exterminatus he is a tortured genius who plays tabletop Warhammer 40K with his men. Both those stories still somehow manage to be great though. Confused? So are the rest of us.
Outside that, I would say that you should read the "Horus" books (Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, Vengeful Spirit) and the books about Istvaan III and V (Flight of the Eisenstein, Fulgrim) because this is, after all, the Horus Heresy.
StaffyManasse
Member
if you want a less manageable list that gives a general overview of all the plot threads and how they are connected, including most of the novellas and short stories
http://shrani.si/f/28/CW/4uDNFDu3/dependenciesen.png
Actually...this is pretty great. I could use it to make my own list. Thanks!
Thanks, the "Horus" books was something I was going to focus on. That's what I meant with the "big picture" in my original post. And then Ultramarines because that's my army.
edit.
so uhm...I see Battle for the Abyss by Ben Counter leads to Know No Fear (which I 100% want to read). The internet says Abyss is bad. How bad is it? Should I just go from First Heretic to Know No Fear?
The regular humans are doing all the politics, someone's gotta actually win the war. Though there would've been a lot more Astartes politics in the Hunt for Vulkan, but well... Vulkan.
Abyss is barely relevant for Know No Fear.
StaffyManasse
Member
Gotcha. Probably skipping that one, then. Seems like nobody likes it anyway.
If you read a lot of 40K stuff you get used to a certain amount of its grimdark going over the line and falling on its face. If it fails, you can at least laugh at it.
In contrast, Ben Counter writes outright bleak stories, which is not the greatest thing to pair with an early Ultramarines tale. Abyss isn't atrocious, or painfully pointless, but it feels very out of place. He should've been tasked with something from the Battle of Calth instead imo.
In contrast, Ben Counter writes outright bleak stories, which is not the greatest thing to pair with an early Ultramarines tale. Abyss isn't atrocious, or painfully pointless, but it feels very out of place. He should've been tasked with something from the Battle of Calth instead imo.
SillyEskimo
Member
I just expect everyone I have never heard of before to die in every 40k book I read. It's almost always true.
Emperor help you if you aint cannon!
Emperor help you if you aint cannon!
Enosh
Member
I really enjoyed Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels which are also both considered to be shit, so my standards aren't exactly high, but even I found Abyss to be just kinda bad
although I really liked the twist that the demon was there the whole time and it was him who was making the space wolves guy antagonistic towards the thousand sons dude
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
It's pretty much a 80's action movie but in 30k.
I've been reading these two books in the last 2 months.
The adage 'show, don't tell' is fit to describe these two authors and books. While Abnett show us how secrecy and full of layers the Alpha Legion is, Scanlon talks, talks, talks...and then he does more talking, and then some one of Black Library probably comes in and says that he has a limit number of pages and just rushes the final.
It was very difficult to me to read Descent of Angels. The book is boring and it's a shame because the Dark Angels legion deserved better for all the lore that they have in this universe.
Thank God I read the books in order and was able to enjoy Legion after. Abnett did it again I guess.
Battle for the Abyss was one of the very very few out of all the Horus Heresy books I couldn't even get half way thru. It was so poorly written that I felt sick reading it more and more.
Just had to stop.
Galaxy in Flames I quite enjoyed by Ben Counter. But Abyss.... was.... Abysmal.
Just had to stop.
Galaxy in Flames I quite enjoyed by Ben Counter. But Abyss.... was.... Abysmal.
EYEL1NER
Member
Speaking of Ben Counter, I am still bummed that his Grey Knights stories will probably never see a follow-up. I liked Justicar Alaric quite a bit and was really interested in seeing where they would take him after the third book when it seems like he'll be working on something shadowy for Inquisitor Nyxos (pretty sure it was Nyxos, anyway). Sometime after reading the GK omnibus I asked on B&C if anyone thought that there would be a continuation of Alaric's story and the consensus was that there probably wouldn't be, since GW/Black Library had started a new Grey Knights line of books and since Alaric's story is set during the 13th Black Crusade and was too recent to advance yet.
I still need to get my hands on the Soul Drinkers books and Daemon World. I liked the characters that Counter created in the GK books and I know that Soul Drinkers is more highly-regarded. And I can't see how Daemon World could be bad after reading his depiction of a daemon world already in the third GK book Hammer of Daemons.
I still need to get my hands on the Soul Drinkers books and Daemon World. I liked the characters that Counter created in the GK books and I know that Soul Drinkers is more highly-regarded. And I can't see how Daemon World could be bad after reading his depiction of a daemon world already in the third GK book Hammer of Daemons.
For what it's worth, I found the 2nd Dark Angels book (Fallen Angels) a lot more palatable. And Abnett is pretty much a seal of quality. The only exception I can think of is his Beast Arises book which was just middling.
Will see.
I'm trying to read the books in order, even the ones everyone considers bad, so next stop will be Battle for the Abyss by Ben Counter.
I liked that he made the Horus Heresy unglamorous. Even darker books like Fulgrim or Damnation of Pythos have their moments of (sometimes doomed) heroism, and while this is the "age of myth" in 40K, it's still the grim darkness of the far future and that definitely falls by the wayside more than I'd prefer.
Admittedly he did this in a very roundabout fashion (e.g. the sameness of the battles), which is why I feel it falls flat for a lot of readers (beyond the general love / hate response Ben Counter usually gets) who are used to being led by the nose.
Unrelated: Throneworld has been great (aside from like 5 Harlequins killing a bunch of Custodes lolwut), easily the best book in The Beast Arises so far. Nice to see Guy Haley get a crack at the spotlight; I think he gets the final book in the series too.
I never read any of Black Library's Warhammer Fantasy stuff, but I was always lead to believe Gotrek & Felix was alright / decent... David Guymer's book in The Beast Arises (Echoes of the Long War) is painful. I swear he averages a simile every other sentence, which is occasionally hilarious when he uses 40K minutiae in them (e.g. "X like a chrono-gladiator."), but otherwise just makes for extremely stilted prose. Even by the low standards Black Library sets.
It's a real bummer that he gets another book in the series, I'd take another Abnett Certified Turkey™ like I Am Slaughter over more of that.
It's a real bummer that he gets another book in the series, I'd take another Abnett Certified Turkey™ like I Am Slaughter over more of that.
SillyEskimo
Member
The Beast Arises is garbage. It is by far the worst series GW has ever done.
Enosh
Member
man Angel exterminatus is awesome, so many great moments
-pert smashing fulgrims face on his mini titan
-everything about pert in general, his wish to just build some cool stuff, although I didn't quite feel like he would be despised enough to turn traitor, he seemed to look fondly at the Emperor and even some loyalist brothers and I don't get why exactly all the remembrancers would be dragging the IWs through the mud like that, not doing any heroic stuff about them like they did the other legions, I know sieges aren't the most interesting stuff but still there is plenty of opportunity in a siege to portray some heroic character for none of them to have done it kinda strains credibility,
-the IW basically playing VR 30k ^^
-"something wrong with the floor brother Sharrowkyn"
-Sharrowkyn gutting Fabious and Lucius, god those 2 assholes deserved it
-everything about the Iron Hands techpriest dude with his experiments
-and my favorite "WHAT? didn't catch that" after the deaf morlock kills the noise marine leader
-everything about pert in general, his wish to just build some cool stuff, although I didn't quite feel like he would be despised enough to turn traitor, he seemed to look fondly at the Emperor and even some loyalist brothers and I don't get why exactly all the remembrancers would be dragging the IWs through the mud like that, not doing any heroic stuff about them like they did the other legions, I know sieges aren't the most interesting stuff but still there is plenty of opportunity in a siege to portray some heroic character for none of them to have done it kinda strains credibility,
-the IW basically playing VR 30k ^^
-"something wrong with the floor brother Sharrowkyn"
-Sharrowkyn gutting Fabious and Lucius, god those 2 assholes deserved it
-everything about the Iron Hands techpriest dude with his experiments
-and my favorite "WHAT? didn't catch that" after the deaf morlock kills the noise marine leader
StaffyManasse
Member
Just got through Galaxy in Flames. I knew what was about to go down but still got the chills.
Eisenstein should be in the mailbox any day now. I'm hooked!
Eisenstein should be in the mailbox any day now. I'm hooked!
I really enjoyed those books, I may have to re read them at some point, but I just pulled out Eisenhorn though... Might have to get into that first.
So the next thing for me to read sounds like vengeful spirit, that's the name of Horus' flagship, right?