Given that Armature produced the absolute garbage Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate while the remaining Retro talent produced the amazing DKC Returns and Tropical Freeze, I question whether the guys who formed Armature were the guys who made the Prime games great in the first place.
What should Retro Studios work on?
- Thread starter Jonneh3003
- Start date
Given that Armature produced the absolute garbage Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate while the remaining Retro talent produced the amazing DKC Returns and Tropical Freeze, I question whether the guys who formed Armature were the guys who made the Prime games great in the first place.
What makes you think that? If anything, if Nintendo DIDN'T think highly of retro they never would've been given such IPs to work with. They would've just been relegated to asset work like in MK7 only.
Hero of Legend
Member
Armature was formed by the Prime series' director, art director, and lead engineer.
Pretty major IMO.
Nintendo likely doesn't embellish their studios by calling them "gods" or anything of the sort, but I also don't think they don't think highly of them. I think its more that, on some level, Nintendo doesn't know how to manage them well and, as is rumored, there was some sort of falling out between Retro and Tanabe who was their *manager* so to speak.
Three people don't make a game.
But the creative *lead* talent *interested* in Metroid has left, that's for sure.
daTRUballin
Member
Batman is a completely different game from Metroid Prime. The real question is: Who would be able to make a better Metroid Prime 4, Armature or the remaining Retro talent?
It doesn't matter who they were. I reiterate: They went on to make an absolute garbage game, while the people who remained at Rare went on to make amazing games. So I think it's reasonable to question whether it was their influence that made Retro great, and whether their influence is enough to make another studio great.
It's crazy to say, "Since these guys left, Retro sucks now and Armature is going to be amazing," when the evidence points to the exact opposite.
What happened with Tanabe?Nintendo likely doesn't embellish their studios by calling them "gods" or anything of the sort, but I also don't think they don't think highly of them. I think its more that, on some level, Nintendo doesn't know how to manage them well and, as is rumored, there was some sort of falling out between Retro and Tanabe who was their *manager* so to speak.
Three people don't make a game.
On twitter, Tamaki of Unseen 64 implied Retro Studios and Tanabe had a major falling out, but that he wouldn't say anything more because of Iwata's death, (which I found kinda distateful and attention-grabbing...)
In an interview made after tamaki's statement, Tanabe said he is "not quite sure" what Retro is working despite being producer on all their games.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
Truer words have never been spoken. I'm in the minority of loving Prime 3 as much, if not more than the first two though.
Retro isn't a big studio. Teams like HAL, Intelligent Systems, and Monolith are far bigger. Those are all 120-150 person teams. Teams like Retro and Next Level are around 80. If Nintendo wanted they could easily assign EPD staff on a Metroid project.
No, but there are plenty of people who worked on the Prime games still there. And having the new blood add their ideas would help make it feel fresh. They didn't hire chopped liver to replace those that left if the DK games are anything to go by.
Ok, now you'll need to explain to me who Tamaki and Unseen 64 are :/
Armature hasn't exactly given us reason to believe they would be able to produce a better Metroid Prime and I don't even think they can afford to.
A fun game is a fun game. Batman wasn't fun. Literally everything about it was bad, from the controls to the level design to the map system to the boss fights, Jesus christ the boss fights. Arkham Origins Blackgate is one of the worst games I've ever bought day 1, up there with Other M, and maybe even worse, and anyone who knows my thoughts on Other M knows that that's saying something. I have no reason to believe that if they'd made a different type of game, it would've been better.
If ReCore turns out great, I'll gain some faith in them. But as of this moment, I would place absolutely all of my money on Retro being able to make the better Metroid game.
wild wild rice
Member
This could just be his way of dodging the question.
unseen 64 is a website collecting information about cancelled games and pre-release showings of game
tamaki is one of their writer, he did investigations on a lot of things like factor 5's cancelled kid icarus game, metroid dread and project HAMMER (the tweets I was referring to being made around the same time as that last video)
maybe, but that's pretty odd wording to me when simple pr-speak ("i'm not allowed to talk about this at this time") would do.
Hero of Legend
Member
Tamaki is the guy who gave the scoops about Project HAMMER, Wave Race Wii, NST's amiibo game (revealed to be Mini Mario & Friends), and Unseen64 is a site dedicated to finding info on canned games and stuff cut from games.
Edit: Beaten.
Astral Dog
Member
They should work on a new ip
TheSpaceBetween
Member
Of course it is. Even if there was a fallout, he would know what they were working on. I mean, the man straight up lied and said that Retro wasn't working on a sequel to DKCR.
Maybe i'm in the minority here but if they were to revisit the Metroid Prime series I feel like the only way I would want to play that would be with the Wiimote + Nunchuck combo.
Some may call it sacrilege but for me it was the only way to play those games. Sadly with the Wii U on it's way out I don't see that happening.
Here's hoping they make those controllers compatible on the NX.
Some may call it sacrilege but for me it was the only way to play those games. Sadly with the Wii U on it's way out I don't see that happening.
Here's hoping they make those controllers compatible on the NX.
He's not their supervisor anymore, so he may well not know. But it doesn't really rule out a falling out.
They are guys who hunts for insider leaks on dead projects or studio interworkings, and generally deal in rumors that they tend to have corroborated with insider sources that they have. They've leaked a number of things.
The other rumor is that Retro pitched their own game idea (potentially a brand new IP) in 2013 and it was approved, if that is the case then Nintendo most certainly has a high opinion of them because that's generally rare. Nintendo's subsidiaries are usually given projects rather than the other way around unless the idea is really good (see: Splatoon) and they have faith in the developers.
Retro's always made games under "order" so to speak. Metroid was handed to them over the projects that they were working on and couldn't seemingly get done, and later Miyamoto recommended them for working on DKC, which is where we are today. In the meantime, some key figures (specifically those attached to Metroid) left the studio, and Tanabe is unlikely to hand over Metroid Prime (especially if there was a falling out). So unless Sakamoto gives Retro the go ahead on a 2D successor or a Fusion successor, and Retro wanted to make it, don't expect a Metroid from them.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
I'm with you. It's a major reason why Prime 3 is the most "fun" game in the series.
poet at play
Banned
Yes, 'Lol' at the design director, the art director and the principle technology engineer for the entire Metroid Prime Trilogy, right ?
They're likely the men behind the Ravenblade concept too.
Their Metal Gear Solid HD ports are sheer excellence, and the work that went into their development is amazing - from what I've read, they practically rebuilt them from scratch.
They also made other well received ports such as Borderlands with four-player split-screen, and the Unfinished Swan, and have now been trusted with Igarashi's upcoming Bloodstained.
Recore's brief concept trailer alone looks more interesting to me than anything Nintendo have made in years (since the Ravenblade, Eternal Darkness, Metroid Prime era).
Donkey Kong is definitely not the sort of IP I can get excited about, personally.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
They should make a game with the western audience and aesthetics in mind. A brand new FPS/Adventure franchise, a Fallout, Diablo or Mass Effect like adventure, something to appeal to this audience. They need to differ themselves a bit from Nintendo's aesthetics and IPs and have an identity of their own.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
I think they are highly important to Nintendo just as much so as their other studios. At the same time people who say they're "above" making DK is just ridiculous. I remember when they were making their Wii U game and everybody thought it was Star Fox, a new Metroid, Startropics for some reason or a new IP and then it was Donkey Kong and everybody freaked. But that's what Retro Studios are. The Donkey Kong guys. There's nothing wrong with that DKCR 1 and 2 are amazing but every it seems like everybody expects too much from them.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
Where was it revealed that he's not their supervisor anymore? How about Tabeta?
Also, Miyamoto has expressed a desire for Retro to work on another Prime game. And whatever game Retro is working on now was begun under Iwata's Presidency. Iwata is another man who had a huge respect for Retro. If the two of them wanted Retro to work on a Prime game, I doubt there is anything Tanabe could do to stop that, whether he is their supervisor or not.
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
Something completely original, hopefully without Nintendo reps overseeing the process.
secretanchitman
Member
F-Zero, StarTropics, another DKC or Metroid Prime.
Tamaki is the guy who gave the scoops about Project HAMMER, Wave Race Wii, NST's amiibo game (revealed to be Mini Mario & Friends), and Unseen64 is a site dedicated to finding info on canned games and stuff cut from games.
Edit: Beaten.
I see, so they are pretty much "in the know" about these things. Sad to see that happen between Retro and Tanabe then.
Maybe it had something to do with that rumor you're talking about Vena, about them wanting to work on their own game. Maybe Tanabe wanted another Metroid Prime-esque game instead and that's where the disagreement came from.
I can see retro being given the freedom to work on their first original thing. They honestly deserve it and I actually hope it is something new.
Spieler Eins
Member
Well, that's one of the last things that's gonna happen. NCL decides what they make.
You listed a bunch of ports and a game we've seen nothing of.
Didn't retro want to do donkey kong?
I think it's the other way around. If Tamaki's rumor is correct then the implication is that Tanabe wanted them to make another Prime game and Retro didn't causing a split.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I feel like shitting on Armature is missing the point of why Retro might not be in the best position to make Metroid Prime 4. They might not be individually more talented than other Retro staff but they probably were very influential in pushing the games the way they did. Their absence doesn't mean Retro sucks now or that they're "limited" to Donkey Kong (which is dumb, there's nothing inferior about platformers to Metroid) but a lot of the people that probably made Metroid great are gone now. There's still a lot of talent and maybe they could make a kickass Metroid Prime 4 that revitalizes the series and wins back its position as a Nintendo franchise, but it's definitely not set in stone and the people there might just want to move on.
Who knows, all we have are rumors.
Miyamoto offered them the IP, they accepted.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
They made one original game, which sucked. They also made a bunch of ports which are quite good but they're not indicitive of what they're capable of as a dev studio. It's also laughable that you think a game that we know nothing of is "more interesting than anything Nintendo have made in years."
The whole outrage with Tropical Freeze, I think at least, had more to do with there already being quite a few platformers already being on the Wii U. A lot of people love the game we did get and I don't think people really hates Retro for making such great DK games. But thinking about how we got games like the Prime series from the studio and the console already having a good amount of the platforming genre, I'm not surprised some people were disappointed. Some way more than others lol.
poet at play
Banned
Recore's brief concept trailer alone looks more interesting to me than anything Nintendo have made in years (at least since the Ravenblade, Eternal Darkness, Metroid Prime era).
I've my own reasons to be more excited by the work of the former Retro guys than I do in a Donkey Kong developer, sorry if you don't share my taste.
IrishNinja
Member
basically came in here to echo Metriod & remind folks how overrated DKC is, but that Mother suggestion could be interesting i guess
Spieler Eins
Member
It would have already been received much better if it was 3D Donkey Kong or something and not some copy of the last title, which had just rereleased on 3DS (plus, as suggested, in a way oversaturated genre that doesn't feel very ambitious - it was refreshing when they've brought back some 2D titles late into the Wii life, but then Nintendo overestimated the success and just went overboard).
TheDinoman
Member
Isn't Recore yet another Inafune thing? We know how his past ventures have turned out (Mighty No. 9 from the looks of things, that penquin game being canned, Yaiba, etc). I wouldn't get too excited for it.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze was good. Batman Arkham Origins Blackgate sucked. It's fine to be excited for a game, but overly sell a game because they're stilling pulling the "Makers of Metroid Prime" card all these years later despite that not actually meaning when all is said and done makes you seem like a child.
There was like one other 2D platformer on the Wii U at the time. No, people were people didn't get whatever dream game they projected onto their favorite developer. And now people are doing the same thing again. Time is a flat circle.
poet at play
Banned
Mark Pacini, director of all three Prime's, is directing ReCore.
It is a co-development between Armature and Comcept.
Inane and Armature have formerly collaborated on the first-person Maverick Hunter prototype (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olYCsHuqjOo).
funkystudent
Member
Something completely new with Nintendo reps overseeing it could be cool though.
A throwback to the N64 and Gamecube days when Nintendo had a bunch of original western developed games that where nothing like what Japan Nintendo was making but still had that Nintendo bar of quality.
Thats what I want from Retro and what I have wanted since they finished with Prime 3 and anything else in a already established Nintendo IP will be a real bummer for me.
So you don't like Nintendo games and prefer gritty, realistic western games.
That's fine.
I still don't see how you could possibly argue that Armature's single original game is in any way, shape, or form better than either of the two original games Retro's put out since those guys left.