Support NeoGAF

[Schlorgan]

Sheev spent years trying to overthrow the Republic and Jedi. And did. I can imagine him reshaping things to not remind him of that time as he absolutely loathed it. There's also that apart from Tatooine we saw different planets in the prequels. The new ending to ROTJ also showed Naboo and Coruscant as they were. In the originals we only saw Tatooine which looked the same, Dagobah, Endor, Bespin (which is PT-ish IMO) and Hoth.

And Tattooine and Naboo basically look the same from TPM to the added stuff at the end of ROTJ

Spoiler

(probably because those CG assets were already made and it was really easy to just slip them in as is and a lot easier than actually trying to show any change besides adding a Palpatine statue ;p).

 

[Neff]

A long time ago, in a 1950's diner far far away..

Right. That's one of the least creative and most immersion breaking scenes in all of SW.

Still not as bad as Harrison Ford practically looking at the camera and wheezing "TRASH COMPACTOR? HUH? GET IT? TRASH COMPACTOR?!" *wink*, or the leads from The Raid turning up all at once for no reason other than somebody thought it would be a good idea to make people think they were watching The Raid in the middle of Star Wars.

I think it is good in the way that a greatest hits album by a cover band can be good.

That's actually a very good analogy. And the cover band was surprisingly good in this case.

 

[Surfinn]

I was mocking your post. Using "edgy" as criticism is dumb.

Yes, I prefer the prequels to TFA, but my comment was not intended as a potshot. I think it is good in the way that a greatest hits album by a cover band can be good.

lol at your concept of me thinking my position on the relative merits of SW films would make me cool.

You want to engage in valid criticism? Essentially posting "TFA is worse than AToC and TPM" and leaving is a pretty shitty way to start a conversation.

I've seen no criticism thus far aside from the recycled "TFA is a greatest hits of the OT/remake of ANH" that comes form kneejerk/shallow surface comparisons between films.

There is so much TFA offers creatively that's not visual (I do recognize that the movie isn't super creative on a visual/conceptual level) and so many people missed it because they were too busy taking notes on the surface similarities between it at ANH so they can post a video that makes the films look identical when they don't even contain many of the same components, in terms of characterization and development.

Still not as bad as Harrison Ford practically looking at the camera and wheezing "TRASH COMPACTOR? HUH? GET IT? TRASH COMPACTOR?!" *wink*, or the leads from The Raid turning up all at once for no reason other than somebody thought it would be a good idea to make people think they were watching The Raid in the middle of Star Wars.

You.. really don't think the two examples I listed from AToC are as bad as this?Right, let's nitpick so we don't have to focus on many things TFA does right (ie characterization, developing the base for an intriguing story that will carry into two more films). Yes, there are a lot of references in this film (the one you're referring to was actually done well and was pretty funny, got a few chuckles out of the crowd when I saw it in theaters), but I guess it's cool to just point out that the film refers to events/dialogue from the OT and use it to label TFA as a rehash..

 

[MrMephistoX]

I feel like Clones would have benefited if it was actually Episode I with the events of 1 filled in by dialogue or something but the backlash against Phantom was so strong it colored a lot of people's perceptions.

 

[Count Dookkake]

You want to engage in valid criticism? Essentially posting "TFA is worse than AToC and TPM" and leaving is a pretty shitty way to start a conversation.

At least I didn't open with ad hominem.

Next.

 

[demosthenes]

That's because Padme was a freak.

:LOL

How have I never seen this before.

 

[Unit 33]

Attack of the Clones, because George and his yesmen didn't learn their lesson.

 

[Steel]

TPM was definitely worse.

 

[Transistor]

Attack of the Clones, easily

 

[dabig2]

TPM was a bad film. AotC was an aggressively bad one. There's really no comparison.

 

[Armaros]

At least I didn't open with ad hominem.

Next.

Only Pointing out logical fallacies to defend your previous argument is its own fallacy. It doesn't lead the argument anywhere.

It's a good way to try to run from one tho.

 

[Surfinn]

At least I didn't open with ad hominem.

Next.

Still haven't seen a single shred of real criticism from you. Or would you rather just focus on my response to your atrocious first post?

Only Pointing out logical fallacies to defend your previous argument is its own fallacy. It doesn't lead the argument anywhere.

It's a good way to try to run from one tho.

This. You can't engage in constructive conversation we're done here.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Only Pointing out logical fallacies to defend your previous argument is its own fallacy

If you say so.

EDIT:

It doesn't lead the argument anywhere.

It's a good way to try to run from one tho.

But I am not making an argument. I expressed my opinion on films. I have nothing to argue.

Don't let it bother you so. It's ok that your favorite is your favorite.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Attack of the Clones by far. Yes, Jar Jar is annoying, but he's not as omnipresent in the movie as Anakin, who is insufferable the entire time.

Plus, at least Phantom Menace has Duel of the Fates and Darth Maul's cool look to redeem it.

 

[Surfinn]

If you say so.

So no constructive conversation/criticism? Got it, ignored.

 

[DoctorFling]

I find Attack of the Clones funny-bad, but Phantom Menace is just hideously boring.

 

[Count Dookkake]

So no constructive criticism? Got it, ignored.

Thank the maker!

 

[Armaros]

If you say so.

EDIT:



But I am not making an argument. I expressed my opinion on films. I have nothing to argue.

Don't let it bother you so. It's ok that your favorite is your favorite.

Opinions can be criticized, and defending an opinion leads to an argument.

So you being defensive over it is you defending your opinion.

It being an opinion is not a defense against criticism or an argument.

 

[Neff]

Right, let's nitpick so we don't have to focus on many things TFA does right (ie characterization, developing the base for an intriguing story that will carry into two more films).

Well I was just talking about immersion breaking. I have far bigger problems with TFA, mostly pertaining to continuity and suspension of disbelief as a result of the film being absolutely terrified of branching out from the OT in any significant way, and sweeping its politics under the rug in shame rather than spending time to explain them.

On a lesser note, I felt the vehicle design was extremely poor compared to I-VI, and found the First Order to be an underwhelming, uninspired repeat of the Empire.

I really liked Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo Ren after he's unmasked, the first act (30-40mins) is fantastic, and it ends strongly, but overall it's lacking compared to Lucas' movies imo.

but I guess it's cool to just point out that the film refers to events/dialogue from the OT and use it to label TFA as a rehash..

It's a total rehash. I've spoken to very few people who can't or won't see that.

Rather than accuse people of attempting to be 'cool' for their views, why don't you just accept that people are different and will have views which conflict with your own?

 

[Count Dookkake]

Opinions can be criticized, and defending an opinion leads to an argument.

So you being defensive over it is you defending your opinion.

It being an opinion is not a defense against criticism or an argument.

You are free to quote me being defensive.

You are also free to quote me saying that my opinion should be free of criticism.

It is funny how you guys with a clear majority opinion are so sensitive in the face of a different opinion. Not sure what that says, but it is noted.

 

[Kev Kev]

To preface this post; I like all of the SW movies and I'm a bigger fan of the OT.

How much more can be said about how much certain individuals hate the PT for whatever reason?

It's like that No Man's Sky "players cannot see each other" topic that was closed because of the fact that it had simply become a worn out topic. It's over man. Just let it go.

Spoiler

TPM

 

[Armaros]

You are free to quote me being defensive.

You are also free to quote me saying that my opinion should be free of criticism.

It is funny how you guys with a clear majority opinion are so sensitive in the face of a different opinion. Not sure what that says, but it is noted.

Also noted you spend all your time argument about arguments over the actual opinion. Or what was the whole point about the logical fallacies?

Or 'it's just an opinion'

Now you switched to 'you all are the majority'. Nothing about the actual opinion put forward.

Funny that.

 

[MrCunningham]

Phantom Menace is a terrible movie, but it didn't put me to sleep like Attack of the Clones did.

 

[Macleoid]

Clones is easily the worst.

 

[daxy]

Phantom Menace's first 10 and last 30 minutes are okay, whereas Clones is trash through and through. The battle theme at the end of PM is amazing too.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Also noted you spend all your time argument about arguments over the actual opinion. Or what was the whole point about the logical fallacies?

Or 'it's just an opinion'

I only pointed out one logical fallacy (not plural), specifically that of the ad hominem, in response to a false assertion that my first post was somehow not valid.

For the cheap seats, "the whole point" was that if a poster wants to make demands of others, he should probably lead by example.

I have nothing else to say about this tangent, except that AotC is leagues better than TFA.

EDIT- you guys and your stealth edits...

Now you switched to 'you all are the majority'. Nothing about the actual opinion put forward.

Funny that.

Ok, what am I supposed to say about the "actual opinion put forward"?

To which "actual opinion" do you refer?

 

[Astral Dog]

Attack of the Clones and its NOT close

 

[Armaros]

I only pointed out one logical fallacy (not plural), specifically that of the ad hominem, in response to a false assertion that my first post was somehow not valid.

For the cheap seats, "the whole point" was that if a poster wants to make demands of others, he should probably lead by example.

I have nothing else to say about this tangent, except that AotC is leagues better than TFA.

You quoted one line out of 2 paragraphs and responded with 'ad hominem' as a response.

Talking about leading from example is amusing coming from how you have been arguing here.

 

[necrosis]

Well I was just talking about immersion breaking. I have far bigger problems with TFA, mostly pertaining to continuity and suspension of disbelief as a result of the film being absolutely terrified of branching out from the OT in any significant way, and sweeping its politics under the rug in shame rather than spending time to explain them.

On a lesser note, I felt the vehicle design was extremely poor compared to I-VI, and found the First Order to be an underwhelming, uninspired repeat of the Empire.

I really liked Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo Ren after he's unmasked, the first act (30-40mins) is fantastic, and it ends strongly, but overall it's lacking compared to Lucas' movies imo.

you are entitled to your opinion and everything (even if it makes me physically ill) but the continuity & immersion-breaking issues in the prequels are much worse than anything in tfa imo (the whole idea of midichlorians, for instance)

 

[Neff]

continuity & immersion-breaking issues in the prequels are much worse than anything in tfa imo (the whole idea of midichlorians, for instance)

I don't see what's so bad about them. They're simply a measuring device to gauge how strong an individual's Force ability or potential is. They don't represent the Force per se, but they're a biological by-product/agent of it.

I can buy the idea that they didn't feature in the OT, because they had no reason to, it's essentially Jedi DNA testing terminology, and the Jedi are all but gone by the time of Star Wars '77.

 

[Surfinn]

Well I was just talking about immersion breaking. I have far bigger problems with TFA, mostly pertaining to continuity and suspension of disbelief as a result of the film being absolutely terrified of branching out from the OT in any significant way, and sweeping its politics under the rug in shame rather than spending time to explain them.

On a lesser note, I felt the vehicle design was extremely poor compared to I-VI, and found the First Order to be an underwhelming, uninspired repeat of the Empire.

I really liked Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo Ren after he's unmasked, the first act (30-40mins) is fantastic, and it ends strongly, but overall it's lacking compared to Lucas' movies imo.



It's a total rehash. I've spoken to very few people who can't or won't see that.

Rather than accuse people of attempting to be 'cool' for their views, why don't you just accept that people are different and will have views which conflict with your own?

Thank you for providing some genuine criticism. I felt like the opening shot really established the FO as a real threat and didn't feel like they really let up throughout the film. Although the speech from Gleeson was pretty over the top (I'm pretty used to it by now as I've seen the movie multiple times), the Starkiller scene was one of the best in SW, (I know many won't agree with this). The way it's edited, beautifully scored, cinematography of the beams/Kylo's ship/planets exploding was well done. And the way that scene is used as character development is brilliant too. Finn immediately jumps back into the fight as he's reminded of when he left the FO, and more importantly, why. All of this is accomplished without a single word, which I feel like is a fantastic achievement. This is all creative work that cannot be dismissed away as a rehash, once you get past the surface comparisons to the Death Star. There's so much more this film has to offer than a repeat of the OT but so many won't give it another chance.

How many times have you seen it? I'd recommend rewatching if only once or twice. At a first glance it appears to be a remake but if you really pay attention to the characters on screen you'll find there's a lot of originality to their development and interactions with each other.

It is not a rehash.

 

[TheMagician]

The most offensive thing about AotC is that despite all the feedback about TPM, Lucas still went ahead and made a film which was just as worse.

The biggest and worse thing is by far Anakin Skywalker. He is written so poorly it beggars belief. If you want to see how Anakin should be then go head and watch the 3D Clone Wars animation.

From the very start of the movie he's written as a bad apple, arguing with Obi Wan constantly, being creepy around Padme and killing women & children. It was so bad that they only added that scene of Anakin and Obi Wan laughing in the lift up to Padme's apartment after re-shoots when someone pointed out to George that all they did was hate each other throughout the entire movie.

The tragedy of Anakin Skywalker should have been that he was a great, kind & loving Jedi who succumbed to the dark side of the force. Not someone who you were like 'well, we all saw it coming right from the start tbf!'.

They absolutely nail him in Clone Wars and he's my favourite character in the whole series. So dissapointing that Lucas was unable to replicate it on the big screen.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Attack of the Clones and its NOT close

Agreed, I can't take anyone seriously who thinks otherwise.

 

[Gunslinger]

The phantom menace minus jar jar wasn't a bad movie for kids and sw fans. As a 12 year old watching it back then I remember enjoying it. And having Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor in it helped a lot. But AoC is just a mess of a movie. Count dooku wasn't as intimidating as darth maul. Anakin and Padme scenes sucked. The CGI looked really bad. It was a terrible movie.

 

[Neff]

How many times have you seen it? I'd recommend rewatching if only once or twice.

About ten times. I also have the Blu Ray. My mind is very made up.

It's a solid film, but it lacks that magic I got from I-VI. Lucas' universe is one I can spend endless amounts of time in. Abrams' interpretation of that universe feels pleasantly familiar at best, derivative, conservative, and overly self-conscious at worst.

That said, I'm still looking forward to VIII. I'll probably avoid Rogue One since that movie looks like it's completely gone off the deep end as far as resembling Star Wars goes.

The most offensive thing about AotC is that despite all the feedback about TPM, Lucas still went ahead and made a film which was just as worse.

Still the best piece of evidence that he wasn't just out to sell toys. He made the movies he wanted to make rather than customising them for expectations and merchandising potential.

 

[Surfinn]

About ten times. I also have the Blu Ray. My mind is very made up.

It's a solid film, but it lacks that magic I got from I-VI. Lucas' universe is one I can spend endless amounts of time in. Abrams' interpretation of that universe feels pleasantly familiar at best, derivative, conservative, and overly self-conscious at worst.

That said, I'm still looking forward to VIII. I'll probably avoid Rogue One since that movie looks like it's completely gone off the deep end as far as resembling Star Wars goes.

I'd say if you've already seen TFA that many times, you're being a little misleading about the way you feel about it.I feel like the magic has been gone for years until EP7 (which I've also seen over ten times) came along (even with its flaws), as the PT sucked it all away. It's not about who's universe it is, clearly, as GL has proven he's willing to make films without the care and creative inspiration of the originals (OT). So I don't really think it's even worth bringing up if it's his vision or not, in all honesty. SW has always been successful as a collaboration, not just one man's vision or creation. And it damn shows with the PT.

But thank you for the discussion and we can agree to disagree. I'm also excited for EP8. I think we'll see a lot more overall creativity in comparison to EP7.

 

[necrosis]

I don't see what's so bad about them. They're simply a measuring device to gauge how strong an individual's Force ability or potential is. They don't represent the Force per se, but they're a biological by-product/agent of it.

I can buy the idea that they didn't feature in the OT, because they had no reason to, it's essentially Jedi DNA testing terminology, and the Jedi are all but gone by the time of Star Wars '77.

it contradicts how the force is explained by obi-wan in the original star wars, and the only way lucas was able to get around this was by throwing in a line that says something like "life would not exist without midichlorians"

and even then their inclusion in the one film that mentions them is completely unnecessary

 

[Ushojax]

I don't see what's so bad about them. They're simply a measuring device to gauge how strong an individual's Force ability or potential is.

That's why they're so dumb, the OT showed us that it's possible to sense the Force in others so why would you need a blood test? Would Qui-Gon have refused to train Anakin if his midichlorian count had only been 12000 instead of 20000? Trying to deconstruct the Force in such an asinine way was totally unnecessary, it adds nothing to the story. Qui-Gon should have wanted to train Anakin because he demonstrated great courage/kindness/strength in the Force, not because of some readout on a screen.

During his 20 year hiatus from directing George lost sight of how to tell a story in the cinema, his prequels were full of exposition that strangled the life out of scenes. "Show don't tell" is a rule that he either forgot or never really understood in the first place.

 

[Neff]

So I don't really think it's even worth bringing up if it's his vision or not, in all honesty. SW has always been successful as a collaboration, not just one man's vision or creation.

This is true, but bear in mind that he had absolute, total control and final say over every creative decision over all five of his Star Wars movies after Star Wars '77. They've always represented his vision more than any one individual, no matter how many revisionist, baseless theories about Kasdan, Kurtz or Kershner being the secret unsung talent behind their respective works. I will give Marcia Lucas a big hand, though. The prequels could definitely have benefited from her contribution, unlikely as it was.

If anything, subsequent views of TFA actually grew on me. I walked out of the theater feeling conflicted, but have warmed to home viewings since, even though I still think it's sub-par as a Star Wars film. My viewings of Lucas' Star Wars movies over the last 35 years always, without condition, conjure up feelings of elation and awe.

TFA can't do that.

it contradicts how the force is explained by obi-wan in the original star wars

Not really. You can view Midi-chlorians as stuff Obi-Wan simply left out when he was telling Luke about the Force, but they don't actually contradict anything he says. The Force is still an energy field in the Prequels, just as Obi-Wan describes, and it's interacted in with the same way. It's just that those who are Force-sensitive have these little microscopic critters in their blood, channelling that energy.

That's why they're so dumb, the OT showed us that it's possible to sense the Force in others so why would you need a blood test?

Well the Jedi are really into the Force, so it doesn't surprise me that they'd have some method of measuring it, or understanding it better than others. My take is that Qui-Gon realised Anakin's Force ability was abnormally powerful and wanted to know if there was something 'wrong' with him (which of course there was). I think that's basically the only reason for their existence in TPM, and possibly also promoting the idea that we interact with the Force at a biological level rather than a wishy-washy 'magical' one.

 

[Surfinn]

This is true, but bear in mind that he had absolute, total control and final say over every creative decision over all five of his Star Wars movies after Star Wars '77. They've always represented his vision more than any one individual, no matter how many revisionist, baseless theories about Kasdan, Kurtz or Kershner being the secret unsung talent behind their respective works. I will give Marcia Lucas a big hand, though. The prequels could definitely have benefited from her contribution, unlikely as it was.

If anything, subsequent views of TFA actually grew on me. I walked out of the theater feeling conflicted, but have warmed to home viewings since, even though I still think it's sub-par as a Star Wars film. My viewings of Lucas' Star Wars movies over the last 35 years always, without condition, conjure up feelings of elation and awe.

TFA can't do that.



Not really. You can view Midi-chlorians as stuff Obi-Wan simply left out when he was telling Luke about the Force, but they don't actually contradict anything he says. The Force is still an energy field in the Prequels, just as Obi-Wan describes, and it's interacted in with the same way. It's just that those who are Force-sensitive have these little microscopic critters in their blood, channelling that energy.



Well the Jedi are really into the Force, so it doesn't surprise me that they'd have some method of measuring it, or understanding it better than others. My take is that Qui-Gon realised Anakin's Force ability was abnormally powerful and wanted to know if there was something 'wrong' with him (which of course there was). I think that's basically the only reason for their existence in TPM, and possibly also promoting the idea that we interact with the Force at a biological level rather than a wishy-washy 'magical' one.

Who wrote the father reveal scene? X-Wing scene? Yoda's dialogue? Because those are some of the most defining moments in ESB, which is considered as the best SW film of all time. I'm genuinely asking because I thought Kasdan was largely responsible for writing that stuff.

I felt identically to the way you did, walking out of the theater. Didn't like it very much. Repeat viewings made me love it (along with reading up about some subtle things I missed).

 

[Neff]

Who wrote the father reveal scene? X-Wing scene? Yoda's dialogue? Because those are some of the most defining moments in ESB, which is considered as the best SW film of all time. I'm genuinely asking because I thought Kasdan was largely responsible for writing that stuff.

Lucas' story, Kasdan's script. Leigh Brackett wrote the first script for ESB before she died, and even though it was mostly discarded, some elements of it remain in Kasdan's version, and Lucas ensured she got a credit.

 

[Surfinn]

Lucas' story, Kasdan's script. Leigh Brackett wrote the first script for ESB before she died, and even though it was mostly discarded, some elements of it remain in Kasdan's version, and Lucas ensured she got a credit.

Yeah I'd say Kasdan deserves just as much credit, then (I remember him being the writer, so that's why I was asking).

That's the best SW has to offer, and the vast majority has to do with the writing, direction and scoring.. right? That's a pretty damn hard thing to bring to life in such an effective way. Of what did Lucas create in terms of what's on screen during the X-Wing scene?

 

[Robot Pants]

Attack of the Clones.
Phantom Menace had Duel of the Fates and Darth Maul

 

[Aselith]

Clones is the bottom of the barrel.

No. actually, its the sewage that has leaked outside the barrel and is now poisoning the water supply and giving you Cholera.

TPM at least has Darth Maul and decent effects that hold up to this day unlike the PS2 games that are AotC AND RotS.

But Clones has the Jango/Obi fight and the asteroid fight which were both cool as well and aren't sullied by a lame end.

Clones is better for sure

 

[mrkgoo]

Attack of the clones by a long margin. I think phantom menace is at least watchable.

"I wish I could wish away my feelings... But I can't."

 

[iPaul93]

Attack of the clones,definitely.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I loved the Senate scenes. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[spekkeh]

About ten times. I also have the Blu Ray. My mind is very made up.

It's a solid film, but it lacks that magic I got from I-VI. Lucas' universe is one I can spend endless amounts of time in. Abrams' interpretation of that universe feels pleasantly familiar at best, derivative, conservative, and overly self-conscious at worst.

I rewatched TFA again just yesterday (<3 Netflix <3), and, I think you're crazy, but I also see your point. For me TFA brought the overall quip filled derring-do with major Star Wars themes back, that were lost in the prequels. And it looked absolutely gorgeous, and suitably worn-in, whereas TPM especially had a bad plastic sheen over everything. TFA felt like proper Star Wars, whereas the prequels were something else entirely, just happened to be in generally the same universe.

But you're right that the story is just trash, even worse than I remembered. It's simply a greatest hits album of the OT that's thick with pandering and doesn't do anything new. The prequels at least had a story to tell. Well AotC and RotJ that is. TPM is just as inconsequential as TFA.

 

[necrosis]

Not really. You can view Midi-chlorians as stuff Obi-Wan simply left out when he was telling Luke about the Force, but they don't actually contradict anything he says. The Force is still an energy field in the Prequels, just as Obi-Wan describes, and it's interacted in with the same way. It's just that those who are Force-sensitive have these little microscopic critters in their blood, channelling that energy.

obi-wan says that jedi can directly feel the force flowing through them, while in tpm it is said that jedi only know of the existence of the force due to midichlorians

 

[Jorok Goldblade]

I'd add Christopher Lee and the unintentional comedy of action-Yoda to Clones' pros.