You are definitely right, I remember the same stuff happening on NeoGAF back then and it was just as much bullshit as it is now
Wii U: Does it really matter if PS4 and Xbox 720 are more powerful?
- Thread starter marc^o^
- Start date
You are definitely right, I remember the same stuff happening on NeoGAF back then and it was just as much bullshit as it is now
The only thing I was claiming as fact was that diminishing turns exist.
But since you clearly don't understand what diminishing returns are or how they work based on your posts, even after I've made several very detailed posts explaining the concept in as many ways as I possibly can, I'm not even going to bother with you.
When has the average person EVER understood and appreciated the advances in graphics? They dont care about the details. But they can still see the difference. Especially in hind-sight. Thats the thing here - once you get used to a certain quality of graphics, previous generations aren't nearly as impressive as they used to seem. Perhaps it'll be us more 'core' gamers that pick up on the advancements quicker than the general public, but they'll still get onboard at some point.
I mean, I used to work at Circuit City a long while back when HDTV's were just starting to take off. We were told to push these and try and impress customers with the 720p sets(there were some 1080p at the time, but they were very expensive and you'd really only push those on people who seemed serious about having top-quality available), but it was hard at first. Many people didn't quite appreciate the difference from SDTV to HDTV. Most would say it looked better, 'but not that much better'. I bet if you found those same people today and asked them what they think of SDTV's, they'd tell you it looked bad and outdated.
This is usually how it works. Even with me, I remember HDDVD's/Blu-Rays didn't look all that impressive at first. Good, but nothing special. It took me owning a BluRay player for a little while to really see how inferior DVD's are.
The leap will still be there. It may be a tad smaller a leap than from last generation to this, but it'll still be big. And it will become the standard, and it will likely make the Wii U look fairly outdated at the same time.
rohlfinator
Member
Exactly, this is something that the "gameplay over graphics" people (who I largely agree with) keep missing. It's funny that the article noted Fez and Journey, because they are great examples of games that would not have been at all feasible on last-gen hardware. Fez may have been technically possible, but not by a few (relatively) amateur indies.
Indie developers can now make nice-looking games with creative gameplay without needing a super-genius like John Carmack building their engines. That's a direct benefit of having powerful hardware that gives them space to create, instead of constantly fighting against hardware limitations.
flyinpiranha
Member
This has been a tech only argument. I'm aware the term can be used for multiple applications but not in this case. Personal taste has nothing to do with technology DR within the context of this argument.
Zombie James
Banned
It matters because developers and publishers will move on from 360/PS3-level hardware to develop bigger and better things that can't be done on the Wii U, and third-party support on the system will suffer as a result.
Speaking of which, I haven't read ANYTHING about how Wii U games sound on the GamePad speakers. And I just realized developpers could use it to enhance the spatial sound experience, just like they use the GamePad second screen. Sound quality will be 10 times better than in the wiimote. Should be very cool in some games!
The biggest issue I have with all of your DR claims is that we have no idea how much better games will evolve or look.
You're basing your assumptions over something that hasn't happened yet. Let's wait 5 years, and if you still think Joe Shmoe wouldn't notice the difference between a next gen game and Uncharted3/Gears3/etc. then you'll have a point. Until then, it's all baseless assumptions and those usually should be ignored.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Yes, I agree with this. Some developers will always push for the best that can be squeezed out of any HW I think, but the point is to bring in more creative minds which might not have either time or maybe the equivalent technical expertise, but which can deliver better and better games thanks to better and better tools and middleware.
Is Unity the most efficient engine of all time? I do not think it is their goal to be it either, but look at how many games it is helping to come to life.
Not only that. The goal (CGI movies) will shift as well.
When the PS2 was announced, everybody looked at Toy story.
With today's CGI technology Avatar, toy story looks like shit.
I'm still waiting for ingame graphics to actually look as good as 'The spirits within'.
With current and maybe even next-gen graphics, character hair still looks like shit.
There sooo much room for improvement.
I'll be trying it out next monday, I'll see if I can make anything out, but I doubt it'll be easy
I can't believe noone has mentionned this feature already. It can be totally awesome if used correctly! As GamePad can offer an independant, alternate vision of an action scene, it makes total sense to support it with its own sound channel. It could add a lot of atmosphere, and to the gaming experience as a wholeI'll be trying it out next monday, I'll see if I can make anything out, but I doubt it'll be easy
In 2015, if you're porting your PS4/Xbox3 game to WiiU, you may as well also port it to PS3/360.
Next year, we'll have acheived South Park-like graphics!
Does it have a headphone socket? If the sound quality is good, and I can listen to the game audio by plugging headphones into the controller, that'd be a fantastic
Yes it does.
I think wiiU will help Sony and MS eke out ps3/360 for longer with mainstream titles.
Could that be part of their strategy? Show NOW that the Wii U is barely going to be more powerful than the 360/PS3 so that maybe those companies will rethink how quickly they need to bring in their new consoles?
Just hypothesizing. I'm probably wrong.
Boss Man
Member
It's worth mentioning that the fact of diminishing returns doesn't necessarily translate into the graphical improvements from generation to generation. What it means is that you need bigger and bigger advances in power to produce the same graphical leaps. Thankfully, technology itself is still growing exponentially.
Diminishing returns means that, for example:
PS1 -> PS2 (10xPS1) -> PS3 (1000xPS1)
May represent the same level of graphical progress despite requiring bigger improvements in hardware to obtain it- but thankfully that's exactly what is happening.
However, diminishing returns is often used to mean that "I dunno...this gen looked pretty impressive I can't imagine the same kind of jump happening next gen." which is just always wrong.
Diminishing returns means that, for example:
PS1 -> PS2 (10xPS1) -> PS3 (1000xPS1)
May represent the same level of graphical progress despite requiring bigger improvements in hardware to obtain it- but thankfully that's exactly what is happening.
However, diminishing returns is often used to mean that "I dunno...this gen looked pretty impressive I can't imagine the same kind of jump happening next gen." which is just always wrong.
LittleJohnny
Banned
Ok KevinCow, how about we do an apples to apples comparison instead of mixing genres, developers and talent?
Here:
PS1 vs Dreamcast vs PS2 vs 360
SoulBlade
Soul Calibur
Sould Calibur 3
Sould Calibur 5
All upgrades look quite impressive, I don't see anything diminishing about the current Soul Calibur, in fact one could argue that the latest Soul Calibur vs the PS2 version is a greater leap then Soulblade to Dreamcast, and we all thought that leap was amazing.
Here:
PS1 vs Dreamcast vs PS2 vs 360
All upgrades look quite impressive, I don't see anything diminishing about the current Soul Calibur, in fact one could argue that the latest Soul Calibur vs the PS2 version is a greater leap then Soulblade to Dreamcast, and we all thought that leap was amazing.
you really don't understand what my point is, do you
hint: developers and genres don't matter
like, at all
Agent Unknown
Member
Mario Galaxy looked incredible for a 480p game, imagine how much better games could look on Wii U with the right dev?
And as has been posted many times, Gearbox has said on at least two occoasions that Aliens Colonial Marines for Wii U will be the "best looking version" of the game and is "a perfect fit" due to the system's hardware:
http://kotaku.com/5913484/the-wii-u...rsion-of-aliens-colonial-marines-says-gearbox
From a Gamespot video interview with Randy Pitchford, starts at 7:24 (thanks to a thread by smellycat):
http://www.gamespot.com/aliens-colon...hford-6377485/
These guys are actual game developers and to put it mildly, aren't worried about the system's hardware so why should I be?
And as has been posted many times, Gearbox has said on at least two occoasions that Aliens Colonial Marines for Wii U will be the "best looking version" of the game and is "a perfect fit" due to the system's hardware:
http://kotaku.com/5913484/the-wii-u...rsion-of-aliens-colonial-marines-says-gearbox
From a Gamespot video interview with Randy Pitchford, starts at 7:24 (thanks to a thread by smellycat):
http://www.gamespot.com/aliens-colon...hford-6377485/
These guys are actual game developers and to put it mildly, aren't worried about the system's hardware so why should I be?
This isn't even close to being true.
Are you saying it's ok to compare a fighting game from the 32-bit gen to an open world game from last gen?
I don't see how they don't matter.
Edit:
Yeah, they aren't worried now because the Wii-U fits within the industry's current standards. Let's see how positive they are when they are trying to cram a high end PC/720/PS4 game onto the Wii-U.
AppleBlade
Member
There is much more to motivation of making a port besides just the capabilities of the hardware (like the number of system owners who will pay full price for a game). That's like saying if you're going to make a game for Wii, you might as well make it for the original Xbox as well. Simply put in 2015, the vast majority of WiiU owners will be ok paying full price for a game, and you are likely not going to find that same situation with 360/PS3 owners at point in time.
shinobi602
Member
Look, I'm getting a Wii U. I can't wait to get one actually. But saying it is the best version out of current gen consoles isn't saying much.
soulassssns
Banned
no it does not.
I only get Nintendo games for the 1st party games anyway.
I only get Nintendo games for the 1st party games anyway.
soulassssns
Banned
Exercise for people who think it doesn't
Play a game on PS2/Wii/Gamecube in 480p
Play a game on PS3/X360 in non native 720p 20-25 fps frame rare
Play a game on powerfull PC in 1080p in 60 fps
and then tell me power doesn't matter for enjoyment of gaming
I do that all the time and it doesn't matter
After having all three systems and spending plenty of time with each, I can honestly say that "immersiveness" is not really increased with the HD systems. Its true that the settings are much prettier and there is more shit going on, but it really depends on the game and the talent of the developer. For example, I finally started to play Xenoblade and that game sucked me into its world hardcore. I am totally smitten with it despite the jaggy blurry mess it sometimes is on my HD TV. It doesnt matter because that world is so epic and beautiful.
I say this having recently played Uncharted 3. For me, anyway, it just doesnt matter how powerful the system actually is. To see Nintendos beloved properties in full HD and see that artwork as it was intended to be seen is worth the price of admission.
I say this having recently played Uncharted 3. For me, anyway, it just doesnt matter how powerful the system actually is. To see Nintendos beloved properties in full HD and see that artwork as it was intended to be seen is worth the price of admission.
I don't think anyone understands your point. Or at least why you continue to argue something subjective is actually objective.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
The meltdown of KevinCow
Why are people still under this assumption that PS4/Xbox 720 are going to be a massive leap forward? To my knowledge there hasn't been one actual, concrete piece of evidence to support this theory at all.
Sony and Microsoft kept going at each other in the hardware arms race while Nintendo bowed out to do their own thing with the Wii. PS3 was bleeding edge when it was released but cost Sony dearly for this that they bled their entire profits from PS1+PS2 generation dry. Anyone honestly speculating that they're going to repeat that same tactic with the PS4 is insane, especially considering how badly the Vita is tanking right now. And Microsoft? If this year's E3 conference didn't make you realize this here's the reality: They don't give a fuck about video games anymore. It's all about apps and services. Video games and the Xbox to them was just the trojan horse into your living room and now that they're in they want to sell you shit on their platform with Xbox Live being the huge paywall in front of Netflix, Hulu, etc etc. They couldn't get PC users to hop on board with Internet Explorer or Bing but guess what, on the Xbox platform they don't have competition in that space because they control it. I would be surprised if Microsoft went far ahead with the 720 because there's very little they'd gain by being the only superpower in the next generation.
TLDR version: People have their heads in the clouds regarding how far next gen is going to leap for no reason and most likely we'll have a PS2-GCN-XBX like generation.
Sony and Microsoft kept going at each other in the hardware arms race while Nintendo bowed out to do their own thing with the Wii. PS3 was bleeding edge when it was released but cost Sony dearly for this that they bled their entire profits from PS1+PS2 generation dry. Anyone honestly speculating that they're going to repeat that same tactic with the PS4 is insane, especially considering how badly the Vita is tanking right now. And Microsoft? If this year's E3 conference didn't make you realize this here's the reality: They don't give a fuck about video games anymore. It's all about apps and services. Video games and the Xbox to them was just the trojan horse into your living room and now that they're in they want to sell you shit on their platform with Xbox Live being the huge paywall in front of Netflix, Hulu, etc etc. They couldn't get PC users to hop on board with Internet Explorer or Bing but guess what, on the Xbox platform they don't have competition in that space because they control it. I would be surprised if Microsoft went far ahead with the 720 because there's very little they'd gain by being the only superpower in the next generation.
TLDR version: People have their heads in the clouds regarding how far next gen is going to leap for no reason and most likely we'll have a PS2-GCN-XBX like generation.
so in the beginning you say graphics make no difference and then end by saying graphics will make such a difference.........just playing
LittleJohnny
Banned
Umm, not sure what the problem with that comparison is. PS1 to Dreamcast was the first leap from one generation to the next, then I compared PS2's Soul Calibur 3 to PS3s Soul Calibur 5 and I actually see a bigger leap in Soul Calibur 5.
If fact the best way would be to compare Soul Calibur Dreamcast to Soul Calibur 360, first console of last gen vs first console of this gen.
So here you go, PlayStation vs Dreamcast vs 360, now that's the most fair comparison:
WHOA!!! The latter is the biggest leap EVAARR
shinobi602
Member
Really? Since you're saying HD (basically extra power) doesn't matter here, are you suggesting a game such as Bioshock, for example, would be just as immersive on a PS2? Or even a Wii? Honestly now....
I agree. That's exactly the right comparison. And it's exactly why Wii's 3rd party support was so weak.
Agent Unknown
Member
Actually it is saying a lot because its info from a dev clearly saying it's more powerful than current gen machines.
Not that it will work but I'll repost the last bits:
the point, as has been stated many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, fucking times:
diminishing returns are a thing that fucking exists
this is an objective fact
this is an observable fact
my subjective opinion on what this means for next-gen and the future of gaming is separate from the fact that diminishing returns are an objective, observable fact
Buddha Beam
Banned
I do. Star Wars 1313 far and away the most graphically raved about game at E3 looked nice but didn't strike me as much better than other games we've already seen.
Sony did prove that the PS2 still had life for a couple years into this generation. If the new consoles dont release til late 2013 or early 2014, its not completely out of the question that there could be some porting from Wii U to 360/PS3 in 2015. I dont think Nintendo is suddenly going to hit it out of the park with 3rd party developers with the Wii U, so it'd be a good way for a developer to make extra sales on a game that was initially just primed to be a Wii U title.
Maybe you're right, but I dont think its impossible for it to happen.
People seem to be expecting watchdog, star wars 1313, unreal 4 as the barometer for next gen and possibly the luminous engine in real time. I don't see that as out of the realm of possibilities.
We're 99% sure that the 56 paged leaked document from Microsoft is legit and rumors are it was upgraded from that. Sony has came out publicly saying they won't release until a noticeable and significant upgrade can be achieved.
I think expectations are generally pretty realistic around here. Not all, but most. Especially compared to this time going into the 360/ps3 gen where threads were abound of people saying final fantasy 10 CG would be the norm and we'd be on the doorsteps of Pixar.
so in the beginning you say graphics make no difference and then end by saying graphics will make such a difference.........just playing
It will make artwork stand out more.
Ive come around on the whole HD thing finally after getting used to the look, but I still enjoy lots of standard definition games. Seeing stuff like Pikmin and Mario Galaxy in HD and seeing those gorgeous artstyles unfettered by jagginess and bluriness will be very nice. Vanillaware stuff will look incredible. But I was saying that graphical prowess is nothing without good ideas behind it.
Of course it matters. But at the end of the day Wii-U will still have great games although probably be still the worst console of the three but the best to own if you go PC + another console for the exclusives.
From many gamers point of view price might be more important than graphics or third parties. There are many things that matter, and some of them matter more or less to different people including graphics.
From many gamers point of view price might be more important than graphics or third parties. There are many things that matter, and some of them matter more or less to different people including graphics.
I am sorry it was on the WMD forum, but I will see if I find the post.
EDIT, right out the mouth of the boss: