shinobi602
Member
The fact that he even has to clarify that it is more powerful than the 360/PS3 is worrying. It should be by default.
Wii U: Does it really matter if PS4 and Xbox 720 are more powerful?
- Thread starter marc^o^
- Start date
The fact that he even has to clarify that it is more powerful than the 360/PS3 is worrying. It should be by default.
AppleBlade
Member
Graphics and technical sophistication are two different things. I anticipate that the Wii will be a tad more powerful then the 360 and PS3 and significantly less powerful then the successor's to those system yet to say that is lacking in graphics is putting the cart before the horse. I mean a 1080p hand-drawn beautifully animated game on the WiiU could easily look better than many 720/PS4 games and even in the realm of traditional 3D games, I am sure Nintendo's best 1st party efforts will easily equal or exceed anything on those other system.
KittyKittyBangBang
Member
It will when all the 3rd party stuff is developed for the PS4/Xbox 720 and is dumbed down for the WiiU.
As always, the Nintendo console is for first party games and little else
As always, the Nintendo console is for first party games and little else
AppleBlade
Member
The PS2 had an enormous installed base and the PS3 stumbled out the gate and even with all that going for it, the vast majority of Wii games were still not being ported to the PS2. Besides sports games, Call of Duty, and maybe a niche title here or there I can not envision an environment where PS3/360/WiiU multi plats being developed in the years after the release of the PS3/720. That's just way too many platforms to support.
Agent Unknown
Member
Who was talking about about "cramming" a PC/720/PS4 game on to the Wii U? The context of the thread is "does it matter" if the former will be more powerful? We still need more concrete info on how powerful it really is or what kind of ports it can handle. The positive comments from Gearbox may indicate it can handle some decent ports. But we'll have to see. As long as I get great first party content, third party support that's better than Wii and the console can attract lots of creative smaller/indie devs I'll be happy.
In the end probably not. The second post had it right. Whether the thing sells 30 million or 100 million, you're probably going to primarily play Nintendo games on the thing with maybe a couple of third party games here and there. Nintendo's going to make a tidy profit on each unit sold like they have since the dawn of time so it's irrelevant arguing about this.
Boss Man
Member
Diminishing returns is an objective fact but the way you're approaching it is overly simplistic.
Console generations do not represent anything objective- at most they represent time and technological advancement. Consider storage:
Let's consider computers in the same time periods as console generations.
PS1 era you might have a PC with 512MB RAM.
PS2 era you might have a PC with 2GB RAM.
Now, this 1.5GB difference was a huge leap.
PS2 era you might have a PC with 2GB RAM.
Let's say you upgrade to 3.5GB RAM.
Now, this 1.5GB difference shows diminishing returns.
PS2 era you might have a PC with 2GB RAM.
PS3 era you might have a PC with 8GB RAM.
Now, this 4GB difference was a huge leap.
PS3 era you might have a PC with 8GB RAM.
Let's say you upgrade to 12GB RAM.
Now, this 4GB difference shows diminishing returns.
Diminishing returns is a real thing, but it doesn't apply to the graphical improvements over console generations. It applies to the technological advances required to maintain them- which are ever (faster and faster) increasing. Technology itself, too, is ever (faster and faster) advancing. The end result is steady growth.
walking fiend
Member
I just played Uncharte [3] for the first time; the game sure looks good as hell!! I liek it. 
But at the same time, I think a lot of comprises has been made; for example compared to Prince of Persia, the areas and their interactivity look confined.
But at the same time, I think a lot of comprises has been made; for example compared to Prince of Persia, the areas and their interactivity look confined.
Star Wars 1313 is running off of Unreal 3. Watch Dogs is coming out for PS3 and 360. If those games are next gen then you don't need to buy a new system to play them.
Let me know when Unreal 4 gets a playable demo and that can actually be a good topic of discussion on generational differences.
Why do some Nintendo fans work so hard to convince people that there won't be a noticeable leap next gen? Massive is subjective, I can think something is massive where you will downplay how large the leap is.
The 360 was also bleeding edge at the beginning of this generation but it didn't lose nearly as much money. Neither did the PS1 or PS2. You don't need to lose billions and billions to offer a good leap. The great thing about this gen being so long is that they can offer a good leap in performance next gen without breaking the bank like they did this gen.
If MS and Sony want to make set-top boxes/multi-media game machines, they will need power if they want to do both simultaneously. If they want these boxes to last 10 years, they will need power. If they want 3rd party support, they will need power.
All your doing with this ignorant paragraph of absolute crap is focusing, and exaggerating, anything negative from E3 or the possibilities for next gen systems. I swear people like you are so disconnected from reality when it comes to this industry that you really shouldn't even bother commenting on it.
Yup, proof right here that you're clueless. How can you talk about others having their heads in the clouds and next claim that it'll be a PS2-GCN-xbox like generation?
How do you not understand that it would be incredibly stupid for MS and Sony to spend billions launching a console that is marginally more powerful than what they have out already? Do you not see how illogical this all sounds? No of course you don't because you have your head up a company's ass.
Actually it is saying a lot because its info from a dev clearly saying it's more powerful than current gen machines.
Not that it will work but I'll repost the last bits:
Saying that your console is more powerful than the current ones out isn't anything anything since that's to be expected.
I don't think anyone is denying that DR is a reality. I think people are questioning how or why you are assuming that DR will effect next gen like you claim.
Heavily modified unreal engine 3. Need I remind you that games like bioshock ran on modified unreal engine 2?
Those games will not look like that on 360, come on champ, get real.
djplaeskool
Member
Just buy everything and call it a day.
Probably said a million times, but we really won't know if its a deal breaker until we see the PS4/next Xbox in action.
If the Wii U can get similar games but not as flashy won't really be a deal breaker.
Or if the Wii U version is the lead-off SKU.
If, they outclass it like this gen, well it shall be interesting
If the Wii U can get similar games but not as flashy won't really be a deal breaker.
Or if the Wii U version is the lead-off SKU.
If, they outclass it like this gen, well it shall be interesting
Ok, I can see what you're saying. Fair enough. I think either way, the point is that we're still seeing big leaps and there's no reason to expect that to stop right here and now. There's still too far to go for these 'diminishing returns' to really start having a big impact, especially with technology still advancing very quickly.
I saw lots of games at their E3 conference. That they're also trying to do more with the additional entertainment capabilities doesn't mean that they dont care about games anymore.
There's still plenty of reason to expect that Sony and Microsoft will want to put out something impressive. Biggest one being that its kind of like a game of chicken for the two companies. If one of them backs out of the arms race, they're going to lose out on a lot of the 'core' audience, leaving the other to dominate that market and its not like that alleviates any pressure of competition cuz then they've got to compete with Nintendo. Perhaps it could be a masterstroke as the more powerful, expensive machine might not catch on as well as developers look more towards the less powerful consoles for multiplatform games, but I dont think its a risk that either company would be willing to take. Nintendo pulled it off cuz they're Nintendo and they can do whatever they want. Microsoft and Sony have to actually pull this shit off the hard way.
KittyKittyBangBang
Member
ALWAYS the correct answer
Agent Unknown
Member
If forum peeps and journalists are constantly speculating and asking about it why wouldn't he respond when questioned on the subject? He said it's "very powerful, moreso than 360/PS3," sounds like a positive to me.
Boss Man
Member
They'll outclass it again, but there won't be the additional burden of being an SD device in an HD era. I think Nintendo underestimated how quickly that would happen.
It will probably mean about the same thing for ports and stuff, but I don't think it will be quite as bad visually. Games won't be painful to look at, they just won't look as cool.
As a matter of fact, while we're on this subject (and I'm even arguing against it), I think games like Mario might actually be getting close to that point where they look exactly like we want them to. I think Nintendo's approach is smart, I just wish they'd make their first few buckets of money and then relax so that it doesn't persuade the others to go that route.
shinobi602
Member
*sigh*
Just because SW is UE3 means nothing. First it's heavily modified, and second, just because PS3/360 can run Unreal 3 does not mean it will look anywhere like that. Smartphones can run Unreal 3, it doesn't mean they can run Gears of War 3.
And if you think that Watch Dogs will anywhere near as good as the demo on 360/PS3, you're in for a rude awakening.
Let's hope it is, since it looked the exact same in the footage we saw.
Dlacy13g
Member
I suppose that question is truly only answered by what we get with the PS4 and Xbox720. I mean if Sony and MS only slightly push the new hardware boundaries and its just more polygons at the end of the day then I would say no it really doesn't matter. IF however; they do push the boundaries of not only the tech/polygons but its interaction/gameplay mechanics in the gaming world and social crossovers along with expanded media capabilities... well clearly the answer is yes, it will matter.
But its all a moot point at the moment isn't it? Console wise we have the xbox 360, PS3, Wii and the WiiU. I think the bigger question to ask, does the WiiU matter at all right now in the current gen?
But its all a moot point at the moment isn't it? Console wise we have the xbox 360, PS3, Wii and the WiiU. I think the bigger question to ask, does the WiiU matter at all right now in the current gen?
Agent Unknown
Member
Again, since many gamers on the net still think and are expecting it's the same power as 360/PS3, it's definitely worthwhile info when a developer that specializes in FPS games counters and says it's a "very powerful machine, moreso than 360/PS3."
The problem I think wiiU will run into is if they DON'T knock their sales out of the park they will have a hard time convincing developers to spend the extra time developing a gimped version of their game to put out on their system.
Sure they'll get their maddens and call of dutys but they probably won't get their dark souls, crysis, final fantasy, assassins creed, grand theft auto franchises, and so on. Those franchises that push the envelope and would take a significant reworking to port down to a system 6 or so times less powerful.
Still, I'll buy a wiiU. Probably won't right away since my biggest draw was paying wii games in HD but it looks like backwards compatibility is out. And since they didn't show any games outside of the launch lineup I'm not really rushing out to spend 250 to play pikimin 3 or another NSMB.
MrBelmontvedere
Member
what if its a case where simply dumbing it down isn't enough.
turn all the sliders down, low-res all the textures, and even do the silly sub-720p nonsense we see on current consoles. I am certain that even doing all that there will be cases where say a AAA PS4 title simply won't run on Wii U, or would require such extensive changes that the investment simply isn't worth it for anyone to bother.
oh but I do plan on buying a Wii U. but certainly not for the same titles I'll get on PC/PS4/Xbox 3.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
There's also the factor of how satisfied were these people with the Wii? Did it really live up to their expectations to where they're willing to invest in Nintendo's follow up, or did they wind up far happier with the Xbox 360 or PS3 they purchased?
I would imagine that person will return to the company whose console they had a great time with, and I find it hard to believe any Wii owner can be pleased with the system being starved for games for so long now, while Xbox and PS3 are still chugging along. I could easily see a lot of parents going well, little Jimmy still plays his Xbox, and these U games are the same ones he already has. I hear they're coming out with a new Xbox next year, so we'll just wait for that.
If I were to go anecdotal, the Wii wound up being the uncool system among every neighborhood kid, and young family member I know. They literally wanted nothing to do with it once they got their hands on PS3/360. It also wound up being shelved among the few people I knew who never buy gaming consoles, but thought it would be a fun way to get some excercise. In fact of all of the Wii owners I know I'm the only one who bothers to play it.
I was going on about diablo 2 because you made performance comment about it. Sure in the context of playing old games it shows you play old stuff but that doesn't imply people can't read or see more in to the comment. If you can't see why I was mentioning it was because your pushing an idea that is inaccurate about how power be it a pc or console works. Games don't always automatically get better because the power is there. Don't want to argue it then don't give out bad info.
As for relative, comparison or whatever word you wish to use doesn't change the whole sentiment that you're saying. If it does please do go on but I'm guessing from other posts not really.
I would talk more but at this point in between the att guy and the adt guy at my place not able too.
BTW soul calibur is not a good game to talk about diminishing returns not existing or not being that much of a factor. As someone who knows various people who worked or were involved with various version we could easily get how wrong those images are in the context of the point people are making. I won't go too deep but you could easily shut the argument down pointing out SC on the arcade to SC on the DC is more than enough ammo for that.
I raise you even old PSOne games, and for me at least, it nearly doesn't matter at all.Exercise for people who think it doesn't
Play a game on PS2/Wii/Gamecube in 480p
Play a game on PS3/X360 in non native 720p 20-25 fps frame rare
Play a game on powerfull PC in 1080p in 60 fps
and then tell me power doesn't matter for enjoyment of gaming
I mean, a cherry cake is better with a cherry, but if the cake is good, I enjoy it even without the cherry on top
EatinOlives
Member
Based on 1) historical evidence and 2) observing current advancements in technology. What actual, concrete pieces of evidence do you have to support the theory that there won't be a leap?
You're extrapolating way too liberally from simple facts. The PS3 was not "bleeding edge", the two components that pushed the price over the top were the Cell and Blu-Ray, two technologies that Sony was pushing for its own reasons, gaming not being one of them. You're correct they're not going to do the same thing for the PS4, but only in the sense that they're not going to put any wild CPUs or their next movie format trojan horse in there. Power-wise, there's zero indication that they're not going to go for the traditional generation jump.
And the Vita isn't tanking because of the hardware itself, it's tanking because Sony is stupid and doesn't know how to market and promote their own hardware.
Now you're just ranting with no direction.
Funny how you accuse some people of making assumptions with no facts to back them up, only for you to make the opposite assumption with no facts to back it up.
Nintendo fan? Oh shit, I have a Kid Icarus avatar. Let me change that to Master Chief or Drake really quick.
Because apparently it's too complicated for you, massive is "PS4 and 720 will have games that Wii U cannot similar to PS3/360 had games that Wii couldn't run."
Haha so "not losing as much" is supposed to be a bullet point? Microsoft can afford to bleed money in a sector until they're successful since that's the most effective strategy they had. Why the fuck are you bringing up the PS1 and PS2 in terms of financial loss considering they were the most underpowered systems of their generation?
Why do you feel the need to act like a condescending asshole? Does it make you feel better? First of all, I've been here a lot fucking longer than you have and have seen firsthand drivel and shit like this before.
"ZOMG DS is so weak PSP is gonna own the market Nintendo is d00m3d"
"lulz Wii what the fuck is this remote controller piece of shit 3rd party confirmed."
I've watched and participated in most meaningful threads on GAF over the generations to be able to comment on the industry so maybe you should stop talking like a smug douchebag.
Yeah, we need so much power to run Netflix and Hulu and Internet Explorer, I don't know how the 3DS can handle it. Must be all the magical Pikmin inside!
Do you realize the opposite of your first question is just as legitimate? Why do you believe that PS4 and Xbox 720 are going to make such a generational leap forward to the point where Wii U won't be able to receive ports of the games?
IMO your stretching what the positive comments actually indicate. Just like with Crytek, Andy's intention could be to reassure people that it's not just as powerful as the PS360.
I'm not sure how anyone can compare the Wii-U to the other next gen systems when final hardware isn't out. Just doesn't make sense.
You're going to compare cross gen games to a full fledge next gen title that isn't held back by today's hardware? SMH.
Well IMO people like that are only trolling and should be mocked, ignored, or shot down. The majority of gamers do not share their opinion.
Besides, again being more powerful than this gen is expected, and in no way news. I would say the same for any next gen system for any new generation.
If you think that a system that is likely 6 or so times powerful then another system won't have games the less powerful system can't run effectively or at the very least won't be ported to it due to a poor cost/benefit ratio then by all means.
the rest I won't bother with. When a poster comes in hurling insults toward a group of people and then continuously changes the conversations subsequently in order to keep hurling insults, well, he's just not a poster worth conversing with.
the rest I won't bother with. When a poster comes in hurling insults toward a group of people and then continuously changes the conversations subsequently in order to keep hurling insults, well, he's just not a poster worth conversing with.
Well, I talk about it in financial terms a lot.
Boss Man
Member
This shit can't be for real.
I really don't expect third parties to end up much different next gen than they have been this gen. It'll start out pretty level, but after a couple of years it will be "PS4/720 and Wii U" not PS4/720/Wii U" Nintendo is doing its own thing, and good for them frankly.
Why are you so worried about Wii U getting ports anyway? The Wii didn't get them and it's still the best console this gen, right?
Chû Totoro
Member
If there is one thing Nintendo should do, it's giving away some dev kits to indie devs so they can make games on the system.
Lots of opportunity for them to be creative, less dev costs and a brand new system so a lot of visibility are very good arguments.
A lot of big editors (EA and first) can keep going with games on the other systems, I personaly don't care.
Lots of opportunity for them to be creative, less dev costs and a brand new system so a lot of visibility are very good arguments.
A lot of big editors (EA and first) can keep going with games on the other systems, I personaly don't care.
What? lol
Yea, if you read anything more into that comment, you shouldn't have. Like I said, it was a throwaway comment.
It certainly does change everything. The word relative is definitely key and not to be too insulting, but I'm not sure whats so difficult for you to understand about it. This little discussion of ours has gone nowhere cuz you still cant even grasp my basic point.
Resident Evil 2 was a good looking game when it came out for the PS1.
Perhaps you still think its a good looking game, cuz you can appreciate the art style and how good it was for its time, but relative to Resident Evil 5, it looks bad:
I dont see how there's any arguing that. Doesn't mean that Resident Evil 2 is crap or anything. But standards change and it does not hold up to modern standards, obviously. This was all I ever was trying to say. I thought I was being pretty clear about it, but maybe I just wasn't getting my point across clear enough, I dont know. But anyways, yea. Dont even remember what the point of the discussion was at this point.
Sean, go and play Dead Island, check out the graphics in that, and then watch the ZombiU trailer again. Pretty much the improvement I'd expect to see if hardware manufacturer's were to bring out a new console today. 2-3x the RAM, allowing a higher texture detail/variety and a more advanced graphics card, allowing higher-quality shader effects such as lighting, depth-of-field etc. If you're a core gamer, the difference is noticeable.
All talk of Avatar aside, what realistically needs improving with current console graphics? I'd say the resolution is pretty-much good enough for console at 720p-1080p, as is the amount of polygons being thrown around. Things that need fixing: framerates, texture variety/fidelity, shader effects and physics.
I think they came really close with current hardware, but just missed the mark slightly. 512MB etc seems kinda measly, but look at games on PC like Crysis 2 that require, just to play on LOW, 2GB of RAM. You can play that shit on consoles with 512MB! Developers learn to work quite well within console hardware constraints.
Also, regarding DC and PS2 being the same gen: Dreamcast was roughly 30x N64's duct-taped together, whereas PS2 was equivalent to 200x N64's duct-taped together. At the same time though, you had certain games like Dead or Alive that actually looked better on DC. You could reply with the fact that developers were still learning the new hardware/lazily porting to it without much optimisation... but the same thing could probably be said of Wii U's current situation.
I imagine this is directed at me so I'm curious what insults did I hurl exactly? You consider saying 'heads in the clouds' an insult?
This shit can't be for real.
Why are you so worried about Wii U getting ports anyway? The Wii didn't get them and it was still the best console this gen, right? Or do you think PS3 or 360 was better this gen?
I wear my GAF badge with pride, doesn't mean you have to.
I'm not worried about Wii U getting ports, I asked a legitimate question on why people are under the assumption that the PS4 and Xbox 720 will have games that won't be on the Wii U for hardware performance reasons. I don't really care either way, I buy Nintendo systems primarily for Nintendo games and even in the next generation unless Nintendo's Miiverse online integration is equivalent to Xbox Live, which is doubtful, I'll probably play third party games online on my 360.
Agent Unknown
Member
Chû Totoro
Member
What? lol
Yea, if you read anything more into that comment, you shouldn't have. Like I said, it was a throwaway comment.
It certainly does change everything. The word relative is definitely key and not to be too insulting, but I'm not sure whats so difficult for you to understand about it. This little discussion of ours has gone nowhere cuz you still cant even grasp my basic point.
Resident Evil 2 was a good looking game when it came out for the PS1.
Perhaps you still think its a good looking game, cuz you can appreciate the art style and how good it was for its time, but relative to Resident Evil 5, it looks bad:
I dont see how there's any arguing that. Doesn't mean that Resident Evil 2 is crap or anything. But standards change and it does not hold up to modern standards, obviously. This was all I ever was trying to say. I thought I was being pretty clear about it, but maybe I just wasn't getting my point across clear enough, I dont know. But anyways, yea. Dont even remember what the point of the discussion was at this point.
Perfect quote.
RE2 is still better. Sorry man.
I found (what I've played of) System Shock more immersive than Bioshock, personally.
It's basically all about architecture and rendering capabilities. If the Wii U is close enough that ports between the systems are possible with modern architecture it won't matter. I think that seems highly likely at this point. Even in the event the other next gen systems are significantly more powerful they won't necessarily see the jump in ARCHITECTURE so there won't be much reason you can't port between the 3.
Boss Man
Member
Eh, I disagree with both of you! Rawr!
I don't think the Wii U is going to end up being a "barely noticeable" jump from PS3/360, but I don't think it's as much of a leap as I could have expected today (and especially not next year).
After the Wii, it's about what I expected from Nintendo. Maybe a little more, actually. I expected it to be that "barely noticeable" or right in line with PS3/360, but I think it'll turn out midway between this gen and next gen (graphically speaking).
Doesn't matter if they're more powerful or not, to me. PC first man, so console power is more like a cute novelty for me.
Beside that, I haven't been impressed visually by a video game since Super Mario 64. That's the last time I said, "Wow." It's all about what you do with the power that interests/impresses me. Do something unique and you'll get my dollars (or be a battlefield game).
Beside that, I haven't been impressed visually by a video game since Super Mario 64. That's the last time I said, "Wow." It's all about what you do with the power that interests/impresses me. Do something unique and you'll get my dollars (or be a battlefield game).
Let me guess, you thought Randy Pitchford of Gearbox was lying when he said Wii U was more powerful than PS3 and 360?
It has nothing to do with your avatar. Your naive posts are telling enough.
It's not complicated at all, a generational leap differs between person to person, that's why it's subjective. You explaining your understanding of a generational leap means nothing. For you it could be the inability to port to the Wii-U, for me it could be the need to massively cut down the game in order to run on the Wii-U. They aren't the same.
Are you purposely being this obtuse or is this all just above your head?
There is no bullet point. You pointed out how much Sony lost this gen because of the PS3, I only mentioned the 360 to prove you can provide similar levels of performance without losing as much. Also I brought up the ps1 and ps2 because both offered generational leaps in performance without costing Sony an arm and a leg.
The whole point of this was to prove you don't have to lose as much as Sony did this gen to offer a good leap. Comprehending now?
Yes it does make me feel better, thanks for asking. =p It just boggles my mind that people can not only post the bullshit that you post, but frightening enough, actually believe it. Also, I don't see how it's relevant how long you've been a GAF member. That doesn't make you any less clueless.
Until I start posting silly posts like "ZOMG DS is so weak PSP is gonna own the market Nintendo is d00m3d", I don't see how this crap is relevant to me. I keep a realistic view of things, and I usually don't jump to conclusions.
And yet again you demonstrate how you fail at reading comprehension. Did you miss the word "simultaneously" when I mentioned both being a multi-media machine and a game machine? How netflix works on the 3DS has nothing to do with how features may work on these next gen systems.
Great job on the name calling through, real classy. So in all your years on GAF, you picked up the strategy of insulting people when you can't dispute their point?
When did I say it's guaranteed that the Wii-U won't be able to receive ports? I've always expressed the opinion that either scenario is a possibility and have repeatedly said that 3rd party sales on the Wii-U will be one of the biggest factors behind publisher support.
Also, I already answered why the ps4 and 720 have to be a good leap. It would be a huge waste of money to release a system that's marginally more powerful than their current offerings.
You have no idea what I'm even saying, so this is all pointless drivel.
Boss Man
Member
It was more about you calling him a "smug douchebag" right after proclaiming your NeoGAF prowess. But that's cool man.
The way I see it: if even a few noteworthy games use the ramped up power of "next-gen" systems besides ramping up the resolution (or not), framerate (or not), IQ (or not) or effects (Yes! Moar effects, sub-30 fps forevaaa!/publishers), but add better physics, destruction, level size, cloth, water, particle simulation, whatever you call the effects you had on the level actually staying, the lesser power of the Wii-U will matter A LOT to me.
Besides, this gen or a bit more powerful isn't a cut of point for "good enough". Lots of the more complex or ambitious games still make consoles struggle really hard at horrible resolutions and still get framerates that are only acceptable, not good. Optimiziaton costs money, too, so the situation is even worse with multiplat games.
Besides, this gen or a bit more powerful isn't a cut of point for "good enough". Lots of the more complex or ambitious games still make consoles struggle really hard at horrible resolutions and still get framerates that are only acceptable, not good. Optimiziaton costs money, too, so the situation is even worse with multiplat games.