Support NeoGAF

[Mahonay]

Well if you recognize that, you must also recognize Roman is part of the work in 2017. They're never not working us.

Lol. Bad TV and bad booking IS NOT A WORK. Fuck. It's just bad. Why do you care about convincing us it's some 4th dimensional elaborate work?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Well if you recognize that, you must also recognize Roman is part of the work in 2017. They're never not working us.

He's out of touch too.

 

[Mahonay]

He's out of touch too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00M2KZH1J0

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Lol. Bad TV and bad booking IS NOT A WORK. Fuck. It's just bad. Why do you care about convincing us it's some 4th dimensional elaborate work?

I don't disagree it's bad. I'm also not saying it's elaborate. They know you already hate Roman, so what exactly is it they're not doing for you?

They're focusing on who likes him and marketing to them, and they're loud and loving it. No one goes anywhere focusing on winning over their haters. (Believe that.)

 

[Mahonay]

(Believe that.)

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I don't disagree it's bad. I'm also not saying it's elaborate. They know you already hate Roman, so what exactly is it they're not doing for you? They're focusing on who likes them and marketing to them, and they're loud and loving it. No one goes anywhere focusing on winning over their haters. (Believe that.)

No, they know we hate roman, but Vince believed he knows best, has no competition in america, no longer relies on ppv buys and has no real reason not to stubbornly keep pushing reigns until he gets cheered.

Unless the tv contracts come up and USA suddenly has hit shows and looks unfavourably on wwf's flagging ratings. Then reigns will be dropped immediately. But until then, he persists.

And as I said the other day, reign's merch sales are nowhere near his push. They're top five but way below cena's. Other people are at the same level as him without his push.

He is booed in ppvs, booed on tv, and gets mixed reactions on house shows, which is far worse then cena at any time.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

No, they know we hate roman, but Vince believed he knows best, has no competition in america, no longer relies on ppv buys and has no real reason not to stubbornly keep pushing reigns until he gets cheered.

Do you see where you just turned cynical out of nowhere?

Could it just be women and kids love him more than younger adult men?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Do you see where you just turned cynical out of nowhere?

Could it just be women and kids love him more than younger adult men?

I'm sure they do.

They also love him waaaaaaaaaay less then they love Cena. Because his merch sales are nothing special, he doesn't get cheered anywhere near as much and he doesn't pop ratings on tv or change house show numbers.

Most of that 250k who tuned out for hour 3 on monday were women. The main event? A pushed roman reigns/brawn strowman match.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Maybe they can merge WWE and Power Rangers together

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I'm sure they do.

They also love him waaaaaaaaaay less then they love Cena. Because his merch sales are nothing special, he doesn't get cheered anywhere near as much and he doesn't pop ratings on tv or change house show numbers.

Most of that 250k who tuned out for hour 3 on monday were women. The main event? A pushed roman reigns/brawn strowman match.

I hear you, but who else, then? That's what Finn Balor was supposed to be before the injury. We don't know what a Wrestlemania without an injured Finn was going to be. But since we're here, there's no one but Roman getting that huge reaction and merch sales from women and kids (and notice how his opponents are often heels loved by the hardcore crowd?).

Wrestling in the next few years is going to be a lot more like sports team rivalry talk than "I like faces and like all the faces like a common fan, and that guy likes all the funny heels like a hardcore fan." Those stereotypes are going away.

 

[Mahonay]

I hear you, but who else, then? That's what Finn Balor was supposed to be before the injury. We don't know what a Wrestlemania without an injured Finn was going to be. But since we're here, there's no one but Roman getting that huge reaction and merch sales from women and kids (and notice how his opponents are often heels loved by the hardcore crowd?).

Jericho is a bigger face than Reigns at the moment, and gets huge reactions.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Jericho is a bigger face than Reigns at the moment, and gets huge reactions.

You just tried to argue that near-50 Chris Jericho, part-timer leaving after Wrestlemania, should have been the face of the company and the future of WWE since guys boo Roman.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I don't disagree it's bad. I'm also not saying it's elaborate. They know you already hate Roman, so what exactly is it they're not doing for you?

They're focusing on who likes him and marketing to them, and they're loud and loving it. No one goes anywhere focusing on winning over their haters. (Believe that.)

Booking him as a face within the narrative on the story.

You seem to think that Vince is pulling some crazy double swerve when the past decade or so should tell you that the dude is just stubborn and incompetent anymore.

You just tried to argue that near-50 Chris Jericho, part-timer leaving after Wrestlemania, should have been the face of the company and the future of WWE since guys boo Roman.

As someone who is a lapsed fan who only gets his news from people who still watch it, I'd be far more interested in a Jericho nostaglia trip over the snooze fest that is Roman Reigns.

At least I'd have some sort of emotion towards Jericho.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I hear you, but who else, then? That's what Finn Balor was supposed to be before the injury. We don't know what a Wrestlemania without an injured Finn was going to be. But since we're here, there's no one but Roman getting that huge reaction and merch sales from women and kids (and notice how his opponents are often heels loved by the hardcore crowd?).

Wrestling in the next few years is going to be a lot more like sports team rivalry talk than "I like faces and like all the faces like a common fan, and that guy likes all the funny heels like a hardcore fan." Those stereotypes are going away.

I mean, the four horsemen used to get cheered. Cool heels always will.

wwf's problem for a long time is that they build highly unlikeable babyfaces, and that their heel's promo's always make sense and target parts of the storyline where babyfaces don't act like babyfaces.

Bayley was a great, old fashioned babyface on NXT. Zayn was the same. But their angles on raw have made bayley seem like someone who's kind of ok with reaping the proceeds of someone elses cheating, and Zayn a loser.

This has always been a problem for them to some extent (face hogan cheated and got sid eliminated in a rumble almost thirty years ago), but it's blown up as the competition died and wrestlers lost the ability to argue with vince and fight their corner.

 

[Mahonay]

You just tried to argue that near-50 Chris Jericho, part-timer leaving after Wrestlemania, should have been the face of the company and the future of WWE since guys boo Roman.

Jericho has been a full-time worker. He's there every week and wrestlers all the god damn time and is putting over a younger talent (KO).

So yeah, it's different.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Booking him as a face within the narrative on the story.

You seem to think that Vince is pulling some crazy double swerve when the past decade or so should tell you that the dude is just stubborn and incompetent anymore.

To me, Roman is the face and the smart fans are the heels. If they hate Roman so much, stop giving Vince money. Or shut up.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Booking him as a face within the narrative on the story.

You seem to think that Vince is pulling some crazy double swerve when the past decade or so should tell you that the dude is just stubborn and incompetent anymore.

There's no double swerve. It's really simple: women and little kids watch now. Their opinions matter, too. You're probably going to be a fan of the other guy facing Roman, so you have your stake in the match.

How many people here watch these shows with their kids? I've never not met a Cena-loving kid who watched wrestling, even if they also understood how funny heels are. Ron Funches says he asked his kid to come to PWG with him, and he said "that's adult stuff" and just wants to watch John Cena. I don't know any Roman fans personally, but I see them at the house shows, guys.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

To me, Roman is the face and the smart fans are the heels. If they hate Roman so much, stop giving Vince money. Or shut up.

Seriously!!

I'll attempt a different angle: no one here is talking about Apollo Crews, even though he's a boring face who should be a wicked heel, too. It's because he's not over with us, on this level that makes us want to talk about him. We don't care about his career. For some reason, everyone here cares about Roman Reigns enough to talk about him literally every week, even if we skip his stuff like we skip Apollo Crews stuff. It's frustrating and bizarre.

 

[Mahonay]

To me, Roman is the face and the smart fans are the heels. If they hate Roman so much, stop giving Vince money. Or shut up.

Because everything in life is black and white like this statement.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

To me, Roman is the face and the smart fans are the heels. If they hate Roman so much, stop giving Vince money. Or shut up.

I don't give him any money. And I don't watch anywhere near regularly anymore. I pop it on once every couple months in hopes that they've gotten their shit together

I'd like to watch again, because there are a handful of wrestlers I like on the roster. But I rarely even bother trying anymore because everytime I dare ask someone about it or flip on Raw, it ends up being boring as all hell.

And telling people to shut up because they're complaining about something that you like is fucking childish. Grow up.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

And telling people to shut up because they're complaining about something that you like is fucking childish. Grow up.

I didn't take the "shut up" like that, but more like how we say we watch NXT or indies instead, but most of what's talked about online is Roman. It's always Roman. He can't come out on TV without the crowd exploding in way or another, every single time he ever comes out. He's over.

So if we really are bored by this guy, why can't anyone else on the show get a better reaction other than the vets? Why is Roman all anyone talks about on the Internet, anywhere you go? We've made people fall out of the main event through total apathy before, and this guy isn't just coasting on strong booking.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Seriously!!

I'll attempt a different angle: no one here is talking about Apollo Crews, even though he's a boring face who should be a wicked heel, too. It's because he's not over with us, on this level that makes us want to talk about him. We don't care about his career. For some reason, everyone here cares about Roman Reigns enough to talk about him literally every week, even if we skip his stuff like we skip Apollo Crews stuff. It's frustrating and bizarre.

Because he loses almost every week and is lost in bad booking and stilted promos, like a lot of guys at that level.

We talked about him in NXT when he was used a bit better (his promos still weren't great though, and limited him).

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Because he loses almost every week and is lost in bad booking and stilted promos, like a lot of guys at that level.

We talked about him in NXT when he was used a bit better (his promos still weren't great though, and limited him).

But then we also have Dolph Ziggler, who people supposedly care about, who was a boring face for far too long, who finally turned heel and started winning and being more human, and he gets silence.

It's not all the booking. Roman's just over with an audience you guys don't know. And if you talk about him, he's over with you.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

But then we also have Dolph Ziggler, who people supposedly care about, who was a boring face for far too long, who finally turned heel and started winning and being more human, and he gets silence.

It's not all the booking. Roman's just over with an audience you guys don't know. And with you, on a level deeper than you may assume.

No, he turned heel and still lost a lot, and worked and cut promos like he was still a face. He should have gone on a big winning streak and been more vicious in the ring and changed up his promos.

 

[Mahonay]

But then we also have Dolph Ziggler, who people supposedly care about, who was a boring face for far too long, who finally turned heel and started winning and being more human, and he gets silence.

It's not all the booking. Roman's just over with an audience you guys don't know. And if you talk about him, he's over with you.

I don't think anyone has liked Ziggler for at least a year.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't think anyone has liked Ziggler for at least a year.

Supposedly no one likes Roman, either.

 

[Heroman]

I wonder who this secret pro Roman reigns audience is cause clearly they aint watching

 

[Zen_Arcade]

There's no double swerve. It's really simple: women and little kids watch now. Their opinions matter, too. You're probably going to be a fan of the other guy facing Roman, so you have your stake in the match.

How many people here watch these shows with their kids? I've never not met a Cena-loving kid who watched wrestling, even if they also understood how funny heels are. Ron Funches says he asked his kid to come to PWG with him, and he said "that's adult stuff" and just wants to watch John Cena. I don't know any Roman fans personally, but I see them at the house shows, guys.

I don't have a stake in the match because I don't care what happens. The characters and plotlines were almost always boring and the wrestling was hit or miss. I don't hate Roman Reigns like I hated other heels. I don't want Reigns to get beat up (Even if it's by someone I actually like), I just want him to go away.

You're mistaking the apathy/dislike of a bad product with the dislike of a character. If I merely hated the character, I'd keep watching so I could eventually see his comeuppance. But since what I dislike is the product, of which Reigns is a huge part of, I just change the channel.

I didn't take the "shut up" like that, but more like how we say we watch NXT or indies instead, but most of what's talked about online is Roman. It's always Roman. He can't come out on TV without the crowd exploding in way or another, every single time he ever comes out. He's over.

So if we really are bored by this guy, why can't anyone else on the show get a better reaction other than the vets? Why is Roman all anyone talks about on the Internet, anywhere you go? We've made people fall out of the main event through total apathy before, and this guy isn't just coasting on strong booking.

Well assuming that current WWE is anything like WWE from a year and a half ago (Which it seemingly is) it's because they do a bad job at making anyone give a shit about the vast majority of their characters and because Reigns is their golden boy.

Saying that Roman Reigns is the most popular new wrestler in the WWE in an era that has constantly been criticised for its wasting of talent isn't exactly a good point. It just means he's the guy at the tip of the shitpile.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I wonder who this secret pro Roman reigns audience is cause clearly they aint watching

You've got to give us someone that isn't Roman who fits his role, then. Jericho was suggested but is hilarious. He's obviously mega over too, but he has a different role and audience.

Who sells the merch and appeals to kids and women? (It's Finn Balor. He's been injured. He was supposed to be the new Roman.)

 

[Paracelsus]

Roman is easily the worst name they insistently push to the top, at least of the past 25 years. He retroactively redeems everybody before him. He only got a good looking face, his body looks sloppy as shit, he only acts strong, he has less power moves than Triple H (at least he had the goddamn spinebuster), he only acts like he can wrestle, he's got nothing on the usos. People who hated the miz but like roman or are fine with what's happening are everything that is wrong with the business right now.

And besides, nothing they can do will make him likeable, the ship has sailed long ago. This is what happens when you have no long term plans for anybody. A face needs a heel, and vice versa, Batista had HHH and it was more than enough, Cena had JBL then plenty more.

Who is this supposed mega villain I hate so much that I would love for a new superhero for the kids like oldberg to raise up and kick his butt? Owens? Joe? They do nothing to be hated because they only beat up suckers.

 

[Mahonay]

You've got to give us someone that isn't Roman who fits his role, then. Jericho was suggested but is hilarious. He's obviously mega over too, but he has a different role and audience.

Who sells the merch and appeals to kids and women? (It's Finn Balor. He's been injured. He was supposed to be the new Roman.)

Vince's urge to try and instantly create a new Cena is what has killed Roman's face push and could kill Finn when he gets back. He over-pushes to try and immediately make a new top guy.

The writing is bad across the board on RAW. Let's not forget that heinously bad Seth vs Balor feud before he got injured in the title match. DEMON KING, DEMON KING, WHERE ARE YOU DEMON KING?

And yeah Jericho is in a different role since he gets to have a lot more input in his story.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Well assuming that current WWE is anything like WWE from a year and a half ago (Which it seemingly is) it's because they do a bad job at making anyone give a shit about the vast majority of their characters and because Reigns is their golden boy.

Saying that Roman Reigns is the most popular new wrestler in the WWE in an era that has constantly been criticised for its wasting of talent isn't exactly a good point. It just means he's the most popular guy on the shit pile.

These arguments are so tired. Seth Rollins, Finn Balor, and Kevin Owens are recent Universal champions. These are three generations of NXT already holding the main title and having actual main event heat. The New Day was the first over tag team since the golden years, broke records, and greatly exceeded expectations. Neville really is a King now. AJ Styles and Samoa Joe are exactly where they should have been 10 years ago.

I think you guys are underestimating just how fucked they've been because Finn Balor got injured. Think about where we would be right now.

 

[Paracelsus]

These arguments are so tired. Seth Rollins, Finn Balor, and Kevin Owens are recent Universal champions. These are three generations of NXT already holding the main title and having actual main event heat. The New Day was the first over tag team since the golden years, broke records, and greatly exceeded expectations. Neville really is a King now. AJ Styles and Samoa Joe are exactly where they should have been 10 years ago.

I think you guys are underestimating just how fucked they've been because Finn Balor got injured. Think about where we would be right now.

Owens is a heel that got his title stolen by a heel so that another heel can take it from him and later pass it to the next big heel at Summerslam.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

These arguments are so tired. Seth Rollins, Finn Balor, and Kevin Owens are recent Universal champions. These are three generations of NXT already holding the main title and having actual main event heat. The New Day was the first over tag team since the golden years, broke records, and greatly exceeded expectations. Neville really is a King now.

I think you guys are underestimating just how fucked they've been because Finn Balor got injured. Think about where we would be right now.

I watched when Seth and KO were on. I really didn't care about them. I liked KO more than Seth, but not enough to watch for him. Both of their characters are so boring.

The New Day is pretty much the only thing on the roster I like as much as I liked wrestlers back when I watched regularly.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Owens is a heel that got his title stolen by a heel so that another heel can take it from him and later pass it to the next big heel at Summerslam.

So about this cynicism I keep bringing up

 

[RecRoulette]

These arguments are so tired. Seth Rollins, Finn Balor, and Kevin Owens are recent Universal champions. These are three generations of NXT already holding the main title and having actual main event heat. The New Day was the first over tag team since the golden years, broke records, and greatly exceeded expectations. Neville really is a King now. AJ Styles and Samoa Joe are exactly where they should have been 10 years ago.

I think you guys are underestimating just how fucked they've been because Finn Balor got injured. Think about where we would be right now.

No one would care about Finn Balor or worst he would be another Roman Reigns.

The Rollins vs Balor feud was fucking dire (remember Seth Rollins' history lessons on THE DEMON KING) and NXT already showed that they have no restraint on using the demon.

Sucks for Balor, but I think him getting injured did wonders for preserving his character.

Edit: Since Roman got mentioned a lot, I think Roman vs Taker is an amazing idea, and I hope Roman goes over clean. I don't even care if he turns heel or not anymore.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

So about this cynicism I keep bringing up

How long does something have to be bad before you start thinking cynically about it?

Because telling WWE fans not to be cynical is like telling Cleveland Browns fans "There's always next year." technically it's always true, but history dictates that we shouldn't get our hopes up.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

How long does something have to be bad before you start thinking cynically about it?

Because telling WWE fans not to be cynical is like telling Cleveland Browns fans "There's always next year." technically it's always true, but history dictates that we shouldn't get our hopes up.

Ha, wrestling fandom really has become more like sports fandom in all ways.

#TeamRoman

I think I see Triple H getting WWE to where we want it to be faster than you guys may be seeing it. Nakamura's coming up after WM, the women's tournament is coming, the global expansion and diversity of stars is obvious, etc. NXT, Cruiser tourney, and UK Tournament were all phenomenal, and Vince can't live forever or monitor all of these new shows coming. Changes come up to Raw slowly, but consider we just had a great women's match main eventing a PPV, which I remember no one seeing coming until after this WM at the earliest.

 

[Paracelsus]

No one would care about Finn Balor or worst he would be another Roman Reigns.

The Rollins vs Balor feud was fucking dire (remember Seth Rollins' history lessons on THE DEMON KING) and NXT already showed that they have no restraint on using the demon.

Sucks for Balor, but I think him getting injured did wonders for preserving his character.

To be fair there is exactly one place where Balor can be, and it's on Smackdown against Wyatt, it's the only way that his demonic gimmick doesn't look cheesy. It's also the best thing to happen because the sooner they take the belt off Orton, the better.

 

[Mahonay]

Ha, wrestling fandom really has become more like sports fandom in all ways.

#TeamRoman

Fake sports

#TeamRoomba

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Ha, wrestling fandom really has become more like sports fandom in all ways.

#TeamRoman

I think I see Triple H getting WWE to where we want it to be faster than you guys may be seeing it. Nakamura's coming up after WM, the women's tournament is coming, the global expansion and diversity of stars is obvious, etc.

I don't know why I should care about any of those things when HHH has already been in charge for a while and the product hasn't improved enough to make me watch again.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't know why I should care about any of those things when HHH has already been in charge for a while and the product hasn't improved enough to make me watch again.

TBH, X-Pac's podcast and some of his interviews have a lot of nuggets about the power struggle we don't see. I ride bikes, I listen to a lot of this hot garbage when there's a good guest.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

TBH, X-Pac's podcast and some of his interviews have a lot of nuggets about the power struggle we don't see. I ride bikes, I listen to a lot of this hot garbage when there's a good guest.

That power struggle is exactly why people are being cynical and not giving WWE the benefit of the doubt. They've already had talent and cool ideas go to waste. So listing all of the cool stuff they're thinking up now is meaningless to me because based off my experience watching over the past decade or so, my first instinct is to think "They're going to find a way to fuck up most of those ideas."

 

[RecRoulette]

I don't know why I should care about any of those things when HHH has already been in charge for a while and the product hasn't improved enough to make me watch again.

Strangely enough, the return of Shane McMahon allowed Kevin Dunn to survive the power struggle that was going on. (And the Vince/Dunn duo is the main reason things are the way they are)

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

That power struggle is exactly why people are being cynical and not giving WWE the benefit of the doubt. They've already had talent and cool ideas go to waste. So listing all of the cool stuff they're thinking up now is meaningless to me because based of my experience watching the past decade or soy first instinct is to think "They're going to find a way to fuck up most of those ideas."

I understand.

How many people feel the same as me? I may be assuming this is a common thought.

Literally any Triple H show >>>>>>>> Raw / Smackdown / 205 Live

I feel like the Network is going to save wrestling. Vince is too busy to focus on anything but the Monday and Tuesday TV shows.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I understand.

How many people feel the same as me? I may be assuming this is a common thought.

Literally any Triple H show >>>>>>>> Raw / Smackdown / 205 Live

Well yeah, for sure. But that doesn't mean it's a good show overall.

 

[Heroman]

I understand.

How many people feel the same as me? I may be assuming this is a common thought.

Literally any Triple H show >>>>>>>> Raw / Smackdown / 205 Live

I feel like the Network is going to save wrestling. Vince is too busy to focus on anything but the Monday and Tuesday TV show wes.

What? Network isn't going to save Wrestling .

And smackdown and 205 love has been better than NXT for a while.

 

[Mahonay]

I understand.

How many people feel the same as me? I may be assuming this is a common thought.

Literally any Triple H show >>>>>>>> Raw / Smackdown / 205 Live

I feel like the Network is going to save wrestling. Vince is too busy to focus on anything but the Monday and Tuesday TV shows.

Smackdown has been very good.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I agree, Smackdown has been good lately. Finally got you guys to be positive.

I hope I never see you guys talk Roman again.

 

[Anth0ny]

fuck the roman reigns