The VGA reveal started with the same phrasing as the UC4 reveal "directly captured on a..." That led many people to believe it's realtime.
Uncharted 4 Trailer runs in-engine, in-game, in realtime on a single PS4 at 1080p60
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Dictator93
Member
The arguments that this is video real time is because a shadow has some banding and aliasing.
Shadow aliasing is not the same as full screen aliasing. Shaow mapping inherently is harder to stop aliasing and bias issues on. Shadow mapping is an inherent flawed technique. Seeing shadow acne in pre-rendered game movies is not surprising (happens in source movie maker, cryengine pre-rendered vidoes, etc...). It is just how the shadows work.
The thing that is completely questionable about this is video is the Image quality regarding aliasing that is not visible at all. Thin geometry problems, specular aliasing, texture aliasing, imperfect anti-aliasing problems due to a lack of super sampling is not visible here at all.
It looks super sampled. Similar to how uncharted pre-rendered videos have no aliasing, but the game is full of aliasing due to real time requirements. Questionable that naughty dog could solve real time anti-aliasing at 1080p 60fps with the asset quality shown in the video.
I will not doubt the fact that the game could have similar quality assets. But 60 fps on a ps4 with basically no image quality problems at 1080p....
Sounds like some pipe dream.
farmerboy
Member
I think this thread is getting hilariously ridiculous.
I feel like this is what some people are trying to argue.
Don't judge my drawing.
I'd still buy it.
Edit: What the hell is going on in here?
TLoU's prerendered cutscenes have a significant amount of aliasing as well. I'm really curious as to what kind of AA this uses. It's been counted as 1080 by mutiple sources.
PR Big Mac
Real Big Mac.
Marketing & PR people (whom would have written 'Captured on PS3' not ND, FWIW) present their products in the best way possible without being legally misleading. That you personally don't like it is neither here nor there legally.
'Captured from/on PS3' is a very vague sentence (and as someone pointed out, there was history as to why a phrase like which simply means 'playing on a PS3 would have marketing value)
'Running in real-time, in engine, on a single PS4 in 1080p at 60fps' is a very, very specific sentence and claim to make. If they were to go on to say 'This is also what the final game will look like' they'd be making a very, very large truth statement that could be legally challenged.
I think this thread is getting hilariously ridiculous.
I feel like this is what some people are trying to argue.
Don't judge my drawing.
That's amazing.
NullPointer
Member
Man, I remember Bungie saying those very words about Halo 3.
2014 and I'm still waiting for my realtime reflections in master chief's visor.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Don't forget that Ellie was change a fair amount because she look to much like ellen page .
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
PR Big Mac
Real Big Mac.
Marketing & PR people (whom would have written 'Captured on PS3' not ND, FWIW) present their products in the best way possible without being legally misleading. That you personally don't like it is neither here nor there legally.
'Captured from/on PS3' is a very vague sentence (and as someone pointed out, there was history as to why a phrase like which simply means 'playing on a PS3 would have marketing value)
'Running in real-time, in engine, on a single PS4 in 1080p at 60fps' is a very, very specific sentence and claim to make. If they were to go on to say 'This is also what the final game will look like' they'd be making a very, very large truth statement that could be legally challenged.
They did say it was from a single PS4 as well as that everything in the trailer is from a actual level. So according to your post they have made a statement that can be legally challenged
I really hate it when people talk about TLOU reveal as it not the same or downgrade compared the final version. Look it these photos for Joel and it's very clearly that the details in his face were upgrade:
VGA reveal :
Final in-game :
Final cutscene / prerender
So yeah, I think it's upgraded since the reveal
I'll give you the argument that Joel's model got a bit more detail in the pre-rendered cutscenes, but he never looked that good in game. It is a lot more noticeable with Ellie. The lighting is favoring your pics in those in game shots (referring to the first post I quoted), and the IQ was never that good. Lets not forget the framerate dipping into the 20's.
I think this thread is getting hilariously ridiculous.
I feel like this is what some people are trying to argue.
Don't judge my drawing.
This is why these threads are the worst lol.
Keep playing up the hyperbole. I can't speak for everyone, but I wasn't saying the game won't come close to the cutscene they showed. I'm just saying I'm not buying it till I see it in-game. No cutscenes or pre planned bullshit, just someone playing the game. Even then you have to be vigilant, since The Last of Us AI was never as good as they demoed and was actually kind a let down in an otherwise brilliant game, the AI was just a slight upgrade over the Uncharted AI.
Except one particular boss that was fucking awesome.
I rather come in with the seeing is believing stance, than coming in with the typical bloated GAF hype that follow ND games. That way I won't be one of the people making the, "Are you disappointed with how the visuals in Uncharted 4 ended up?" threads if the game doesn't look like the best thing ever. I am actually excited for the game, and am assuming they are also doing another MP since UC3's was really successful. I met a lot of friends on there, and my real life friends had a blast with me too. It is one of my favorite IPs of last gen.
Dictator93
Member
There is no doub thtat it is 1080p, but you can also count a 1080p image from a 16k downsample that is presented in 1920X1080.
PR Big Mac
Real Big Mac.
Marketing & PR people (whom would have written 'Captured on PS3' not ND, FWIW) present their products in the best way possible without being legally misleading. That you personally don't like it is neither here nor there legally.
'Captured from/on PS3' is a very vague sentence (and as someone pointed out, there was history as to why a phrase like which simply means 'playing on a PS3 would have marketing value)
'Running in real-time, in engine, on a single PS4 in 1080p at 60fps' is a very, very specific sentence and claim to make. If they were to go on to say 'This is also what the final game will look like' they'd be making a very, very large truth statement that could be legally challenged.
Hey that real bigmac looks surprisingly good! You should see the turds I've gotten over the years, I haven't eaten one for like 14 years or so, though, so current gen bigmacs could be like that I guess...
Pound_lb003
Member
You guys gotta understand the skepticism though.
Saying Uncharted 4 will look like that at 1080p60 is a big thing.
Saying Uncharted 4 will look like that at 1080p60 is a big thing.
I'm a bit skeptical too but the statements of multiple lead programmers on ths team makes me want to believe them for the time being until we get evidence otherwise.
SniperHunter
Banned
Hmm the skeptics have a good point though. Game looks too clean for something running at 1080p and 60 fps
somuchwater
Member
After the Killzone 2 debacle, do you really think ND would come out and say publicly that this is game engine and then turn around later and say "JK guys!"? What would they have to gain by that?
If the cutscene looks like that in the game, there's no issue - and I know that the 'running on a single PS4' was part of the claim, which is why I wrote it in,
Regarding it being from a level - two arguments
1, It's a non-interactive cut-scene and not gameplay - they didn't claim it was representative of final gameplay.
2. Gameplay is still rendering at 1080/60, but the engine uses adapative AA/LOD/tesselation so the interactive model won't look exactly like this - which TBF is what I or anyone sensible would expect since there no doubt will be adaptive LOD and so on for the bits where you're playing.
What would be interesting & impressive is if when you zoom into Drake's face while playing that the model does appear with the custscene LOD & AA.
Personally I'm in the 'Believe it was displayed as claimed (realtime, in engine, single PS4 etc) but that ingame you're not going to see pores on Drake's skin or the spines in a fly's wing while the screen is filled with shit blowing up, and that it will be 60fps.' camp.
EightBitNate
Member
So when's the earliest we'll see gameplay? VGX in December?
Haha, Uncharted 4 reveal has caused a lot of mental gymnastics for many doubters. I personally have full faith in anything ND does. they did prove that last gen with Uncharted and TLoU.
ND are in a class above everybody else.
EmptySpace
Banned
why are we even arguing when nd already said there won't be prerendered cut scenes?
That picture had nothing to do with whether or not the cutscene was running in real time and everything to do with how marketing claims work.
Perhaps you should read the post conversation it was a response to
The burger comparison is missing the most important factor. How many Fries Per Serving do you get? 30 or 60?
boredandlazy
Member
Did Naughty Dog make that Big Mac? This isn't Ubisoft.
PR Big Mac
Real Big Mac.
Marketing & PR people (whom would have written 'Captured on PS3' not ND, FWIW) present their products in the best way possible without being legally misleading. That you personally don't like it is neither here nor there legally.
'Captured from/on PS3' is a very vague sentence (and as someone pointed out, there was history as to why a phrase like which simply means 'playing on a PS3 would have marketing value)
'Running in real-time, in engine, on a single PS4 in 1080p at 60fps' is a very, very specific sentence and claim to make. If they were to go on to say 'This is also what the final game will look like' they'd be making a very, very large truth statement that could be legally challenged.
#2 is what I expect.
This level of fidelity at 60 will be present in the real time cutscenes but there will be LoD adjustments for gameplay and depending on camera distance. Shouldn't be too obvious though.
SniperHunter
Banned
The order 1886 uses 4x msaa and still has the odd shader aliasing here and there...and that game runs at 30 fps (probably due to the the msaa)
How come uncharted looks cleaner than the order and still run at double the frame rate
They're still working on a shader aliasing and temporal aliasing for The Order on top of the MSAA.
boredandlazy
Member
You're the one trying to disprove what Naughty Dog have said, so the onus is on you to answer that question.
OccamsLightsaber
Regularly boosts GAF member count to cry about 'right wing gaf' - Voter #3923781
SniperHunter
Banned
I am just saying aa hurts performance. Uncharted 4 looks a bit too clean if you know what I am saying
Naughty Dog has released a lot of games over the years and have not disappointed me yet. The Uncharted games and the Last of Us are probably my favorite PS3 games. I have 100% faith in the company at this point and I'm confident the final Uncharted 4 game will look amazing and probably be around the quality of the trailer. No doubt in my mind at all.
If it was Ubi you'd need to get the fries and soft drink in different restaurants as well.
ProfessorMoran
Member
Those who are using watchdog as an example need to stop because ND aren't a bunch of bait and switch douchebags like ubisoft.
Given this is ND, it's going to be pretty damn close even if it's not identical.
Given this is ND, it's going to be pretty damn close even if it's not identical.
Yeah, honestly. The budget and resources available to Naughty Dog must dwarf RAD. It's the same reason I expect GT7 to look better than Driveclub.
somuchwater
Member
I dunno? Why is it my problem to care? I'm asking why ND would claim with some degree of specificity that it's real-time and in-game engine and then backtrack later? What problem would that solve for them? You're also assuming that in the time since The Order was started, ND and the Ice team et al have made no gains in what they can get out of the PS4 hardware.
I agree but until we see more from the game or more comments from ND we can't really make any rulings one way or the other. I'm taking their words at face value for now. They've set the bar high for themselves, we'll see how close they get next year.
I think it's possible we will see this level of detail in game. Remember God Of War 3/Ascension anyone? I'm still convinced that Kratos is the most detailed character of last gen.
Man...
what are these guys working on?
Exactly.
I can't wait to see what SSM does on PS4.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Not really doubting that they can make it look that good real time on a small scale, there may be something going on like supersampling during in-engine cutscene "character moments" in small interior environments, or some amazing other AA techniques going on that won't be present actually during gameplay. We'll have to see how it goes in the end.
It'll look amazing and we'll have a repeat of this very same thread.
I'm guessing it's some sort of adaptive AA technique that they cranked up on Nate and then DoF'd the rest to hide other flaws.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
One of their projects just got cancelled.
But they're also working on another GodOfWar.
They rehired Cory Barlog to lead a team.
ProfessorMoran
Member
I wonder what Balrog is working on.
Watch the video that was linked a couple pages ago the guy goes into great detail on that.
inpHilltr8r
Member
If they were doing what we did, then they're really just talking about having a pool of 8 PS3 devkits available for rendering movies. Sure you could do it all with 1, but time is money.
We have a tool called the movie maker, that takes a scene in Maya, builds it as game data, renders it using the game engine, and then captures the output. It doesn't run at full frame rate, but like any offline renderer, draws, then captures a frame at a time. We then take those frames, and compress into an mpeg video stream.
We did this primarily to capture scenes that were either too complex to implement in real time (because our in-game cinematics tools sucked), or that didn't fit into the memory available on a retail unit. They are rendered using real game assets though, so that when you cut into them from the game and back, you can't see the joins. Well, unless you know what you're looking for. Like mpeg artifacts, or that the player character doesn't have the DLC costume on.
We did end up doing some loading under them, but that wasn't the original intention. Suspect the same is true of ND.
Thanks! Really useful post.
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