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[mckmas8808]

? what are you talking about? Dreams is Volume Rendering

http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2015/AlexEvans_SIGGRAPH-2015-sml.pdf

Oh HOLD ON! So "this" is why you were saying Media Molecule was Mark Cerny's tech dummies this generation?! So you think Mark is going to take all of the experience and information that MM had from using this tech on the PS4 and help build the PS5 using this knowledge?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Oh HOLD ON! So "this" is why you were saying Media Molecule was Mark Cerny's tech dummies this generation?! So you think Mark is going to take all of the experience and information that MM had from using this tech on the PS4 and help build the PS5 using this knowledge?

There is a strong possibility with this. Also, Gran Turismo Devs had a Ray Tracing panel at GDC as well showing what they are doing with it, and what benefits "for the future".

 

[FranXico]

Anyone who thought MS would go back with Nvidia is delusional.

Nvidia burned their bridges to both MS and Sony. I don't think either of them will partner with Nvidia in console design for a while.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Nvidia burned their bridges to both MS and Sony. I don't think either of them will partner with Nvidia in console design for a while.

Especially not at the price they are charging for their tech. They also do not have an APU solution either.

 

[shark sandwich]

Especially not at the price they are charging for their tech. They also do not have an APU solution either.

? They have Tegra.

 

[DeepEnigma]

? They have Tegra.

Tegra... in a PS5 and next Xbox? That is a step back tech wise.

 

[lynux3]

? They have Tegra.

Tegra is a SoC...

 

[onQ123]

Oh HOLD ON! So "this" is why you were saying Media Molecule was Mark Cerny's tech dummies this generation?! So you think Mark is going to take all of the experience and information that MM had from using this tech on the PS4 and help build the PS5 using this knowledge?

I said that because Mark Cerny told them & some other devs to experiment with compute rendering & they did it & in doing so they got a lot of info that could be used when creating new hardware.

 

[mckmas8808]

I said that because Mark Cerny told them & some other devs to experiment with compute rendering & they did it & in doing so they got a lot of info that could be used when creating new hardware.

This gives me alot of confidence that Sony's 1st party devs will be hitting the ground running when the PS5 does come out then. The amount of forward thinking that those people are doing over there is amazing.

 

[shark sandwich]

Tegra is a SoC...

What exactly is the difference?

Tegra... in a PS5 and next Xbox? That is a step back tech wise.

How so? With a given die size and thermal envelope I believe Nvidia could build a SoC that's just as good performance-wise as AMD could.

I don't think that's going to happen because I don't think Nvidia is interested in low-margin semi custom designs, but tech-wise it's not out of the question at all.

 

[llien]

How so? With a given die size and thermal envelope I believe Nvidia could build a SoC that's just as good performance-wise as AMD could.

This reminds me GAF times when Switch was "expected" to beat XB/PS4, but wait, perhaps even take on PS4 Pro, sensible chuckle.

Chips do not scale like that, performance/watt drops as performance grows, your expectations are simply unrealistic.
Tegra is low perf, low power consumption chip, nvidia doesn't have a solution that would interest Sony/MS and would not be able to match Zen cores for years to come, among other things.

The only realistic alternative, and it would be for PS6, not PS5, could come from Intel, if its GPU efforts yield results.

 

[DeepEnigma]

What exactly is the difference?



How so? With a given die size and thermal envelope I believe Nvidia could build a SoC that's just as good performance-wise as AMD could.

I don't think that's going to happen because I don't think Nvidia is interested in low-margin semi custom designs, but tech-wise it's not out of the question at all.

I agree, tech wise it is not out of the question, just not with the Tegra platform. They are also way too expensive and as you said, they have no interest. They currently have the desktop market by the balls.

 

[shark sandwich]

This reminds me GAF times when Switch was "expected" to beat XB/PS4, but wait, perhaps even take on PS4 Pro, sensible chuckle.

Chips do not scale like that, performance/watt drops as performance grows, your expectations are simply unrealistic.
Tegra is low perf, low power consumption chip, nvidia doesn't have a solution that would interest Sony/MS and would not be able to match Zen cores for years to come, among other things.

The only realistic alternative, and it would be for PS6, not PS5, could come from Intel, if its GPU efforts yield results.

What exactly do you think is so magical about Navi GPU architecture/Zen CPU that makes them THE optimal design in terms of perf/watt or perf/mm^2?

 

[llien]

What exactly do you think is so magical about Navi GPU architecture/Zen CPU that makes them THE optimal design in terms of perf/watt or perf/mm^2?

First, I was commenting on the "Tegra consumes little, so let me extrapolate" - you can't extrapolate, higher perf, higher power/perf.

Look closer at 480 and 580. These cards can consume WAY LESS, if downclocked/volted, but were pushed since AMD needed 10-15% more perf. That's not how stuff works inside consoles, there is no push to chase x% at all costs.

Look at 580 vs 1060 benchmark results. 580 is faster in most reviews. Die size is also within 10%/

Last but not least, there is literally nothing that nvidia could create to match Zen cores.

 

[shark sandwich]

First, I was commenting on the "Tegra consumes little, so let me extrapolate" - you can't extrapolate, higher perf, higher power/perf.

Look closer at 480 and 580. These cards can consume WAY LESS, if downclocked/volted, but were pushed since AMD needed 10-15% more perf. That's not how stuff works inside consoles, there is no push to chase x% at all costs.

Look at 580 vs 1060 benchmark results. 580 is faster in most reviews. Die size is also within 10%/

Last but not least, there is literally nothing that nvidia could create to match Zen cores.

Not extrapolating from Tegra, just going by what we know about their GPU architecture.

Every comparison I have seen shows Pascal/Turing architectures destroying Polaris/Vega in performance/watt across the board. Even 2080 Ti uses less power than Vega 64.

Maybe Navi 7nm will be a different story but judging by what they have right now, Nvidia's GPU arch is probably better suited for a console than anything AMD has.

On the CPU side, you're right that Nvidia probably can't match Zen in terms of performance. But certainly a Cortex A76 or possibly Nvidia's custom Arm architecture would make a fine choice for a console, where cheap/good enough performance/great perf per watt/small die size are all major concerns.

Anyway it's all hypothetical as I don't think Nvidia has any interest in pursuing that market. But to claim that Nvidia just doesn't have the tech suitable for a console is laughable and reeks of fanboyism.

 

[mckmas8808]

Anyway it's all hypothetical as I don't think Nvidia has any interest in pursuing that market. But to claim that Nvidia just doesn't have the tech suitable for a console is laughable and reeks of fanboyism.

It reeks of reality.

 

[llien]

destroying Polaris/Vega in performance/watt

Power consumption of a chip overclocked beyond reasonable thresholds (Vega LC in particular) to win 2-3% of performance is not indicative of perf/watt in consoles... AT ALL.

PS4 PRO:

• 75W when on the menu with a game installing from disc
• 71W when downloading with no disc
• 58W in rest mode
• Project cars without patch 104W
• Infamous First Light 4K 155W

Gamespot

150 W is half of what a system with 1070 consumes under load in games. Idle mode figures match.
"GPU alone" measurements of techpowerup show 1060 (typical gaming) at 116W. GPU inside Pro is at 1060 levels of performance. (480 is shown as 163W, hardly a night and day difference of 47W anyhow)

But to claim that Nvidia just doesn't have the tech suitable for a console is laughable and reeks of fanboyism.

Oh boy... There is nothing serious that nvidia can offer on CPU front, as stated more than once in this very thread.

 

[shark sandwich]

Power consumption of a chip overclocked beyond reasonable thresholds (Vega LC in particular) to win 2-3% of performance is not indicative of perf/watt in consoles... AT ALL.

PS4 PRO:

• 75W when on the menu with a game installing from disc
• 71W when downloading with no disc
• 58W in rest mode
• Project cars without patch 104W
• Infamous First Light 4K 155W

Gamespot

150 W is half of what a system with 1070 consumes under load in games. Idle mode figures match.
"GPU alone" measurements of techpowerup show 1060 (typical gaming) at 116W. GPU inside Pro is at 1060 levels of performance. (480 is shown as 163W, hardly a night and day difference of 47W anyhow)

Those aren't apples-to-apples comparisons.

Go look at any review of RX570/RX580 (Polaris) or Vega 56/Vega 64 (Vega). All of them consume significantly more power than a performance-equivalent Nvidia card.

Those hoping for >=1080 Ti performance in PS5 better pray Navi is a kickass architecture, because even with 7nm's promised 55% power reduction, Vega architecture would probably still consume too much power to be viable in a console.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11278/amd-radeon-rx-580-rx-570-review/16
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11717/the-amd-radeon-rx-vega-64-and-56-review/19

 

[llien]

Go look at any review of RX570/RX580 (Polaris) or Vega 56/Vega 64 (Vega). All of them consume significantly more power than a performance-equivalent Nvidia card.

I've literally mentioned figures for 480 vs 1060 in my previous post.

Those hoping for >=1080 Ti performance

Are not being realistic. 1070 is a given, 1080 levels are likely. 1080Ti levels are very unlikely.

Vega architecture would probably still consume too much power to be viable in a console.

It looks like you are either not reading or not understanding what your opponent is saying... =(

 

[SonGoku]

On the CPU side, you're right that Nvidia probably can't match Zen in terms of performance. But certainly a Cortex A76 or possibly Nvidia's custom Arm architecture would make a fine choice for a console, where cheap/good enough performance/great perf per watt/small die size are all major concerns.

For PS4/XBONE and Switch 2 sure but it has laughable performance compared to Zen, thats problem #1 Ryzen is much better suited for the target spec of ps5 and xbox2
Yes nvdia is "capable" of delivering a just as good if not better console gpu, problem is that they don't care about low console margins, they also wont bother making customizations tailored for consoles. The consequence of this is twofold:

1. They will provide outdated left over, overpriced GPU tech (Tegra X1 ) where optimization means gutting parts giving you an even inferior product to the already outdated GPU ( GTX 7800GTX vs RSX)
2. IF they bother putting actual competent tech in there (original Xbox), it will be for margins out of the console market league, such that the console will hemorrhage money during most of the generation.

They got no incentive to care or change this attitude. AMD on the other hand has a history of putting the latest and even future tech on consoles via customizations at reasonable prices

 

[shark sandwich]

For PS4/XBONE and Switch 2 sure but it has laughable performance compared to Zen, thats problem #1 Ryzen is much better suited for the target spec of ps5 and xbox2

ARM is claiming 90% of Intel Skylake IPC at less than 1/3 the die size for Cortex A76. (Not a great comparison because different process modes, but impressive nonetheless) That's not "laughable".

No it's not going to beat Zen in raw performance, but I'd be willing to bet it will beat Zen in perf/watt and perf/mm^2 easily (which are both arguably more important for a console APU). A76 or whatever the high-end ARM design is at the time would make a fine choice for a console.

Certainly less "laughable" than the freaking AMD Jaguar netbook CPU was in 2013

 

[SonGoku]

ARM is claiming 90% of Intel Skylake IPC at less than 1/3 the die size for Cortex A76. (Not a great comparison because different process modes, but impressive nonetheless) That's not "laughable"

You need to interpret these numbers otherwise its worthless data
I believe this was already addressed to you by another user, but i will rephrase it so you can better understand
Performance per watt/mm^2 and doesn't scale linearly, past a certain limit these mobile chips run into severe disminishing returns, you can't just boost power consumption, increase number of cores and expect linear scaling.

No it's not going to beat Zen in raw performance, but I'd be willing to bet it will beat Zen in perf/watt and perf/mm^2 easily (which are both arguably more important for a console APU). A76 or whatever the high-end ARM design is at the time would make a fine choice for a console.

It would not for a home console where target performance goes way above where these mobile chips perform optimal at 30W vs 150W
You would make a better case for a hybrid console like the switch

A zen 2 core clocked at 3gz+ would absolutely wipe the floor with the A79/Carmel core, Nvidia latest cpu doesn't even beat apples which is actually designed for devices running on battery

Certainly less "laughable" than the freaking AMD Jaguar netbook CPU was in 2013

I would certainly hope so that 2020 mobile cpu to be better than a 2013 netbook cpu
Funny you mention jaguar considering than an arm core would be just as limiting to a potential 12+TF console in 2020 as the jaguar was to PS4 in 2013

 

[DemonCleaner]

people need to understand that AMD's efficiency deficit in the pc space mostly comes from shader cores running lots and lots of idle circles while they have to be kept under current doing it. this is much less a problem in console environments (at least with decent quality software).

real world performance for ps5 will at minimum be somewhere between a 1080 and 1080ti. with vega 64 aquivalent performance in a console you shouldn't have any problem beating a 1080ti in AAA multiplatform titles...

edit: obviously meant AMD not Nvidia in the first sentence. was kinda early today

 

[shark sandwich]

You need to interpret these numbers otherwise its worthless data
I believe this was already addressed to you by another user, but i will rephrase it so you can better understand
Performance per watt/mm^2 and doesn't scale linearly, past a certain limit these mobile chips run into severe disminishing returns, you can't just boost power consumption, increase number of cores and expect linear scaling.

I'm not even extrapolating. Cortex A76 is intended to run at 3 GHz and, according to ARM, gets 90% IPC of Skylake.

A hypothetical 8 core A76 CPU @ 3 GHz or slightly higher would be a fine choice for a console. It's no Zen, but that would still represent a generational leap in CPU performance (in fact it would probably be a bigger % increase than we'll see on the GPU side), while consuming little power and die space.

It's an attractive option for the same reason Jaguar was an attractive option: small, cheap, power efficient, good enough performance.

 

[SonGoku]

I'm not even extrapolating. Cortex A76 is intended to run at 3 GHz and, according to ARM, gets 90% IPC of Skylake.

A hypothetical 8 core A76 CPU @ 3 GHz or slightly higher would be a fine choice for a console. It's no Zen, but that would still represent a generational leap in CPU performance (in fact it would probably be a bigger % increase than we'll see on the GPU side), while consuming little power and die space.

It's an attractive option for the same reason Jaguar was an attractive option: small, cheap, power efficient, good enough performance.

Well according to Arm's own tests, Cortex-A76 (peak performance at frequencies of 3.3GHz) is expected to be on par with Intel's Core i5-7300U CPU. A dual core CPU mind you!
Let's see how that fares against the first gen zen octa core entry level
http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-7300U-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-1700/m223355vs3917
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_7_1700-707-vs-intel_core_i5_7300u-684

As expected its no contest, let alone against 3rd gen zen 2 which will end up on consoles

 

[Insane Metal]

Not having a PSX this year pretty much confirms that development is going to PS5 right now.

 

[onQ123]

Not having a PSX this year pretty much confirms that development is going to PS5 right now.

Probably because they are going to have PlayStation Meeting 2019 at the beginning of the year

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Not having a PSX this year pretty much confirms that development is going to PS5 right now.

I'll admit being in the UK I haven't followed PSX as closely as all the other events of the year but my assumption is that it is a PlayStation-Con that has a lot of panels and where PS fans can play newest games just released or about to release, or meet the dev team heads etc.

So now that it is confirmed to not be happening has me slightly confused as to my mind it should be something that can take place irrespective of anything else. Certainly I don't see it has a go to place to announce future games like E3.

 

[onQ123]

Just a patent but they mention 8K video format

 

[mckmas8808]

Just a patent but they mention 8K video format

OH GOD! We do not want this!

 

[demigod]

Incoming 30fps again.

 

[Shai-Tan]

We are many years away from games in 8k. It only makes sense for video on very big televisions. Right now nothing in movies or tv is even shot at 8k - only 6k if lucky and it's always reduced for editing and sfx. So when 8k tv hit the market at a reasonable price (years from now) it will be just like 4k for the first few years where it's all demos, nature programming, etc

If you have a big enough tv you can see how 4k is lacking in detail but unlike 4k it's only for very large televisions so uptake on 8k will be very very slow.

 

[hollowcupra]

I believe BC will also play a major role in the choice of architecture.

Sony will want to keep PS4 library at the early stages of PS5, because let's face it, PS4 was really successfull and allowing PS4 library to run without (or minimal) effort on PS5 will increase their sales and keep clients happy. I suppose the same thing is on MS's mind. Changing architectures will probaply cause problems on that front.

Though i'm not very technical savvy so i might be wrong.

 

[onQ123]

OH GOD! We do not want this!

That's for video , why wouldn't you want 8k video? Glasses free 3D & VR video where you can peek around the scene.

 

[dolabla]

So will PS3 BC be possible given the Cell?

PS2 should be pretty easy, right?

Man, I really want that all in one machine for the whole PlayStation library. That would be so amazing.

 

[Armorian]

So will PS3 BC be possible given the Cell?

PS2 should be pretty easy, right?

Man, I really want that all in one machine for the whole PlayStation library. That would be so amazing.

PSX - it's obvious
PS2 - PS3 HAVE software emulator that plays most PS2 games (only in CFW of course ), PS4 too but Sony don't give a fuck.
PS3 - impossible on PS4 but i think PS5 can do it. PC emulator is far inferior to what Sony could do (with their ducumentation) yet it can play (certain amount of) games at full speed, SC5 with vulcan renderer runs great in 4K on my 2600K@4.5 (and Ryzens are better than that)
PS4 - it will be there day 1, all other above most likely won't (ever)

 

[mckmas8808]

That's for video , why wouldn't you want 8k video? Glasses free 3D & VR video where you can peek around the scene.

I'd like content to be created in 4K first. It feels like we just stated getting that last year.

 

[dolabla]

PSX - it's obvious
PS2 - PS3 HAVE software emulator that plays most PS2 games (only in CFW of course ), PS4 too but Sony don't give a fuck.
PS3 - impossible on PS4 but i think PS5 can do it. PC emulator is far inferior to what Sony could do (with their ducumentation) yet it can play (certain amount of) games at full speed, SC5 with vulcan renderer runs great in 4K on my 2600K@4.5 (and Ryzens are better than that)
PS4 - it will be there day 1, all other above most likely won't (ever)

Heck, didn't the early 80gb PS3's have PS2 BC through official emulation?

I will absolutely freak if the PS5 can play PS3 games. I really hope it is possible.

Sony really has an opportunity to build an amazing machine if they can pull off that all in one system.

 

[Valonquar]

Anyone that thinks Sony or MS will include BC in next gen's systems is smoking something. Half the insane profits from this gen have been from low effort "HD" re-releases.

 

[Armorian]

Heck, didn't the early 80gb PS3's have PS2 BC through official emulation?

I will absolutely freak if the PS5 can play PS3 games. I really hope it is possible.

Sony really has an opportunity to build an amazing machine if they can pull off that all in one system.

Yeah, first models had gull HW emulation (60GB US) and partial SW/HW emulation (60GB EU) but later versions had no PS2 elements yet Sony released PS2 classics on PSN Emulator can be unlocked on CFW.

Anyone that thinks Sony or MS will include BC in next gen's systems is smoking something. Half the insane profits from this gen have been from low effort "HD" re-releases.

Do you have any data to back that up?

Think of this: Sony can sell all their PS4 games on PS5 day one and they don't have to spend any money to make ports.

 

[onQ123]

I'd like content to be created in 4K first. It feels like we just stated getting that last year.

In my opinion 4K is more of a stop gap format like 720P for the studios & content creators but 4K is really marketable so it took off a lot better than 720P & even 1080P but I think in a few years we are going to see a big uptake in 8K from studios & broadcasters.

8K will have other benefits like depth , Glasses free 3D , multi point of view video , VR videos

 

[SonGoku]

In my opinion 4K is more of a stop gap format like 720P for the studios & content creators but 4K is really marketable so it took off a lot better than 720P & even 1080P but I think in a few years we are going to see a big uptake in 8K from studios & broadcasters.

8K will have other benefits like depth , Glasses free 3D , multi point of view video , VR videos

Realistically how far away are we from next next gen graphics at 8k 60fps on pc and 30 fps on consoles?
When we add raytracing into the mix, i think that were are minimum 10 years away from that, leaning more into 20 years

You seem well versed on new and future tech so i ask is there a paradigm shift in manufacturing process, sillicon, gpu and vram coming near future that will allow for exponential growth in processing power, memory and bandwidth needed for 8k in games with modern graphics for their time

Yeah, first models had gull HW emulation (60GB US) and partial SW/HW emulation (60GB EU) but later versions had no PS2 elements yet Sony released PS2 classics on PSN Emulator can be unlocked on CFW.

Those PS2 classics that run on ps3 are modified. cfw or not PS3s without any ps2 hardware cant full speed emulate vainilla ps2 games

 

[mckmas8808]

In my opinion 4K is more of a stop gap format like 720P for the studios & content creators but 4K is really marketable so it took off a lot better than 720P & even 1080P but I think in a few years we are going to see a big uptake in 8K from studios & broadcasters.

8K will have other benefits like depth , Glasses free 3D , multi point of view video , VR videos

Okay........hold up! You putting me on game to something that I didn't know. 8K video gives you all of those extra options? What's multi point view of video?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yeah, first models had gull HW emulation (60GB US) and partial SW/HW emulation (60GB EU) but later versions had no PS2 elements yet Sony released PS2 classics on PSN Emulator can be unlocked on CFW.



Do you have any data to back that up?

Think of this: Sony can sell all their PS4 games on PS5 day one and they don't have to spend any money to make ports.

To be fair though, given the success of PS54, I do not see a super mega massive group of new users that never owned a PS4, but that PS5 will capture in the first few months. Still, I would like for my purchases to carry forward and have BC .

 

[bitbydeath]

Anyone that thinks Sony or MS will include BC in next gen's systems is smoking something. Half the insane profits from this gen have been from low effort "HD" re-releases.

It does require effort though.
With BC they could just keep the entire PS4 catalog on the PS5 store without any effort and Sony can continue to entice purchases through sales and whatnot.

 

[Leonidas]

GPU inside Pro is at 1060 levels of performance.

GTX 1060 is much faster than the PS4 Pro GPU.
PS4 Pro has the performance of RX 480 reduced to 911 MHz, that is much lower performance than GTX 1060. GTX 1060 already beats a stock RX 480, it's much faster than RX 480 clocked at 911.

 

[Gargus]

Just a patent but they mention 8K video format

I'd dare say 8k is just there for patent sake and nothing more. They wont waste r&d on 8k seriously, or risk a cost increase. They were smart enough to allow 4k streaming on ps4 but not include the hardware for 4k discs to keep the cost down when at that time 4k discs weren't a major factor. Besides they make electronics so they have to know even true 4k doesnt have a foothold in gaming yet and it wont for a long time yet.

I imagine 8k will be like when we first got 480 which was nice, then 720 which barely had a difference at all and then 1080 was the next noticeable stepup. 8k might benefit people first getting their first real display but people who already have 4k wont get a major bump. Course I might be wrong.

 

[llien]

GTX 1060 is much faster than the PS4 Pro GPU.

1) It is faster, not "much faster".
2) Context of my comment was perf/watt, downclocking to get great perf/watt was exactly what I was referring to as PS4 Pro total power consumption is below what 1060 alone consumes.

 

[mitchman]

What's multi point view of video?

I guess he means multi-angle, meaning some videos allows you to select the viewpoint. Mostly for pr0n. This was part of the DVD standard and only pr0n used it. Gimmick and almost never used.

 

[Toe-Knee]

I guess he means multi-angle, meaning some videos allows you to select the viewpoint. Mostly for pr0n. This was part of the DVD standard and only pr0n used it. Gimmick and almost never used.

Concert dvds used it a lot too.