rnlval
Member
RTX 3070 Ti's BVH4 with 2 triangles x 48 SM is below BVH8 with 2 triangles x 60 CU. NVIDIA RTX A4000 is the 16 GB GA104 variant.
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DF x IGN closest GPU to PS5 pro is an RTX 4070
- Thread starter Bernoulli
- Start date
RTX 3070 Ti's BVH4 with 2 triangles x 48 SM is below BVH8 with 2 triangles x 60 CU. NVIDIA RTX A4000 is the 16 GB GA104 variant.
Bojji
Member
We will have to see it in action. So far AMD RT performance didn't impress...
Much better CPU. GPU is about on par in raw power but lacks DLSS/PSSR (obviously) and will probably be worse in RT.
Free online on PC and multiple storefronts.
I don't get the RAM part but RAM is cheap so whatever. He is mostly right.
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I touched on the 4090 example above, but you're lacking fundamental reasoning here - in order for a CPU bottleneck to be created the GPU first needs to be capable of pushing more frames than the CPU is able to process within a given period of time. To use your Helldivers 2 example (more on this later in the post), this is what that looks like for the 3700x when paied with a 4080 super vs being paired with a 4070:
As you can see, only the 4080 super is able to produce the required number of frames at 1080p in order to create CPU limited scenarios (hence the ladder effect across the chart as we move up through various generations of CPU's), with the 4070 it is GPU limited across the board, even at 1080p.
please watch this:
If short on time watch the section from around 4 minutes to 7 and a half minutes in. No dips to the 40's at 1440p or 4k with a 3700x paired with a 4090, the same with the 3080ti. All of that despite being CPU bound. This is how it scales at 1440p with a 4090:
So unless the PS5 pro were to undergo a complete architectural change (meaning it would no longer be a mid-gen refresh) which would enable a jump to a 7700X or above, then any CPU upgrade they were to slap on the PS5 motherboard would result in insignificant gains. The dips to the 40's on the base PS5 are indicative of a GPU bottleneck rather than a CPU bottleneck based on the following:
Which brings me to my next point:
Consoles are about trade-offs, always have and always will be (in fact the same goes for most people building a PC, particularly those not fortunate enough to just be able to purchase top of the line parts across the board). The increase in performance gained at resolutions of 1440p and above is far greater going from a 2070 super (equivalent) to a 4070 than it is going from a 3700x to a 7700x on the CPU side. Even if you were to attempt to "balance" things by upgrading the 3700x to a 5700x (or equivalent) and only upgrading the GPU to one which is of similar capability to a 4060 (for example) then you are not gaining anything overall and you are using any upgrade budget you have sub-optimally from a performance capability standpoint.
For the CPU to be a major factor (to use the helldivers 2 example again) then you would need to be jumping up to a card that is of similar capability to the 4080 (which just isn't going to happen at sub $1000 prices). See the charts below which illustrate this.
3700x:
5900x:
7700x:
Bullshit tests. I guarantee ps5 will drop to 40-ish in helldivers on jungle planets on harder settings with four players. There is so much physics and interaction with trees falling etc. It kills any cpu but current pc top end
Of course on lower dif single player it will push 250fps. That is irrelevant.
Oh and: Ps5 pro IS unbalanced between gpu and cpu. That is a fact. One is modern, the other 5 years old tech that was not even great then
So paste graphs all you want - it is an unbalanced design - it is probably done that way since compability with ps5 titles is easier and cheaper to guarantee. Still - it is a shame, since it could have been a true upgrade
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hinch7
Member
No ai upscaling, and poor RT performance. At that price you might as well get a 5700X3D. No doubt thats a Gen 3 SSD go for 4 to match and exceed PS5 speeds and a quality B550 motherboard. If you're willing to go second hand a 3080 will be enough. 8GB isn't enough RAM, 16 is minimum. And that PSU is sus. Dont skimp out on PSU, a low quality one can be a potential fire hazard and damage the rest of your components.
You're looking closer at 1100 minimum, imo.
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Bojji
Member
Tests are good but they obviously didn't do them in very CPU intensive place in the game.
rnlval
Member
RDNA 2 and RDNA 3 have BVH4 with 1 triangle RT core design. Path tracing saturation shows 60 CU RX 6800 and RX 7800 to be similar. RDNA 3's RT includes other missing hardware features such as early BVH culling, 1.5X RT instructions in flight (more SRAM), and BVH transverse flags.
I'm working on Sony's 3X RT claim, hence BVH8 with 2 triangles and a 66 percent CU increase. BVH8 with 2 triangles is effectively two BVH4 with 1 triangle super glued together.
It would be stupid on AMD's part if they remain on Turing level BVH4 with 1 triangle RT core design.
ADA's RT core has BVH4 with 4 triangles, hence superior saturated RT processing. Blackwell has its RT core improvements. NVIDIA could superglue two ADA BVH4 with 4 triangles RT cores for its BVH8 implementation.
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kevboard
Member
in Europe you can currently get a PC with a Zen3 CPU and an RTX4070 for around 970€
the PS5 Pro + Disc drive is 930€
the build in that screenshot is pretty bad for the price compared to what you can get if you purely build a gaming PC for current gen games.
a Ryzen 7? not needed. a 5600 is more than enough for current gen and better than the CPUs in consoles.
RX 7700 XT? lol no thanks, get a 4070 or maybe even a used higher end RTX30 series card.
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Bojji
Member
Exactly, Americans have much better price for Pro but for Europeans PC is just makes much more sense. You have almost every game PS5 have (some games are time exclusives) plus Xbox games, emulators (Bloodborne!!!) and millions of native PC games. 4070 will deliver very similar experience but Zen 3 CPU could save frame rate in some games.
RDNA4 launch will show us RT differences in real life. When this thing will launch exactly?
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Msamy
Member
People please stop talking nonsense biggest sony fault here is show pro with cross gen games and didn't show any new games in other hand pro have amazing tech and many new features didn't exist in current AMD graphics cards, like PSSR and advanced ray tracing and if pro gpu have Rdna 4 architecture that means if it have same Teraflops is as 7700 xt gpu it will be more powerful than it, also some suggest that PSSR is rdna 5 feature, so the closest gpu to ps5 pro will be 8700xt which will be pricing around $500~600 considering that alongside 2 tera ssd and other components the pro price is reasonable, but maybe sony should have offered $600 ps5 pro with 1 tera ssd and that will be good, back to my original point sony shit management and marketing decided to show ps5 pro with bull shit cross gen titles which didn't show it's true power they deserve all the hate
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hinch7
Member
Digital Foundry have already done comparison. Their conclusion is that PS5's GPU is more or less on the level as a 6700. Which makes sense because they are very close, specs wise, with a bit of different configuration here and there.
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kevboard
Member
yup. the European price quite literally is now at a point where you basically don't save any money compared to PC anymore.
some people will say "BuT tHE Pc DoEsn'T hAVe a DiSC drIVe, sO thiS isn'T FaIR!"
to which I say that a disc drive is not even remotely an essential part of a PC, but it absolutely is an essential part for many console players that have a library of disc games at home. meanwhile my PC library is all on Steam, GoG... and technically Epic (with their hundreds of free game giveaways over the years)
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Bojji
Member
In the end we have 6700 (Ps5) vs almost 4070 (pro).
I thought that multiple storefronts on PC were annoying many years ago but now I think they are GREAT, there is some competition here.
I have shit ton of free games on EGS and that includes AA and AAA titles and the only game I bought there with my money is AW2. Those games are actually tied to my account instead of paid rentals like on PS+ and GP.
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ChiefDada
Member
hinch7
Member
Maybe. It all depends on RT performance. We can kind of guess its raster performance going by Sony's numbers and a bit of guess work from the specs given.
Also have no idea on PSSR and its affect on performance. Hopefully DF can give us some more insight, seeing at Sony are in touch with them.
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Bojji
Member
Show me where I'm wrong
RT performance will be slightly better than 7700XT at worst and almost 4070 at best. PSSR cost is around that of FSR2.
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Msamy
Member
I am sorry but I write it wrong in my post I mean 7700xt not 6700xt
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
That GPU is not the PS5pro GPU. And using that GPu to represent the PS5pro is just wrong being that it lacks ky features that the PS5pro actually rests all its laurels on. The closest available GPU to the PS5pro, until actual RDNA4 cards come to market, is the 4070. If he used that card, that PC cost would climb to at least $1100.
But that's not the crazy thing about his tweet, you ought to completely ignore such a tweet the second you realize that he seems perfectly fine with an XSX selling for $600 simply because it has 2TB. So technically, he is saying that he doesn't see a better GPU, faster CPU, more bandwidth...etc as being $100 more than that Xbox. And further more, he would not have made that tweet if it was Microsoft that released a Pro console for $700. He probably would be calling itthe best deal in gaming. Oh, and gamepass should also be tacked onto the lifespan of the box lol. so that 2Tb XBX is a $900 console!!!
A more realistic cost assessment of what the PS5pro PC equivalent should cost...
CPU - Ryzen 7 3700x - $180 (you could also use the ryzen 5 3600x which is a 6core/12T CPU and costs $90 but...)
GPU - RTX4070 - $599
RAM - 16GB DDR4 - $30
SSD - 2TB - $150
PSU - 500W - $60
MB - MSI B450 TM Max- $80
KB+M - $30 (cheapest I could find and with the assumption you plan to game using a controller)
DS Controller - $75
Case - - $40 (also the cheapest I could find)
Case Fans - $10 x 3 = $30 (cheapest again, no need for CPU cooler because CPU comes with prism cooler)
OS - Windows 11 - $50 (should be $140 but let's say you get some sort of great deal)
TOTAL - $1304
That is the cheapest it would cost you to build a PS5pro equivalent PC that has everything that you need to play games. You can no doubt do a lot better than that if you shop around for used parts. But if you want to know what a PS5pro equivalent PC will cost, something that will at least match it and maybe exceed it, that's the cost right there.
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hinch7
Member
No need to apologise but I kind of guessed. There isn't that much in it for API's these days in terms of performance. Which is what I was getting at, and that DF has found in their closest approximation of hardware and settings.
Unless you royally mess up like Microsoft has for Windows 11. Best off we wait for some more examples and samples. And more deep dives before we jump to any sort of conclusion(s).
Msamy
Member
I am with you also I am pretty sure with pro gpu new features like advanced rt and PSSR it will be higher in price than current equivalent amd GPUs and I don't expect it's feature equivalent to be less than $500
MatrixReloaded101
Member
That PC is a waste of time.
You will be spending time in the settings menu for new games vs plug and playing with the PS5 pro at upscale 4K/60 fps.
IMO depending on what you plan to play low to mid tier PCs are a waste of time if you want to get the best experience. If all you care about is 60 fps but you don’t mind playing at like 1080p on med settings then this does not apply to you and a low-mid tier PC might be a good fit.
The PC bros really down play convenience and to me that’s the beauty of a high end PC. If you don’t want to have to optimize new games (playing around with settings) to get a great experience low -med tier PCs isn’t going to be a good experience and no one wants to talk about that which is why I think the PS5 pro is actually a good deal.
This is also why “pc bros” keep debating pc vs ps5 pro because this ps5 pro will out perform a lot of their PCs at a lower price. Just look at the most common GPU used on steam lol.
Wolzard
Member
Another brand? How about Sony itself?
PS1, PS2 and PS3 came out about 5, 6 years later. PS4 was scheduled for 2012.
It's only recently that they started making these stupid decisions. The PS4 Pro at least had the excuse of 4K TVs, since Sony itself sell them. Now there is not much excuses, Sony will launch a PS6 in 2028 and players will question whether it is in fact a nextgen console. Write these words.
ap_puff
Banned
You can get really cheap OEM windows keys, but they stop working if you change the hardware too much. They can be had for around $20-30. Regardless as a PC gamer I would advise anyone looking into PC gaming to build a rig that's bare minimum $1200 (using an AMD GPU) and $1500 using an nvidia GPU. Also...never skimp on the power supply. Never. And do yourself a favor and get 32gb ram. For example the minimum video card I'd recommend for a new build is a 4070 Ti Super for the 16GB VRAM. That's gonna run you $800. Everything lower on the stack will either become obsolete too soon due to lack of vram (4060, 4060 Ti base, 4070/super) or just a bad value proposition (4060 Ti 16gb).
EverydayBeast
ChatGPT 0.001
PS5 Pro has been talked about all week, it's strategy is for new console gamers, 2. upgrades, 3. going against the pc crowd and yet through all this xbox gamers aren't saying anything, this is what SONY does, and for various reasons PC Master race is disgusted.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Yeah, but I didn't make that list to show or encourage someone to build that PC. You would have to really know what you are dong to get the most outta that thing... and you would even be cutting things super tight because there isn't that much room in there to upgrade without changing at least one other thing. Eg? Want a better GPU, then you need to upgrade the PSU too.
I was just showing what an as close to the PS5pro spec replica PC would cost. I mean, why would you even buy that CPU when for $40 more you can get the Ryzen7 5700x?
And that list doesn't just show that a PS5pro equivalent PC costs a LOT more than $700, it also shows that even if you were to build a PC, you probably want to spend more than that to get something proper.
ap_puff
Banned
I would recommend AM5 bare minimum for future proof platform support (and PCIE5 compatibility), there's a 7600X3D which is a great intro CPU for not that much more than the 5700X3D. Shit gets expensive fast. It's still worth it, but the generational uplifts are getting worse and more expensive over time, and more and more AMD/intel/nvidia are now chasing the server market rather than end users... shit sucks lately
GHG
Gold Member
Cry all you like, show some data that backs up your claims or don't waste my time. There's also a video in that post as well showing the game being played in all kinds of scenarios with various CPU's including the 3700x paired with both a 4090 and a 3080ti, try watching it.
It's not a fact, it's your feeling, a feeling which you are unable to back up with any data.
I still have my old 3900x lying around along with a 4090, 4080 and an old 2070 super at my disposal, if I'm bored and have excess time at any point in the next 8 weeks I'll do some benchmarks to prove just how wide of the mark this obviously orchestrated narrative is.
Oh, and if you guys want to be more believable, I'd suggest at least switching up the language you're using while doing this nonsense.
For good measure, here's a full 38 minutes of Helldivers 2 gameplay on a 3700x paired with a 4070 at ultra settings, 4k:
Again, no dips to the 40's, even when things get intense. But I guess you'll just cry "bullshit" again while having nothing tangible to prove what you're claiming.
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Depends on your definitions for "obsolete" and "too soon". I think most of those cards will still remain viable for gaming at least for half a decade, especially if you can tolerate medium-high rather than ultra equivalent settings. Just like how, presumably, even games made for the PS5 Pro will still have to be compatible with running on the base PS5 model.
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solidus12
Member
Topher
Identifies as young
Huh?
He is saying since the 7700 XT has 12 GB of VRAM that giving the system 8GB makes sense. Not sure I agree with that since Windows is probably more ram hungry than consoles. I don't know anyone who was building a PS5 Pro equivalent who would only put in 8GB ram. An additional 8GB ain't that much more.
GHG
Gold Member
Huh?
His comment on the RAM is absolute proof these guys don't know what the fuck they are talking about.
Even just 16GB of system ram is pushing it these days.
Funnily enough at 6 minutes 45 seconds in the video below they do a test with 8GB of system RAM and the results speak for themselves:
Absolute clown show from the usual suspects. I don't know how the fuck anyone who is following these guys thinks what they are saying is truthful or logical, but it's happening. Quite remarkable really.
XXL
Gold Member
ap_puff
Banned
"obsolete" and "too soon" meaning the 8gb cards are -already- obsolete considering you aren't going to buy new hardware to want to turn down settings immediately and there's plenty of documented evidence that having insufficient vram will either choke out performance OR destroy image quality. At that point why wouldn't you just get a console, where game companies are guaranteed to cater to you? I really think PC people haven't gamed on a modern console recently, the experience gap has closed significantly. Most of the reason to even go with PC gaming is if you are a dirty pirate, wanna play porn games, or you want all the bells and whistles at 120+fps.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Agreed. But once you start doing that this PC starts costing well over $1500. And this is kinda the crux of building a PC that the majority of the PC folks out there never admit.
Fucking moron.
Yh, that's what he's saying, he is also showing that he has absolutely no idea how PCs work. And why we shouldn't even be posting the shit he says.
Data destined for the VRAM from storage, first gets written to system RAM. And that is in addition to the background tasks that system RAM handles. The rule of thumb is for your system RAM and VRAM to at the very least be the same, and even that will likely bottleneck your GPU, ideally, you want 50-100% more system RAM compared to VRAM.
This can be avoided if the game supports direct storage, which are APis made to fix this very issue.
And that right there is why I never say out loud that I am also a PC gamer. I find it kinda embarrassing how the loudest power and performance zealots on the planet are mostly gaming on hardware not even as powerful as the base PS5. But if you didn't know about this steam stuff... you would think every single one of them owns a 4090. Sheesh.Exactly.
Here is the Aug 2024 Steam Statistics
XXL
Gold Member
100%
I have a gaming PC and love it, but there is a reason why there are sooooo many smaller indie games on PC.
Just go thought the recommended specs of most of the new PC releases.
The "but can it run Crysis meme" didn't come from thin air. 99% of the PCs back then literally couldn't run Crysis. Lol.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
What an absolute moron
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Who in their right mind plays current games with only 8GB of RAM . . .
Anchovie123
Member
Anchovie123
Member
Is this dude retarded? You cant run windows on the GPUs VRAM lmfao
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
It's not nice to make fun of disabled veteran soldiers. colteastwood suffered major head trauma from the console wars of 2006.
PeteBull
Member
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/ only 3 out of top10 most popular gpus got more than 8gb of vram, hell we got 3rd most popular gpu there(almost 4% of steam users) with 4gb vram, and thats data from august =DWho in their right mind plays current games with only 8GB of RAM . . .
I did check few weeks ago and it turned out only 10% of steamusers total got comparable or stronger gpu from what we gonna get in the pr0, rasterwise, if u count in rt capabilities its obviously even lower.
Team Andromeda
Member
Or maybe they're just pandering. I do laugh at Rich saying the best demo of the PS5 Pro he says was real-time ray tracing in GT7, something which Forza already does on a base Series X and with more cars on track too
I was down to the Pro, even told the bird that's what I wanted for Christmas, but at £700 for slightly shaper graphics been well and truly turned off
Codeblew
Member
8GB of PC mem? LOLOLOLOL. Also, didn't put controller price in build even though in picture.
Yeah, 32gb is minimum unless you want to close every other application you have open. I like to fire up games without worrying about closing out all my browser tabs, ide's, vm's, terminals, etc.. My next build will be 64gb minimum.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Pc gaming, you are paying for flexibility. You can play games from storefronts you want, where you want and at the settings you desire. It's a completely bespoke experience and can not and absolutely should not be compared to walled garden gaming of a console where you are getting reemed on every corner from yearly subscription services to, in the case of sony, having your cloud save files be restricted behind a playstation plus membership. That's just a handful of things.
The people in EU and uk are complaining because it's twice the price the ps4 pro was. Without a disk drive and stand.
People complain about pc prising all the time. The difference is that pc gaming has far more benefits outside of the price of admission and it's components than a console does.
Bringing up the disk drive argument is so disingenuous vs pc as a disk drive is the only way you can retain any form of competitive pricing on games with sony. I can shop around and get deals on disk based games and I can trade them in which helps negate some of the damage that yearly subscriptions etc hit me with being in sonys walled garden.
You know all this, but pc works with a variety of accessories ranging from all prices. Components etc
Pricing on games is far cheaper and more readily available from competing sellers.
PC can't be compared with console. There will be those on the side that Sony are providing a great option here and there will be those thinking it's a rip off. The market will show it's true feelings in around 6 months from now.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
7700xt in raster but 4070 in rt. Makes sense. I can't wait to see what AMD have managed to do with raytracing and machine learning.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I'm talking about system memory, since that was the point of the tweet everyone is making fun of.
nnytk
Member
Amen.
PeteBull
Member
8gigs of ram is super unrealistic, ppl would go for 16 or even 32gigs, 8 is unplayable today and was for solid few years, 7700xt is similar in raster but much weaker in rt and upscaling vs what we got in ps5pr0, rtx 4070 is much better match.
so around 1,2k usd is needed.
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Emet_bp
Member
The thing is RT in Forza is verey basic, with only mirror-like reflections, so it's nothing special that this kind of RT runs @ 60fps on Series X. RT in GT7 is way more advanced and demanding.