[MLiD] PS6 Early Specs Leak: AMD RDNA 5, Lower Price than PS5 Pro!
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
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vaibhavpisal
Member
Lol thats a top of the line pc, more than ok.
As for this xbox console, am thinking UI will be exactly the same as Series consoles. With steam opening via apps, into its own store designed by Valve. Probably big tv mode.
Not expecting every store at launch but if they are able to sell a bit, maybe other stores will follow.
Dural
Member
Jaguar Victory
Member
I don't see what's difficult here. If I understand correctly:
Sounds great to me. Now they just need to execute.
- XBOX and AMD create a custom APU that is the next XBOX
- APU will be placed in first party XBOX and can also be leveraged by 3rd party manufacturers
- If your device has this APU, whether first or third party it's officially an XBOX and therefore is fully BC with console games
- XBOX OS wrapper will be either modified to allow different stores within the XBOX UI (Software - most likely outcome) or can launch out to a desktop experience (Software) to move beyond the XBOX OS into a full desktop PC experience. Or both.
- You can still play XBOX PC games on a PC without this custom APU but you won't get the full console backwards compatibility experience (and you'll probably have less anticheat stuff)
Sounds great to me. Now they just need to execute.
MacReady13
Member
Funny that- when their sole focus was consoles, they had the 360 (which was not popular in Japan) yet managed to narrowly lose to the PS3 worldwide in sales. Since then, their messaging has been so fucking pathetic... and they wonder why they lost the console war.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Its xbox.
Loxus
Member
Proelite
Member
FYI, the APUs are made from discrete CPUs and GPUs joined together using TSMC advanced packaging technique.
There will be no more bespoke monolithic APUs going forward for Xbox.
Cons:
Performance of the die size will be 80%. Meaning that a 408mm Magnus die will have equal performance to a 320mm2 monolithic APU.
Pros:
Greater economies of scale.
No upfront R&D costs for console APUs.
More frequent refreshes.
Potentially more PCs that will have Xbox BC, if they have RDNA5 and beyond AMD GPUs.
There will be no more bespoke monolithic APUs going forward for Xbox.
Cons:
Performance of the die size will be 80%. Meaning that a 408mm Magnus die will have equal performance to a 320mm2 monolithic APU.
Pros:
Greater economies of scale.
No upfront R&D costs for console APUs.
More frequent refreshes.
Potentially more PCs that will have Xbox BC, if they have RDNA5 and beyond AMD GPUs.
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Insane Metal
Member
This is really really interesting. Thanks as always.
Fess
Member
But if it's both a PC and a console, in one APU, wouldn't you just run regular Steam on it? And any other PC stores and program, just like a regular PC?
If they need special versions and devs need to release them specifically for this device it'll fail terribly. Devs won't bother.
Neo_game
Member
It could be the PC version of Magnus and from other OEM also making xbox console ? use the same APU but different clock speed and much faster, bigger memory and SSD as well. I agree it will be confusing and people will have to research properly and decided if buying different Xbox is worth it or not. I think MS Xbox will be most affordable but it could also cost 700$ if Sony is going with say 44CU console will be 600$
vaibhavpisal
Member
Am not in the know, it's speculation for now.
But I imagine it will run regular pc versions. With maybe devs creating a settings preset for it that would be optimal. Doubt there will be optimisation like a console version.
pacman4000
Member
Obviously the NextBox won't be subsidized. Not if OEMs will offer alternatives. It will probably start at $999...
The SoC is absolutely custom, it's the AT2 GMD that is re-using standard desktop stuff.
You guys are misunderstanding it. Magnus is used both on the console (Series X 2 or w/e it's called) and also used on OEM PCs (similar to Ryzen 4800S, except this time it's a fully functioning APU with broad support instead of just garbage bin yields sold to irrelevant Chinese OEMs).
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Neo_game
Member
What do you mean $999 ? Xbox PC ? the Xbox console cannot go more than 700$ otherwise it will be DOA.
I do think that ROG version which will be overclocked and not limited to console 220watts it will have bigger form factor, obviously better cooling, faster memory, SSD will cost $999
Radical_3d
Member
There are multiple reasons we've discussed over the multiple years of Phil killing our interest, but among them although not all are:
- The problem are still the games. More now that there are no exclusives.
- The major beneficiary of this movement is an already powerful steam. Sincerely Windows is one Steam OS desktop release from being irrelevant in gaming.
- GamePass is still suicidal. The reason why everything went wrong and not a sustainable business model, specially for the fourth position contender for desktop gaming. Releasing a more powerful hardware isn't going to make game development more affordable.
- This kills one of the few thing going for them: affordability. 30 mill Series is a failure in the race to the crown but it's still 5x times what Steam Deck has sold and a number that most hardware manufacturers would envy.
- The Venn diagram for the box is basically
HeisenbergFX4
People who would want a powerful machine will build a more competent PC and people who want the simplicity of console will flock in mass to more affordable options. Even if said box is subsidiased you can look at the Pro sales to see the relevance of these kind of devices.- The PC with bc compatibility will do nothing to the Xbox ecosystem because of the reasons already mentioned: Steam, custom PCs, etc. Even if this option ends up selling loads among enthusiast will not make enough to improve non Call Of Duty revenue. They are about 1% of the 1% of gamers. And there is still the possibility that they end locked in a Steam OS or launcher since it's basically a PC.
- If MS subsidiase this into a mass market price, loosing loads of money, they will still have about the same market share as the One X and Series X power demonstrated, albeit with less money in the pocket.
The solution was always games. And it's never too late for that, but they are determined in being the worst Netflix idea ever. Phil arrived to Xbox with a lot of games looking interesting in 2014. They show them in E3 and cancelled a bunch of them.
And now he has the balls to complain that for a time he had nothing for the fans other than Forza, Gears and Halo (the Halo story is for another thread). Well no shit, Phil!! You've cancelled everything from collaborations like Scalebound to internal developments. And mismanaged everything else. The "I can't win Sony with machines or exclusives" are the sore looser's excuse. Sony is a shadow of its former self and a good lineup since day one on 2020 would've put them into a PS3 situation. But we will never know. We'll have an enthusiast machine and Halo reboot in PS5 Pro.
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bitbydeath
Member
Are you saying there is no hybrid model?
Two devices, one a PC that plays only PC games, and a console that only plays console games?
I have to say did not expect the next Xbox to be the hot topic of discussion in the PS6 thread of all places, but the disappointing specs of the PS6 leak contributed to that. I honestly don't think those leaks are accurate at least not the final specs, it just wouldn't make sense for the PS6 to have less cus than the PS5 Pro. The backward compatibility approach of the PlayStation consoles relies on using the same number of cus, even if you have more, as was the case with the PS5 and even downclocking the clocks at times to maintain compatibility. Having to work with fewer cus and having ipc and clocks make up for it would add more work and headache than Sony is willing to put in.
Second that paltry amount of bandwidth would be so limiting for the next gen console, I don't see them suddenly going from 256 bit to 164 or what isit ...we literally saw the bandwidth limiting even the ps5pro from reaching the full use of its already paltry compute uplift efficiently, having such a tiny upgrade when facing next gen path traced games is just short sighted.
Finally, the power requirements target is just way too low. We already have the slow die node progression being a real limitation in terms of delivering a real significant uplift in compute and now Sony wants to gimp the console even further by limiting the power consumption to a 100W below the ps5 when their success this gen in competing with the bigger chip of the series X is using higher clocks even with higher power consumption.
Im really hoping that they decided to bump the specs up to reasonable levels especially since its been years since that initial meeting and having a console come out significantly weaker than the xbox 2 years after just isn't a good look for the go to shiny console for the masses. I mean it would be even harder to sell the upgrade from the ps5 to the ps6 with the paltry specs touted. Ps4 to ps5 was a large and robust upgrade in specs and still it was hard to put a real gen on gen difference like before...I'm not sure a lot of consumers will feel the meagre upgrade going from ps5 to ps6 will be worth it especially with the pro out and most games being cross gen but I fear Sony has decided fuck it to pushing hardware and is happy to push safe and lazy 60 fps marginal upgrades like yotei and will design games around the handheld and if so these specs would line up possibly.
Second that paltry amount of bandwidth would be so limiting for the next gen console, I don't see them suddenly going from 256 bit to 164 or what isit ...we literally saw the bandwidth limiting even the ps5pro from reaching the full use of its already paltry compute uplift efficiently, having such a tiny upgrade when facing next gen path traced games is just short sighted.
Finally, the power requirements target is just way too low. We already have the slow die node progression being a real limitation in terms of delivering a real significant uplift in compute and now Sony wants to gimp the console even further by limiting the power consumption to a 100W below the ps5 when their success this gen in competing with the bigger chip of the series X is using higher clocks even with higher power consumption.
Im really hoping that they decided to bump the specs up to reasonable levels especially since its been years since that initial meeting and having a console come out significantly weaker than the xbox 2 years after just isn't a good look for the go to shiny console for the masses. I mean it would be even harder to sell the upgrade from the ps5 to the ps6 with the paltry specs touted. Ps4 to ps5 was a large and robust upgrade in specs and still it was hard to put a real gen on gen difference like before...I'm not sure a lot of consumers will feel the meagre upgrade going from ps5 to ps6 will be worth it especially with the pro out and most games being cross gen but I fear Sony has decided fuck it to pushing hardware and is happy to push safe and lazy 60 fps marginal upgrades like yotei and will design games around the handheld and if so these specs would line up possibly.
Loxus
Member
Did MLiD say earlier that PS6 ray tracing performance is faster than 5080?
I guess 5 to 10x is such a wide range that it may be possible? The pro was allegedly 3x and I'm not sure to what extent it could even be realized, with CPU and bandwidth limitations. It makes sense that the next one would be designed with those bottlenecks minimized.
So Microsoft appears to be focusing on a single, high-end "Magnus" system, one that could even blur the line between traditional consoles and pre-built gaming PCs. Moving away from their failed two tier console approach. This shows with them partnering with Asus with the ROG Xbox Ally.
While Sony may be pursuing a two-console strategy with both a main PS6 and a handheld model, offering different price points or form factors. A strategy that didn't work well for both them (PS Vita) and Microsoft (Series S/X) in the past.
Next-gen is definitely shaping up to be an interesting one for sure.
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viveks86
Member
Because neither the Vita strategy nor the series S/X strategy worked well, I suspect Sony is trying to thread the needle with something in between. Essentially an SDK that is unified so development is easy across devices (unlike Vita), but also not mandatory which caused a lot of development optimization headaches (unlike S/X).
But that may just be wishful thinking on my part.
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
bitbydeath
Member
That's not reading as hybrid either correct?
Edit: Maybe the PC is a hybrid, allowing for console BC, and the console is just a console?
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Proelite
Member
I understand. The SOC itself would still be discrete.
viveks86
Member
If by hybrid, you just mean what games can be played (which is how I define it as well), then both may be hybrids.
I believe there will be limitations, especially BC, but that will likely never be clear until MS puts a damn chart with the features of each.
Not sure if Kepler can answer your question as the hardware isn't where they necessarily differentiate themselves.
May be
HeisenbergFX4
knows more about differences and limitations as his sources seem to be on the business side, but I see no explicit confirmation on what the console can and can't do and what the PC can and can't do. It's all speculation at the moment till someone clearly defines functionality.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I really do not see AMD killing their entire product stack with this all-in-one wonder APU. So I would not be surprised if people are somewhat shocked at the price.
I also think people are overestimating what "Xbox BC" actually is. My thinking it will be some sort of cryptographic function that matches with paired boards to facilitate some form of hardware DRM. It would not surprise me if it uses a custom socket just so MS can maintain some control, because, if you think about it, they still absolutely need to differentiate between an Xbox device, and PC generally.
Think about the optics of how they sell software: They can't just sell a single SKU which is both Xbox and PC unless they want to drop the mask altogether and say all our software going forwards is basically PC software - at which point the Xbox brand is essentially irrelevant. Also if its sold as PC software, then it needs clearly stated system requirements based on not just AMD hardware.
From a marketing standpoint its a fairly tricky proposition, basically they need to maintain an Xbox identity and use the increased compatibility to spread out into the PC space. They cannot just allow people to assume Xbox is PC or else the larger platform will be perceived as swallowing Xbox whole. And they can't allow that if they still will want to license software for their platforms, which is where the real money is!
In simple terms do you think that MS will be happy going from being a platform holder to basically a big publisher with their own PC storefront?
Because those are not the same thing.
I also think people are overestimating what "Xbox BC" actually is. My thinking it will be some sort of cryptographic function that matches with paired boards to facilitate some form of hardware DRM. It would not surprise me if it uses a custom socket just so MS can maintain some control, because, if you think about it, they still absolutely need to differentiate between an Xbox device, and PC generally.
Think about the optics of how they sell software: They can't just sell a single SKU which is both Xbox and PC unless they want to drop the mask altogether and say all our software going forwards is basically PC software - at which point the Xbox brand is essentially irrelevant. Also if its sold as PC software, then it needs clearly stated system requirements based on not just AMD hardware.
From a marketing standpoint its a fairly tricky proposition, basically they need to maintain an Xbox identity and use the increased compatibility to spread out into the PC space. They cannot just allow people to assume Xbox is PC or else the larger platform will be perceived as swallowing Xbox whole. And they can't allow that if they still will want to license software for their platforms, which is where the real money is!
In simple terms do you think that MS will be happy going from being a platform holder to basically a big publisher with their own PC storefront?
Because those are not the same thing.
pacman4000
Member
Wait, what? So it will still be "Windows PC" or "Xbox console"? Two different products/platforms?
So what's different from their current "failed" (30mil reallly isn't a failure) strategy? (other than the extended use of the silicone - but that's just a technical detail)
Why would anyone buy this new Xbox console if no one (not literally) is buying the current Xbox console?
I really thought they would come up with something new instead of doing the same thing over again.
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Loxus
Member
It not being mandatory would make it end up like the Vita as well and being half the PS5's performance isn't going to make it easy for studios that want to push the boundaries of the PS6 either.
PS6 generation being a console and handheld is just boring for me. I want to see better gameplay experience.
I probably said this too many times. A PS Portal 2 with Canis APU as the PS6 out the box controller far more peak my interest than a dedicated handheld.
Having to pause the game to find and look at the map is a big pain. Having the map pinned to the controller screen among other features (chat, hud, inventory, etc.) is the type of stuff I rather see from Sony.
bitbydeath
Member
Agreed. Hopefully it bombs out.
Handhelds aren't as popular as some like to believe, especially now that everyone can play games on their phones.
asdasdasdbb
Member
Free MP
Neo_game
Member
The handheld according to leaks is 15W and 0.5x the PS5. It is completely different market to console. Definitely there will be PS5 games till 2030. So I guess it can play PS5 games at 540P if PS5 runs at 1080P and PS4, older games should be easy 1080P 60fps. But it is will be expensive and niche product, not an PS6mini by any means.
Tobimacoss
Member
MS isn't going to be selling Steam versions. There will need to be Xbox GDK created versions regardless. Xbox will be the front facing default store.
Tobimacoss
Member
Do people buy pre built gaming PCs and gaming laptops with AMD APUs? That's your answer. Find out how many windows devices are sold, how many of them being gaming capable with AMD APUs.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
This is NOT a Series S/X situation at all. First of all the handheld will be playing PS5 versions of games, not PS6. All this tells is that:
PS6 will be running games mostly that will also release in 2 other platforms: PS5 and the handheld (that will be playing PS5 versions of said games).
I think gens are truly dead and next gen crossgen will be a term you all will need to abandon. For most of the PS6 "gen" those games will release on PS5 as well. Even more so than the PS5 era having games releasing on the PS4.
Sony's idea? Have a cheaper household console (PS5), more expensive better console (PS6) and a handheld. The idea? Increase those MAU. It doesn't matter where you play, you will have 3 different ways to play your games, plus through the cloud.
Vita simply have games that never came out anywhere else. Sony is not doing any of that.
Fess
Member
That'll definitely grow their userbase for games.
The risk when doing that though, is that PS5 end up as the lead platform for everyone, including Sony, since it'll be at 120+ million units by then. PS6 will essentially be another version of PS5 Pro.
I think they need to drop PS5 for some big titles. Similar to how Nintendo dropped Switch on Mario Kart World and Donkey Kong Bananza.
demigod
Member
Don't you mean laptops?
pacman4000
Member
No that doesn't answer why anyone would buy the console.
Tobimacoss
Member
Gamepass.
Current Xbox userbase with large libraries will. People who prefer the controllers and ecosystem will.
So let's say the Cloud only users, who buy and Stream via xbox.com/play and are becoming entrenched into the ecosystem, when they might want some hardware, they would be willing to buy the Console, or a different form factor. Like if they need a laptop anyways, buy the Xbox Laptop with the AMD APU.
MS is increasing the Total Addressable Market, by making the devices appealing to both PC and current Console userbase. They could hook up an Xbox PC and Xbox Laptop to TV, sure, but Console will likely be few hundred dollars cheaper than the other form factors, plus not sure if console specific features and policies will apply to all the other form factors. Like Quick Resume and GameSharing.
Keep in mind there are still 50-60 million Xbox Console users. The Xbox One userbase isn't upgrading yet because they can still play current gen games via streaming.
Plus, there's the question still to be answered, if MS will make online multiplayer free and do ad supported tiers instead.
Currently the xCloud leaks show 7 codenames, Jupiter and Uranus moons, for Gamepass tier overhaul.
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saintjules
Gold Member
But does that mean anything if the games aren't looking like a true next-gen experience? All this technical jargon I've experienced last gen didn't amount to anything.
Geek talk or what?
foamdino
Member
Yeah MS are no longer doing R&D in the same fashion as they did before - (what little they actually did in the silicon space is now 100% AMD). MS will continue to define directx as an API and the GPU vendors will aim to make that API perform well on their hw - AMD just have a massive advantage over nvidia with respect to defining the best implementation of that API though.
Interestingly, Sony's collaboration with AMD will yield improvements which will go into XBox cpu+gpu (UDNA/RDNA5+) SoCs going forward - I wonder if there's a licensing agreement that allows this as part of the partnership?
The big winner from all this shake-up is AMD - they get MS locked into essentially stamping all their GPUs with "the default gaming gpu", they get Sony's R&D team working on stuff, they get to place big orders with TSMC (driving the costs of their discrete graphics cards lower).
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nial
Gold Member
Why do people keep saying this? We already know it's going to play PS6 games (maybe all, maybe not all, but PS6 games nonetheless). PS5 games - that support the upcoming low power mode - are through BC, it's not the main focus of the system.
K KeplerL2 Would be great if you could confirm that once again.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Potentially they could land in Magnus depending on when they are completed by and if they end up being useful outside of the PS solution (not always a given).
Another advantage is that your tools for game devs will be ready sooner and you will have an advantage in pushing them as you invented the feature to begin with. Another advantage is that Sony does not need to care about the PC ecosystem software support of their features. For their console devs every console of that generation has all the features the platform defines, on PC the problem is its own advantage: backwards compatibility and abstracted APIs that are harder to change (it is difficult to innovate in the PC ecosystem and get it stuck / get used).
Physiognomonics
Member
The handheld could likely be used as a Portal 2 to play PS6 games. But the rest, the map, was already done on WiiU. It didn't work very well for Nintendo.
But the generations are gone anyways. Just look at the PS5 games that are still PS4 games running at double framerate and better resolution. The biggest games on PS5 also exist on PS4 and Sony does the chunk of their money on those games, not a few games like Astro-bot which are just prestige games (there won't be any prestige games on PS6).
Devs will just continue to make
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pacman4000
Member
Yeah, they seem to try to expand the "Xbox thing" on to other types of hardware but it's a bit disappointing that they don't, as it seems, even try to make the console a bit more desirable. Instead, it just seems like they will make the same thing all over again and hope it will not end up too bad.
foamdino
Member
I can see the advantages for MS: little to no actual hw effort going forward, these are generic IP blocks from AMD glued together on a SoC, so less verification/tape out etc tasks, get some economies of scale while not having to actually make and sell many millions and place large orders, more easily update to a "new" version - same as a PC can be upgraded by sticking in a new GPU on a regular schedule when AMD is ready.
I can see the advantages for Sony: more focused APU, more efficient design, can strip out bits of directx hw they don't care about, can add new IP they developed (like the prior IO complex, tempest audio etc), can make it less power hungry, easier to fit into a smaller form factor etc. They can also work with AMD to push their hw in a more dedicated direction without AMD having to play the middleman between what MS wants and what Sony wants as MS has essentially said "just give us the raw silicon from your GPU" - I guess that Sony will have better time negotiating design choices with AMD now that MS are not also putting their ideas into the mix. I can see there being slow divergence of the silicon over time as Sony can more easily divorce themselves from directx enabled hw if they want to.
For AMD it's an absolute win on every dimension - they've played a blinder. Nvidia only seems to care about AI now so this seems to be working well for everyone.
Tobimacoss
Member
Do you think we could get an Xbox PC or Console with 152 CU AT0 GCD?
Base console with Magnus should simply be called "Xbox" or "Xbox console". Hopefully MS also does an "Xbox Elite" as their Pro variant.
The OEMs could build ones called the "Ultimate Series".
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
So...that handheld will be more expensive than a PS5 currently...damn.
pacman4000
Member
Do you come to that conclusion just because he said it will play PS6 games?
It will probably be rather expensive but that's because the electronics (the SOC, the screen etc) will be rather expensive. Not because it will play [portable versions of] PS6 games.
I wouldn't phrase it like that though. The Portable (or whatever it will be called) will play Portable games. Not PS6 games. In terms of rasterisation load these games will be less demanding than PS5 games. But they will leverage new technology not present in PS5 games, especially ML upscaling.
CPU load remains to be seen but having just 4 cores seems a bit troublesome, I think.
The question is if publishing of PS6 games also will require publishing of a Portable version (i.e. Portable is mandatory). If think (hope) the answer is No. It will just force to many restrictions onto developers. Maybe PS5 games will, in the future, require Portable versions though. Sufficient support has to be secured in some way otherwise they will end up with another Vita (or, dare I say, PSVR2?)
You'd have to ask someone like Tom Henderson for exactly how Sony plans to support the handheld, but I think it's pretty obvious that the handheld is part of the PS6 generation since it's using the same architecture as the main console and also coming out at roughly the same time.
My guess is that the performance target for the PS6 is 4K60 and 1080p30 for the handheld, since that's roughly the difference in CPU and GPU performance.
sncvsrtoip
Member
I hope handheld has 720p screen and target is 480p internal upscaling to 720p using fsr4 ;d
Loxus
Member
MLiD said it'll be a cheap console as well to get PS4 owners to upgrade.
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