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$500 cans on, this is how you dream right - Official Headphone Thread

I think DACs do matter up to a point but I don't know where that point is, $80, $200? I do know it that there isn't nearly enough scientific rigor in audiophile literature-- not a lot of double blind testing, etc.-- to really separate true value from empty marketing.
 
The volume knob is usually only on the amp if you're using Schiit products, but yeah volume all the way up from source and then adjust accordingly on amp

I'm using my NuForce Icon HDP as a DAC for the Lyr 2. It has its own volume nob. I just wanted to know if there is any reason to have it lower than 100% on the DAC's nob. Said differently (because I'm not sure if I'm being clear):

is -

PC @ 100% volume --> Nuforce Icon HDP (as DAC only) @ 100% volume its on dial --> Lyr 2 @ whatever volume the best?

or

PC @ 100% volume --> Nuforce Icon HDP (as DAC only) @ 70% volume its on dial --> Lyr 2 @ whatever volume the better for any reason?
 

nawwafh

Member
Im looking for headphones to use with the ps3,ps4 and pc, portable devices.. Budget $300
Preferably Bluetooth wireless..
Currently using the pulse elites and its perfect for what i want but that build quality is horrendous.. the cups are basically hanging with wires atm..
Wanted to get the PS Gold Headphones but i hear the build quality is also crap..
What other options do i have..?
Im ok with having to use a USB dongle btw..
The a50s arent bluetooth are they?
 

SiDCrAzY

Member
Hello guys, new to this thread.

I'm trying to decide between the Yamaha MT220s, the Audio Technica M50xs, or the Shure SRH840s.

I listen mostly to hard rock/alternative/metal. Not much rap or hip hop. I have heard good things about all of the three above headphones and was wondering if anybody had any input on which of the three they would recommend.
 
Hello guys, new to this thread.

I'm trying to decide between the Yamaha MT220s, the Audio Technica M50xs, or the Shure SRH840s.

I listen mostly to hard rock/alternative/metal. Not much rap or hip hop. I have heard good things about all of the three above headphones and was wondering if anybody had any input on which of the three they would recommend.

M50x.
 

Waikis

Member
1012959_10152969158789512_6829976871535751770_n.jpg


Damn i want. EL8 - both open backed and closed backed models planar magnetics.

Hmm still dont think that this will be a top of the line offering.
 

MoonGred

Member
I'm really liking my SR80s but the sound leaking/isolation is so bad to the point where I find them really hard to use outside of the house. Is this as persistent in the higher end models as well?
 
Hmm still dont think that this will be a top of the line offering.

no chance it will. This is their entry into the portable "affordable" market. Id say they would be around $700 - $800 USD.

I wish they were lower and competed with the Oppo PM3 but it is Audeze in conjunction with BMW design and NASA technology...these things wont be cheap.
 

bedlamite

Member
I'm really liking my SR80s but the sound leaking/isolation is so bad to the point where I find them really hard to use outside of the house. Is this as persistent in the higher end models as well?
You really shouldn't be using any open-backed Grados outside the house. The open-back design is what gives them the nice airy soundstage, which is nice, but yeah, you can't use 'em outdoors.
 

MoonGred

Member
You really shouldn't be using any open-backed Grados outside the house. The open-back design is what gives them the nice airy soundstage, which is nice, but yeah, you can't use 'em outdoors.

Yea, it's a shame. I didn't intend on using them for my commute as I was well aware of the downside of open-back, a tiny bit more isolation would've been nice though.

Think I found what I was looking for. Anyone have any experience with elhooks?

I used to have all my headphones on L hooks, not from a fancy brand though, just picked up a whole bunch from the hardware store and never had any issues with them
 

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
Firstoff sorry, drunk Christmas post.

2nd, that could be fantastic. I am hoping for a new price reference but may be dreaming.
 
Firstoff sorry, drunk Christmas post.

2nd, that could be fantastic. I am hoping for a new price reference but may be dreaming.

what do you mean by new price reference?

For me, i want to know if my colorfly can run these directly. Im thinking to get the following:

C4 > HA2 > PM3
C4 > HA2 > EL8

i think these combinations will both sound amazing.
 

terrible

Banned
They've got a bit of a Sennheiser look going on there. $700 seems nice but it'll probably be more like $1000 in Canada I bet :/
 
wtf new Audeze DAC as well? man these guys are really going hard at CES

"Audeze also announced a USB DAC/class A amp called the Deckard for $699"
 

Waikis

Member
Not a peep from Sennheiser and Jude said in the video that this will be the most talked about announcement this year... /Sadface
 
Meh. The original ZX1 looked better, and cost like half the price. I'm sure this unit won't sound all that better either. FWIW, I'm certain an iPhone 6 could match/better the ZX1 in SQ. These idiotic prices need to stop. (At least the ZX2 has got battery life going for it?)
 
Eh, I'd wait for some form of consensus to form at least. I'm sure they'll be nice but I still remember the epic shit storm that followed the release of the Sony Z7 after Jude asserted that the Z7 was the best sounding Sony can he'd ever heard, which naturally got people thinking, "better than R10?! Better than Qualia?!" And of course there's also Hifiguy and Warren who hyped up the Z5, which sounds utterly disappointing to my ears with some truly wonky tonality. Point is, these guys are kinda paid to say what you wanna hear. Sometimes it really is good, others.... Eh
 

HiResDes

Member
I'm really liking my SR80s but the sound leaking/isolation is so bad to the point where I find them really hard to use outside of the house. Is this as persistent in the higher end models as well?

Buys open headphone...Complains about sound leaking/isolation
 

pj

Banned
My 50 dollar SMSL M2 amp/dac gives a noticeable difference over the onboard audio on my macbook pro. Latest macbook as well. Dacs definitely make a difference. Expectation bias works both ways, show changes when there aren't any and not noticing changes when there are. I don't understand the aggro behind your post, why does it irk you so how people choose to spend their money? :/

I used to believe that headphone cables don't make a difference in terms of sound, but I could hear a difference on my VSonic VSD 3 when upgrading to a silver cable from a stock copper one, so I have changed my stance on that. So it can't all be voodoo. To each their own. My 0.02

My second post clarified that I was talking real dacs, like in AV receivers, not the $0.002 cost per unit crap that goes into a phone or laptop, where space and cost are the primary concerns.

My aggravation comes from the blindness of people for accepting marketing claims at face value. It's not just your money you're wasting, every time someone says a $100 usb cable sounds better than a $5 usb cable, they are contributing to the climate of ignorance that pollutes real discussion of audio equipment.

Imagine if Nvidia and ATI made graphics cards but instead of telling you how many transistors it had or how many polys it could push, they only said it made videogames look better through their secret sauce which makes the colors look more real and vibrant. It's insane the amount of garbage people will swallow with regards to audio equipment simply because it's harder to quantify. People like having hobbies and they like spending money on stuff, so there will never be a shortage of fabricated "weak links" in your "audio chain" that someone is willing to sell you an upgrade to "improve".

The part of your post I bolded is EXACTLY why it's voodoo. You heard it so it must be real? Uh, no. Experiencing a different result without any actual change is the DEFINITION of the placebo effect. I guarantee if you took two identical audio cables, sold one for $100 and sold the other for $500 with fancier packaging, you would get zero complaints because people will hear what they want to hear.

I just did a little googleing and luckily someone has already done what I am too lazy to; compile a list of tests to see if cables/amps and such actually make a difference.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

A few highlights..

34. Blind test of six DACs, Stereomojo

Like the other blind as opposed to ABX tests this one found the cheapest and most expensive DAC in the final, with only a hairs width between the two in terms of sound.

A test of interconnects and speaker cables found that no one could pick out the differences between a series of wires from ‘blister pack $2.50 to $990 speaker cable. All the results were even with approximately 50% going for the cheap and expensive options.

11 - Matrixhifi.com from Spain. ABX test of two systems. June 2006.

Two systems, one cheap (A) with a Sony DVD and Behringer amp (supported on a folding chair) with chepo cables and the other more expensive (B) with Classe, YBA, Wadia and expensive cables and proper stands were hidden behind a sheet and wired to the same speakers.

The results were;
38 persons participated on this test
14 chose the "A" system as the best sounding one
10 chose the "B" system as the best sounding one
14 were not able to hear differences or didn't choose any as the best.

16 - Sean Olive, Director of Acoustic Research Harman Int, blog on The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests 2009

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html

Research using 40 Harman employees and comparing the results of blind vs sighted tests of four loudspeakers. As with the above by fellow Harman director, sighted tests show bias that blind do not.

28. Home Cinema Fr .Com, a French test of interconnects (Google Translator used) May 2005

The cables included ones from Taralabs, VDH, Audioquest and DIY ones. The result was that no one could reliably tell a difference.

368

31. AV Science forum, Observations of a controlled cable test Nov 2007

A blind test between Monster cables and Opus MM, which as far as I can find is $33,000 worth of cable

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184

but the owner of the very high end kit and cables was unable to tell the difference.


There are 50 or so tests on that page and the only one I saw that shows any sort of difference is 70% of people in one group could tell the difference between a $15 cable and a $1000 cable. Y'all should face reality and save your money. Instead of spending money on a new amp or cable or dac, buy more music, donate it to charity, get another hobby, do anything other than gleefully buy and guzzle snake oil time and time again.
 

darkwing

Member
amazing that the DACs don't even matter in the test? the cheapest and the most expensive in the finals? or is it because the cheap one was overperforming?
 

Coreda

Member
I just did a little googleing and luckily someone has already done what I am too lazy to; compile a list of tests to see if cables/amps and such actually make a difference.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

This page is possibly the most useful I've come across that details subjective vs objective audio. Some of the highlights include unsuccessful attempts at ID'ing $1000 cables vs $5 zip cord in double blind tests of audiophile's own listening setups, amongst many other both humorous and insightful points. The author also notes that not all choices are purely objective, people are attracted to form as well as function.
 

pj

Banned
Not many of us here believe in $100 or greater cables...I don't know why you're devoting so much time on the issue.

I have free time at work and it doesn't take a tremendous amount of effort to copy/paste quotes from other forums.

Gaf's audio folks are saner than most, especially in the headphones thread (the audiophile speakers thread used to have a complete loon), but mostly my posts are directed at Phat Michael and anyone who doesn't immediately go "dude you're nuts" when he talks about audiophile crap. I also hope I am presenting lurkers with an alternate (correct) view of reality that will inspire more reasoned buying decisions.

I only do this once every couple years because the annoyance builds up over time
 

pj

Banned
This page is possibly the most useful I've come across that details subjective vs objective audio. Some of the highlights include unsuccessful attempts at ID'ing $1000 cables vs $5 zip cord in double blind tests of audiophile's own listening setups, amongst many other both humorous and insightful points. The author also notes that not all choices are purely objective, people are attracted to form as well as function.

That's a good link, I like this part

BLIND BANNED: The largest headphone forum around, Head-Fi, prohibits the discussion of blind testing in all but one of their 20+ forums. They only, seemingly grudgingly, allow it in the back-of-the-bus Sound Science forum that’s all but ignored by the mainstream. Why? Could it be their many sponsors, say Qables selling iPod cables priced at many times the iPod itself ($1000+ for a 6 inch iPod dock cable!), don’t approve of having their products debunked with blind test results? You won’t see many blind tests in the audiophile magazines or on ad-supported websites. It seems an excellent tool has been strategically marginalized, swept under the rug, and discredited over the last decade by the “industry”. It’s time for more people to start asking why.

Think about it. If you are a cable manufacturer and you know your stuff is better than monster or whatever, why would you not do your own blind testing so you can claim "9 out of 10 audiophiles prefer our cable to X"? The reason is because not only will '9 out of 10' not have a preference, most will not even be able to tell the difference.
 
That's a good link, I like this part



Think about it. If you are a cable manufacturer and you know your stuff is better than monster or whatever, why would you not do your own blind testing so you can claim "9 out of 10 audiophiles prefer our cable to X"? The reason is because not only will '9 out of 10' not have a preference, most will not even be able to tell the difference.

Because "better" is a funny word. What part of it is better? The build quality? It will last 150 years instead of 100 years? I guess that's better? It has better shielding, so there will be less interference in the middle of a geo-magnetic storm or something? Seems better, right? It doesn't need to produce an audible difference in sound quality over the course of an average person's lifespan for it to be "better". It all just depends on your definition of the word
 

Crisco

Banned
Amps definitely matter more because good, noise free, analog parts are expensive and hard to implement. The reason DACs can be so cheap and good these days is because 90% of the heavy lifting is being done in the digital space. The analog part is basically a cheap brick-wall filter that removes the high frequency noise left over from the digital oversampling process.
 

pj

Banned
Because "better" is a funny word. What part of it is better? The build quality? It will last 150 years instead of 100 years? I guess that's better? It has better shielding, so there will be less interference in the middle of a geo-magnetic storm or something? Seems better, right? It doesn't need to produce an audible difference in sound quality over the course of an average person's lifespan for it to be "better". It all just depends on your definition of the word

My hypothetical was rigged because the vast majority of evidence suggests people won't be able to tell a difference to any greater degree than luck. That makes "better" irrelevant.

You're saying a company that makes a $1000 cable can't do a blind test vs. radio shack cable because it may not sound better to everyone? Isn't that their problem? We should just rely on the pamphlet because 'better' is hard to define in a test? How about we define it as "more accurate to the source", or even just "more revealing" and let claimed audiophiles determine that. Reviews always talk about veils being lifted, new details being revealed, etc, with higher end equipment. They should easily be able to say that a cheap amp or cable is inferior to an expensive one in a blind test, no?
 
Not many of us here believe in $100 or greater cables...I don't know why you're devoting so much time on the issue.
I do. And ill keep doing so if it provokes angry and biased/selective responses such as that! :D

Saying that my next speakers will have no cables: the devialet Phantoms.
 
I have free time at work and it doesn't take a tremendous amount of effort to copy/paste quotes from other forums.

Gaf's audio folks are saner than most, especially in the headphones thread (the audiophile speakers thread used to have a complete loon), but mostly my posts are directed at Phat Michael and anyone who doesn't immediately go "dude you're nuts" when he talks about audiophile crap. I also hope I am presenting lurkers with an alternate (correct) view of reality that will inspire more reasoned buying decisions.

I only do this once every couple years because the annoyance builds up over time

My Norne Draug 2 cables are being shipped as we speak for my audeze and Sennheiser sets. $300 each. I'll let you know how they are.
 

pj

Banned
Amps definitely matter more because good, noise free, analog parts are expensive and hard to implement. The reason DACs can be so cheap and good these days is because 90% of the heavy lifting is being done in the digital space. The analog part is basically a cheap brick-wall filter that removes the high frequency noise left over from the digital oversampling process.

Amps only matter if they color the sound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver#Amplifier_modeling

In 1985, Stereophile magazine challenged Bob to copy a Conrad-Johnson Premier Five (the make and model was not named then, but revealed later) amplifier at their offices in New Mexico within 48 hours. The Conrad Johnson amplifier was one of the most highly regarded amplifiers of its day, costing in excess of $12,000.

...

His "motel-room" modified amplifier sound was so similar, Stereophile Magazine editors could not tell the difference between his amplifier and one costing more than $10,000. This amplifier was marketed as the M1.0t for about $400.00.

Carver went on to design the Silver Seven, the most expensive and esoteric conventional amplifier up to that time and duplicated its sound in his M 4.0t and later models which sold for some 1/40th the price (around $600–$1500).

This is the first I've heard of amp cloning but it seems like an interesting business idea.

I don't know as much about headphone amps but I assume the differences between them could be similarly replicated on the cheap.
 

terrible

Banned
I haven't played around with other amp/dac combos enough to truly know first hand how different they can sound so I can't comment on that but one thing that I find to be BS is headphone burn-in. There's always an adjustment period for me when getting new headphones or even switching between headphones I already own but that's my brain causing that, not the actual headphones. Never have my headphones actually changed their sound over time as far as I can tell. My HD650s have always been dark and lush, my DT880s have always been a bit bright and analytical, etc.
 
I have free time at work and it doesn't take a tremendous amount of effort to copy/paste quotes from other forums.

Gaf's audio folks are saner than most, especially in the headphones thread (the audiophile speakers thread used to have a complete loon), but mostly my posts are directed at Phat Michael and anyone who doesn't immediately go "dude you're nuts" when he talks about audiophile crap. I also hope I am presenting lurkers with an alternate (correct) view of reality that will inspire more reasoned buying decisions.

I only do this once every couple years because the annoyance builds up over time
That thread was amazing. So much effort and so much anger to try and sound superior when a bunch of people are enjoying their hobby.

I'll ensure I run each future purchase by you and make sure I don't exceed $500 for any single item.

I'm sure my audeze will sound great with a $99 dac/amp!
 

Crisco

Banned
It's just blows my mind that people think they can hear a difference that precision electronic tools can't detect at all. Your ear isn't that precise a tool folks, and almost all the sound we "perceive" is generated by the DAC in our brains. If expensive cables make things sound better to you, then more power to you. If what you're hearing isn't placebo, then you have super human hearing, so good for you!
 
My hypothetical was rigged because the vast majority of evidence suggests people won't be able to tell a difference to any greater degree than luck. That makes "better" irrelevant.

You're saying a company that makes a $1000 cable can't do a blind test vs. radio shack cable because it may not sound better to everyone? Isn't that their problem? We should just rely on the pamphlet because 'better' is hard to define in a test? How about we define it as "more accurate to the source", or even just "more revealing" and let claimed audiophiles determine that. Reviews always talk about veils being lifted, new details being revealed, etc, with higher end equipment. They should easily be able to say that a cheap amp or cable is inferior to an expensive one in a blind test, no?

I think we're on the same page. I was just making a snarky comment about how the companies know that their products don't produce better sound quality, but they still want to move their product
 

pj

Banned
I do. And ill keep doing so if it provokes angry and biased/selective responses such as that! :D

Saying that my next speakers will have no cables: the devialet Phantoms.

Don't worry you can still replace the internal wiring with platinum core wires, and have the PCB boards custom refabricated with silver trace. That is unless you don't want the best sound possible?

My posts are not angry but frustrated and full of pity for folks like yourself. And they are definitely not biased. I love gear porn photos as much as the next guy. Nothing looks cooler than a krell amp with wires coming out of it that are thicker than my dick. The solid feel and heft of a nice piece of equipment is extremely satisfying. I'd love to buy a new amp for my stereo or a fancy DAC for my headphones. The problem is they just don't make a difference :(

Unless you have a link that rebuts the 40+ blind tests I linked earlier?
 

Crisco

Banned
Amps only matter if they color the sound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver#Amplifier_modeling





This is the first I've heard of amp cloning but it seems like an interesting business idea.

I don't know as much about headphone amps but I assume the differences between them could be similarly replicated on the cheap.

All amps "color" the sound. Anything you do to the signal once it's no longer 1s and 0s "colors" the sound. Sometimes it's done intentionally to produce a certain "house" sound that people like, or it's just because they used low quality op amps, capacitors and filters.

And yeah, Matrix and Yulong have been duping high end DAC/Amp designs for fractions of the cost of the original for years.

http://tamaudio.com/
 
Don't worry you can still replace the internal wiring with platinum core wires, and have the PCB boards custom refabricated with silver trace. That is unless you don't want the best sound possible?

My posts are not angry but frustrated and full of pity for folks like yourself. And they are definitely not biased. I love gear porn photos as much as the next guy. Nothing looks cooler than a krell amp with wires coming out of it that are thicker than my dick. The solid feel and heft of a nice piece of equipment is extremely satisfying. I'd love to buy a new amp for my stereo or a fancy DAC for my headphones. The problem is they just don't make a difference :(

Unless you have a link that rebuts the 40+ blind tests I linked earlier?
I'll trawl Wikipedia and find some if you like.

If you don't hear the difference, then don't buy them.

I plugged my audeze and hd800s into my centrance dacmini, my OPPO amp sounds much better.

This is a hobby and I love it. You consider it a waste of money? Then good for you. Enjoy trying to convince people not to buy things and watch your blood pressure raise.

I don't know why you are so angry at people buying high end products. Sure there are things that are better value for money, but who cares? I want to buy what I want to buy. You don't need to go through every thread and warn people not buy something.
 
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