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(*) Ali Salehi, a rendering engineer at Crytek contrasts the next Gen consoles in interview (Up: Tweets/Article removed)

Have you considered that may be the Cuphead dev team was in need of more financial backing and support in order to fully realize their vision and reached out to MS ?
I bet you know for a fact who reached out to who in this instance too?
Yes, I have. Literally nothing I said disputes that possibility. lmao

All I said was that Cuphead was a game already in development when it went exclusive, which isn't the same scenario originally presented. Why are you defensive here?
 

Dory16

Banned
Yes, I have. Literally nothing I said disputes that possibility. lmao

All I said was that Cuphead was a game already in development when it went exclusive, which isn't the same scenario originally presented. Why are you defensive here?
"MS came along with a big ol' check in exchange for exclusive publishing rights " is more than saying that it went exclusive. Why are you backtracking here?
 
"MS came along with a big ol' check in exchange for exclusive publishing rights " is more than saying that it went exclusive. Why are you backtracking here?
I'm not backtracking. They did.

These are not conflicting statements, oh sensitive one. They were making the game. They needed more money. MS saw an opportunity and invested in exchange for publishing rights. Simple.

EDIT: On god, if your contention is over phrasing I'm gonna laugh.
 
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sircaw

Banned
I’ve seen where this developer may have been fired? Because Xbots were stalking him? These people don’t even play games. If true, fuck this scab of a cult community. Xbox is a dog shit platform with dogshit games, and if we’re being completely honest almost all of their studios are dogshit too. Gears 5 bombed. Bleeding edge is a laughing stock with literally 0 players on steam right now, ori could barely run on the Xbox one x.
If true, Fuck this cult. Fuck Phil, fuck “12”,fuck jez, fuck klobrille, fuck Tim dog, fuck boom stick gaming, fuck resetera mods, fuck Colbert. Fuck the whole cult.

Its a very small minority of people that ruin it for both sides. Overwhelming majority of people don't care about console wars. I suggest you take a break from all of this as this seems to have pushed you over the edge.
 

benjohn

Member
No one is talking about secret sauce, "things we don't see, normally only theorized"....We are talking about actual hardware on the PS5's mainboard.....The Geometry Engine, the cache scrubbers, the coherency units, the expensive DMAC with 12 gates, the 5.5GB/s SSD, the tempest engine's SPU and much more are all real and tangible......No one is talking about any external server boosting PS5's 10.3TF over 3080Ti's, there is no talk here about unlimited power and the highest quality pixels you've ever seen.....One was Koolaid served without ICE, one is a discussion about actual hardware....
Yes the SSD will do something other than boost loadtimes, it's not just Sony saying that, but the devs themselves....Better textures, more varied textures, no stutters in openworld games, much quicker feed off disk to the GPU/MEM/CPU....


Some of these XBOX fans were IV'd to power of the cloud justifications, yet they are so pessimistic towards real hardware silicon on PS5 which are placed there to reduce bottlenecks and the amount of bandwidth used at runtime......It's all consolidated on the console's mainboard, yet they class it as "power of the cloud secret sauce talk, which they used in 2013?", Just downright silly..


I don't think so, quick transitions, zoom ins for supers, better textures upclose, spending all of the budget on the stage and the onstage characters will be more impressive and performant on PS5 architecture.....They will load faster and transition better on the console with the faster subsystems...


I doubt the guy was fired. I see nothing controversial in what he said, he praised both sides for their particular strengths, but just echoed what many of us have concluded since we've been looking at the design and spec differences between the consoles, it's definitely not apples to apples here.....And anybody who made said observations and had the insight to make those distinctions between the two, way before this interview, should be commended tbf …...Yet I find, that Cerny was pretty clear in his deliberations of the console (PS5) and what his vision was for it, so seeing so many devs echoing substantiations of his design's success in the dev world is not surprising in the least bit, As he said he actually spoke to devs at length and he himself s a dev.....I don't know why so many XBOX fans believe they can outmatch Cerny in intelligence or in console design.....Sometimes I wish MS gave Dynamite Cop the reigns as XBOX's chief engineer.....That'd be something I'd love to see him take head on...…..Sigh, maybe the next box.....

Also, if this guy does get fired, it will be because of the widespread kiss of the fatal "butthurting syndrome" as opposed to anything else....In all seriousness, I think it would have more to do with him tearing Windows and DX12 a new asshole, as opposed to his candid take on which console he prefers as a dev....Windows and DX12 spans moreover than consoles and Crytek has been a PC dev and Engine developer way before they attempted foraging on consoles...
one of the fellow posters on BC PM'd Mr. Salehi and asked him if he was fired and he replied " Don't worry"


Wgnrn9x.jpg
 
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Ashoca

Banned
I’ve seen where this developer may have been fired? Because Xbots were stalking him? These people don’t even play games. If true, fuck this scab of a cult community. Xbox is a dog shit platform with dogshit games, and if we’re being completely honest almost all of their studios are dogshit too. Gears 5 bombed. Bleeding edge is a laughing stock with literally 0 players on steam right now, ori could barely run on the Xbox one x.
If true, Fuck this cult. Fuck Phil, fuck “12”,fuck jez, fuck klobrille, fuck Tim dog, fuck boom stick gaming, fuck resetera mods, fuck Colbert. Fuck the whole cult.

not sure if he was fired. and if so, maybe because he embarrassed crytek by spouting so much nonsense? anyway, who cares? lets not talk about him as a person, but what he said.
 

pawel86ck

Banned
Yeah, almost as sad as frantically scouring the internet for obscure development professionals to quote, just to then deify said Dev and triumph said quotes as a new Holy Grail of some hidden PS5 power treasure while repeating the same buzzspins (easier platform, simpler design, more efficient, more balanced, SSD Secret Sauce ala SSD alone will make graphics better by itself, etc) with no logical reasoning behind any of them.
It's so funny how people try to make slower hardware faster thanks to some mysterious secret sauce.



It's like comedy.
 

SonGoku

Member
RDNA 2 is a "Feature Set", not just one technology. That set of features is determined by an engineering window.

Why are you being obtuse? If Sony closed its window on existing features and began development, anything new would not make the cut, some of these may have included VRS, we don't know and I hope it's there for PS5 as well, it's not like I want it to not be there, but their lack of mentioning VRS could indicate that it didn't make it into the PS5 SOC.
RDNA2 is the name of the micro architecture that supports all of the features, there are no half steps its either RDNA2 or its not, VRS wasn't just incorporated into RDNA2 last minute it was part of the design since its inception just like RT & ML. What you are suggesting is RDNA1 based with some RDNA2 features like the PS4Pro's GPU, Polaris based with some Vega features, but we know this isn't the case PS5 is not RDNA1 based its based on RDNA2.

PS5 target was RDNA2, this is set years in advance if they opt out of supporting a specific feature it's not because of time constraints but because it doesn't benefit their design what's more their collaboration with AMD directly influenced AMD roadmap and RDNA2 design.
but their lack of mentioning VRS could indicate that it didn't make it into the PS5 SOC.
or the more realistic outcome: they haven't mentioned it because they haven't discussed GPU capabilities yet which clearly wasn't the focus of the presentation
By that same logic PS4 wouldn't support tessellation because they haven't mentioned it during the PS4 reveal...

Sony & MS have different approaches to their presentations and focus on different points
 
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Dory16

Banned
RDNA2 is the name of the micro architecture that supports all of the features, there are no half steps its either RDNA2 or its not, VRS wasn't just incorporated into RDNA2 last minute it was part of the design since its inception just like RT & ML. What you are suggesting is RDNA1 based with some RDNA2 features like the PS4Pro's GPU, Polaris based with some Vega features, but we know this isn't the case PS5 is not RDNA1 based its based on RDNA2.

PS5 target was RDNA2, this is set years in advance if they opt out of supporting a specific features it's not because of time constraints but because it doesn't benefit their design what's more their collaboration with AMD directly influenced AMD roadmap and RDNA2 design.
Why Sony won't say if they have VRS? I mean that's just as much to brag about as a fast SSD and they have mentioned raytracing. It would have taken Cerny only half a minute during his conference.
 

FranXico

Member
This video is ridiculous. Seems pointless reposting in here because I have yet to see anyone on GAF referring to any sort of secret sauce other than in jest.
Remember, the term "secret sauce" was coined by someone unironically defending the Xbox One in the beginning of this gen.

The most amusing thing here is how so many the same individuals who believed in "secret sauces", "power of the cloud" and "hidden dGPUs" back then are now trying to project their own stupidity onto others.

It's that recurrent theme of their petty and vengeful "roles reversal" fantasy.
 

benjohn

Member
Why Sony won't say if they have VRS? I mean that's just as much to brag about as a fast SSD and they have mentioned raytracing. It would have taken Cerny only half a minute during his conference.
Because Sony doesn't talk about anything nowadays. They're so tight-liped about everything
 

SonGoku

Member
Why Sony won't say if they have VRS? I mean that's just as much to brag about as a fast SSD and they have mentioned raytracing. It would have taken Cerny only half a minute during his conference.
Why would they? it wasn't the focus of their presentation, specifics about GPU will come when they discuss GPU capabilities which they clearly haven't yet. He didn't mention ML either but we know PS5 has it.
Tessellation was arguably a bigger deal in 2013 and he didn't mention it during the PS4 presentation.
 
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sircaw

Banned
Why Sony won't say if they have VRS? I mean that's just as much to brag about as a fast SSD and they have mentioned raytracing. It would have taken Cerny only half a minute during his conference.

Just because Microsoft is blowing their load does not mean Sony have to. There is still at least 6 months before release. Sony could have many things to talk about and are probably saving it closer to launch.
 
Remember, the term "secret sauce" was coined by someone unironically defending the Xbox One in the beginning of this gen.

The most amusing thing here is how so many the same individuals who believed in "secret sauces", "power of the cloud" and "hidden dGPUs" back then are now trying to project their own stupidity onto others.

It's that recurrent theme of their petty and vengeful "roles reversal" fantasy.

The first time I saw the term used for the upcoming gen was thelastword thelastword saying “I can’t wait to see how the SSD Secret Sauce improves graphics,” or something of the like. This was probably a couple months ago. I believe he used the term unironically
 

LordKasual

Banned
Why Sony won't say if they have VRS? I mean that's just as much to brag about as a fast SSD and they have mentioned raytracing. It would have taken Cerny only half a minute during his conference.

Probably because it wasn't much of a priority? They didn't have any actual footage to show so i doubt it would have been worth the timeslot. Other possibility is that they just don't have it.

I've read that VRS is part of the Dx12 API, which Sony doesn't actually use, so they didn't mention it because while the hardware might be capable, there's no API for it until Vulkan adds one. Also to that point, Sony DID mention "Geometry Engine" for Mesh Shading specifically, another thing the RDNA2 GPU in both consoles is capable of. So PS5 might not have it.

However.....if Sony anticipated this and just increased the capability for mesh shading for their "Geometry Engine", then it might not matter too much? Both have the capacity to vastly increase performance situationally.

And honestly, VRS sounds like something that's going to get the most use out of titles that push for Native 4K, which i really hope most PS5 and even XSX titles actively avoid because it's a massive fucking waste of resources IMO...


In a title that upscales to 4K, i feel like VRS would provide less performance benefits compared to mesh shading.
 
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BeardGawd

Banned
Why would they? it wasn't the focus of their presentation, specifics about GPU will come when they discuss GPU capabilities which they clearly haven't yet. He didn't mention ML either but we know PS5 has it.
Tessellation was arguably a bigger deal in 2013 and he didn't mention it during the PS4 presentation.
Yet Cerny quickly responded when asked for confirmation on RT hardware? Yet they won't respond to Digital Foundry when asked about VRS, ML hardware, etc...? Sometimes silence can tell you a lot.

And btw the PS5 is custom RDNA2 which means it can have added features but also removed features. Why would they be removed? Perhaps to make room for their own customizations, less licensing fees, not having the software needed for said feature, there could be any number of reasons.
 

Journey

Banned
RDNA2 is the name of the micro architecture that supports all of the features, there are no half steps its either RDNA2 or its not, VRS wasn't just incorporated into RDNA2 last minute it was part of the design since its inception just like RT & ML. What you are suggesting is RDNA1 based with some RDNA2 features like the PS4Pro's GPU, Polaris based with some Vega features, but we know this isn't the case PS5 is not RDNA1 based its based on RDNA2.

PS5 target was RDNA2, this is set years in advance if they opt out of supporting a specific feature it's not because of time constraints but because it doesn't benefit their design what's more their collaboration with AMD directly influenced AMD roadmap and RDNA2 design.

or the more realistic outcome: they haven't mentioned it because they haven't discussed GPU capabilities yet which clearly wasn't the focus of the presentation
By that same logic PS4 wouldn't support tessellation because they haven't mentioned it during the PS4 reveal...

Sony & MS have different approaches to their presentations and focus on different points


Which is why Sony will never flat out say the GPU is RDNA 2. So you said so yourself, since it only supports some of its features, it is NOT.

tenor.gif



It is a CUSTOM GPU "based" on the RDNA 2 architecture.

Look, maybe at the end of the day it does support VRS, but until there's an official statement, I can only work with facts. We'll find out eventually, but that's just the way I process things, I don't use assumptions as fact, nothing against PS5, I rather it have it as I'm for the games.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
Which is why Sony will never flat out say the GPU is RDNA 2. So you said so yourself, since it only supports some of its features, it is NOT.

tenor.gif



It is a CUSTOM GPU "based" on the RDNA 2 architecture.
Both MS and Sony uses RDNA 2... it is only called "based" because they add things that are not related to RDNA 2.
But all RDNA 2 features are there.

BTW Sony didn't even use the word custom.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
Correct, they both said based, but the difference is MS mentioned VRS and other features that Sony has not. That's our discussion.
That are features of RDNA 2 and not MS.
VRS is done in Geometry Processor that is common in all RDNA 2 based GPU (it is a common feature in others GPUs too).

BTW MS own VRS implementation patent references to Sony's "VRS" patent.
When I said implementation patent is how it is implemented in the API... Sony will have to implement VRS in it own API instead to use MS implementation.
 
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Journey

Banned
That are features of RDNA 2 and not MS.
VRS is done in Geometry Processor that is common in all RDNA 2 based GPU.

BTW MS own VRS implementation patent references to Sony's "VRS" patent.
When I said implementation patent is how it is implemented in the API... Sony will have to implement VRS in it own API instead to use MS implementation.


All I'm saying is that Sony hasn't mentioned the feature for the PS5, I'm not the only one that has pointed this out, I'm not making this shit up, just having a discussion about it.

Why would Sony just remove a feature? well here's some reasoning:

It's no secret that the more logic a GPU has, the hotter it runs, it's why when you shrink a die process it runs cooler allowing even more logic to be added, but what is one major difference between the PS5 GPU and Xbox Series X GPU? You guessed it, its frequency.

It stands to reason that in order for Sony to run its GPU at a staggering 2.23Ghz compared to XSX 1.825Ghz, they may have removed some logic in order to achieve the target frequency. I hope that's not the case, but its a reasonable assumption since there has been no mention of VRS support and agian, I'm not the only person saying it.
 
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CJY

Banned
Remember, the term "secret sauce" was coined by someone unironically defending the Xbox One in the beginning of this gen.

The most amusing thing here is how so many the same individuals who believed in "secret sauces", "power of the cloud" and "hidden dGPUs" back then are now trying to project their own stupidity onto others.

It's that recurrent theme of their petty and vengeful "roles reversal" fantasy.
Yeah, I totally get that and know where the term "secret sauce" comes from and I always found that phrase grotesque.

I don't know why Xbox fans want to remind themselves of the darkest times in their history.

They must be insane trying to project that onto PlayStation fans over a slight lead in GPU compute. I just think anybody talking about "secret sauce" in relation to PS5 are truly damaged from that experience 7 years ago.
 

Journey

Banned
BTW Sony didn't even use the word custom.

Actually, they did:

After confirming that Sony’s PS5 will house “a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA 2 technology,” Cerny added, “if you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console, that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded in producing technology useful in both worlds. It doesn’t mean that we at Sony simply incorporated the PC part into our console.”

What he is really emphasising here, then, is that AMD has worked closely with Sony to ensure that the GPU’s feature set is specifically tailored to the PS5’s needs. Along with reduced power consumption and performance optimisation, this feature set, Cerny says, is what AMD is focusing on.


Boom, right there, the feature set is custom to the PS5's needs, they're not just adding ALL, that would probably be an issue when trying to run the GPU at 2.23Ghz.
 
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raul3d

Member
All I'm saying is that Sony hasn't mentioned the feature for the PS5, I'm not the only one that has pointed this out, I'm not making this shit up, just having a discussion about it.

Why would Sony just remove a feature? well here's some reasoning:

It's no secret that the more logic a GPU has, the hotter it runs, it's why when you shrink a die process it runs cooler allowing even more logic to be added, but what is one major difference between the PS5 GPU and Xbox Series X GPU? You guessed it, its frequency.

It stands to reason that in order for Sony to run its GPU at a staggering 2.23Ghz compared to XSX 1.825Ghz, they may have removed some logic in order to achieve the target frequency. I hope that's not the case, but its a reasonable assumption since there has been no mention of VRS support and agian, I'm not the only person saying it.

I do not understand this kind of reasoning: You are suggesting that Sony takes the RDNA 2 architecture, rips parts of the existing features (which are intended to improve performance) out to safe a few transistors (which would be unused if VRS is not used) in order to clock it’s GPU maginally higher. Since when was not talking about something taken as confirmation that it is not there? Microsoft did not yet talk about AVX2, is the assumption there also that it is not implemented in Series X's CPU?
 

Ashoca

Banned
Actually, they did:




Boom, right there, the feature set is custom to the PS5's needs, they're not just adding ALL, that would probably be an issue when trying to run the GPU at 2.23Ghz.


funny that the even used the word "tailored", that usually means that something is taken away/removed to make it fit
 
This video is ridiculous. Seems pointless reposting in here because I have yet to see anyone on GAF referring to any sort of secret sauce other than in jest.
Also amusing: the comparison of people saying "hey the PS5 will still be weaker but perform better than some think and have its own strengths" with" The Cloud /freeing up extra RAM/a secret second GPU hidden somewhere will allow the Xbox One to perform 4x better than the PS4" from 2013/2014.

Disingenuous at best.
 
That are features of RDNA 2 and not MS.
VRS is done in Geometry Processor that is common in all RDNA 2 based GPU (it is a common feature in others GPUs too).

BTW MS own VRS implementation patent references to Sony's "VRS" patent.
When I said implementation patent is how it is implemented in the API... Sony will have to implement VRS in it own API instead to use MS implementation.

I posted about this recently. You can see Cerny's patent here: https://patents.justia.com/patent/20200005431

The VRS API is patented by MS, but coarse pixel shading/rasterization is not. You will never hear Sony mention the words VRS, but a nearly identical API will be used in PS5 games, just like tiled resources and tessellation was not exclusive to XB1. It's that simple.
 

SonGoku

Member
Then how will you explain GF 16xx GPUs being based on the same Turing architecture as RTX 20xx cards but lacking ray-tracing and deep learning features/capabilities? It's the same architecture, it should have all the features, no?
Features can be removed, in nvidias case to save transistors for cheaper cards, which takes us back to my original comment: why would they remove VRS if it has such a significant impact on performance ? Removing VRS when they already have RT, ML & PS wouldn't save any transistors either.
Cerny quickly responded when asked for confirmation on RT hardware? Yet they won't respond to Digital Foundry when asked about VRS, ML hardware, etc...?
You got a couple of things wrong here
  1. Cerny didn't respond to anyone asking confirmation on RT, they clarified it on the second part of their wired reveal 6 months later
  2. DF was given a one sided interview that covered the same topics as the presentation, they didn't get to ask questions outside the established limits
ML is confirmed even though Cerny didn't mention it, so much for that argument.
And btw the PS5 is custom RDNA2 which means it can have added features but also removed features. Why would they be removed? Perhaps to make room for their own customizations, less licensing fees, not having the software needed for said feature, there could be any number of reasons.
None of the reasons you gave support the "removal" of VRS
and btw this gen Sony custom GPUs had extra features no less, if they remove a feature its because is redundant logic for console that provides no benefits, going by the praises VRS is receiving i think its safe to say it doesn't fit this criteria.
So you said so yourself, since it only supports some of its features, it is NOT.
No i didn't say that. That's your unsubstantiated assumption and yours only
It is a CUSTOM GPU "based" on the RDNA 2 architecture.
Just like the XSX, custom means they add features and specific customizations that lead to more efficient use of resources (minimize bottlenecks)
Fear not, custom is good ;)
Look, maybe at the end of the day it does support VRS, but until there's an official statement, I can only work with facts
Sure, anything can happen in this world including PS5 not supporting VRS however unlikely, it just won't be for the reasons you stated.
Lack of disclosure does not equal absence of something and that's a fact which im sure you'll appreciate considering you only work with facts.
 
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pawel86ck

Banned
I've read the whole thread I think. The XSX GPU is equally as bottlenecked as PS5. What's your point?
That's the thing, both GPUs will share similar architecture and both should be equally bottlenecked, yet some people try to say PS5 has some kind of magic and therefore XSX GPU is way more bottlenecked.

PS5 does a better job there. 10 TFS less bottlenecked may be perfectly comparable to 12 TFs bottlenecked.

So in practise the PS5 is faster than the XBox Series X

A twice as fast SSD with cache scrubbers, coherency engines, on chip ram
Higher GPU clock Geometry engine. Anyone thinking the PS5 wont be a beast is mistaken

PS5: Higher clocks but lesser cores = easier for developers and more peak performance
PS5: One ram pool - Easier for developers

PS5 is at least on par with XSX. Higher frequency, unified memory pool, better software (no windows inherited constraints), less bottlenecks

As far as I see it, a 17% delta in raw compute means diminishing returns, a few extra pixels and frames in some scenarios, not exactly anything revolutionary there, I/O efficiency and fast data transfer + SSD, however, das it.

They thought they had a homerun with 12 > 10 TF but did not anticipate the twice as fast SSD in the PS5 for example.

So PS5 will have less bottlenecks, and it's ultra fast SSD will make XSX obsolete. Yesterday I have even read here on neogaf XSX GPU will be comparable to 8TF GPU because of bottlenecks while PS5 will run at 10TF despite variable clock. Right now I dont even know when people are joking or being serious.
 
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ZywyPL

Banned
So PS5 will have less bottlenecks, and it's ultra fast SSD will make XSX obsolete. Yesterday I have even read here on neogaf XSX GPU will be comparable to 8TF GPU because of bottlenekcs while PS5 will run at 10TF despite variable clock. Right now I dont even know when people are joking or being serious.

Maybe the rumored 4TF Xbox wasn't Lockhart, but Series' X actually usable performance? ;D
 

S0ULZB0URNE

Member
When was the last time ms moneyhatted a game, rise of the tomb raider? I'm sorry but it's Sony that have been the "bribing" devs, and i don't expect them to stop next gen.
Sony doesn't have anywhere near the money MS does.
They would lose the bidding war everytime.
You think Sony paid Activision for exclusive content like MS did during the 360 era?
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
Never said we were but can you refute anyone he said, on a technical level? How many games has Lady Bernkastel worked on? Or you for that matter. He's worked on both systems, everyone has some level of bias but in this case it doesn't dismiss his technical knowledge of game development.
Due to his bias we don't have a clue on if the knowledge he is sharing is fair
 

pawel86ck

Banned
Maybe the rumored 4TF Xbox wasn't Lockhart, but Series' X actually usable performance? ;D
It make sense now. That's probably why MS talk so much about VRS, inline RT, primitive shaders, sampler fedback, because they have something to hide and want distract people from the truth (and the truth is XSX has bottlenecks therefore usable performance is around 4TF).
 
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LordKasual

Banned
Sony doesn't have anywhere near the money MS does.
They would lose the bidding war everytime.
You think Sony paid Activision for exclusive content like MS did during the 360 era?

One thing Sony is objectively better at is soliciting devs to make games for / support them.

Microsoft doesn't need to throw more money at developers, they need a better strategy for involving them entirely.
 
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S0ULZB0URNE

Member
One thing Sony is objectively better at is soliciting devs to make games for / support them.

Microsoft doesn't need to throw more money at developers, they need a better strategy for involving them entirely.
Yeah with the much more popular console incentive being the dangling carrot.

I don't see any other incentive but MS paying to get exclusive*s on it's xb.
 
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