AntonioBanderasXsX
Member
Lmao I've seen everything now
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(*) Ali Salehi, a rendering engineer at Crytek contrasts the next Gen consoles in interview (Up: Tweets/Article removed)
- Thread starter Apollo Helios
- Start date
- Opinion
thelastword
Banned
Lol, could you get the post when I said it, would be great.....The first time I saw the term used for the upcoming gen wasthelastword saying “I can’t wait to see how the SSD Secret Sauce improves graphics,” or something of the like. This was probably a couple months ago. I believe he used the term unironically
yurinka
Member
Everybody knows that SSD means Secret Sauce Disk.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
He's saying that the GPU will almost never be fed enough to use those 12TF... So it's not optimal, and it's implied that they should have spent a bit more resources on other aspects of the machine.
Dural
Member
Yeah, I mean the 2080ti certainly proves that. Nvidia and AMD may as well pack it up, 12tf is even too much for any game to really feed.
itsjustJEFF
Member
Nah dawg, who cares what this guys says, clearly he is bias some how... 12 is higher than 10!
Yall need to stop falling in love with the numbers. Having the "most powerful console" didn't work in the PS3 era, it didn't work in this one either. In the end the numbers do no matter. It didn't matter in the PS3 days. Game after game came out and the PS3 fell behind. The exclusives were beautiful, but so were the 360's! The numbers don't mean squat, it's always been ease of getting that power and.... shockingly, the games!
rnlval
Member
https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gears_of_war_5_pc_graphics_performance_benchmark_review,6.html
Gears 5 with PC Ultra settings at 4K
Scale RX 5700 XT's average 9.6 TFLOPS into XSX's 12.147 TFLOPS and it lands on RTX 2080 class level i.e. 50 fps.
MS has confirmed XSX's' GPU landing on RTX 2080 class GPU for Gear 5 (Unreal Engine 4.x).
Ali Salehi's statement is nonsense.
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ethomaz
Banned
It is not.https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gears_of_war_5_pc_graphics_performance_benchmark_review,6.html
Gears 5 with PC Ultra settings at 4K
Scale RX 5700 XT's average 9.6 TFLOPS into XSX's 12.147 TFLOPS and it lands on RTX 2080 class level i.e. 50 fps.
MS has confirmed XSX's' GPU landing on RTX 2080 class GPU for Gear 5.
Ali Salehi's statement is nonsense.
Your comments is nonsense lol
Like what that weird comparisons even means?
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Forgot to comment on this. This looks awesome. Just curious, some questions:Owning every console won't save you from biased criticism.
This is my reality and I'll still be called an Xbot until the day I die even though my game room is littered with everything. It's unavoidable, the ability to purchase things doesn't make you an objective party.
1. What TV and size?
2. Aside from DC and probably a Saturn, what other systems hooked up to the CRT?
3. That small LCD on the side, what systems? And isn't it cramped or weird playing on a angle? Looks like your main tv stand gets in the way
4. In the glass case, what are those black and white boxes on the second shelf? SNES and EA Sports Genesis games?
5. Immediately yo the left of your brown sofa is a big beige box? What is that?
6. Where did you get those Xbox One cardboard poster things on the wall?
7. Is that Xbox Live neon sign actually on?
rnlval
Member
Gears 5 (Unreal Engine 4.x) is scaling according to XSX's TFLOPS relative to RX 5700 XT's average 9.6 TFLOPS.
Ali Salehi's statement is still nonsense.
Real XSX performance result with Gears 5 vs missing in action Crytek!
Ashoca
Banned
he compares XSX to PS3, which is absolutely nonsense.
Both, PS5 and XSX are based on AMD CPU/GPU. Both are even based on the same RDNA 2.0.
PS3 used freaking Cell, that's why most devs didnt utilize most of PS3s power.
yeah, because PS3 was based on CELL architecture, most multiplatform games look and ran better on xbox 360, because it was way easier to develop games on x360!
For example, red dead redemption looked way better on xbox 360:
But, with XSX and PS5, we do not have this anymore, both are easy to develop for, both are based on AMD CPU/GPU and both are even based on RDNA 2.0! You can NOT compare this to PS3/X360. It's different now.
rnlval
Member
It's BS from PC hating Crytek's employee.
NVIDIA and AMD plans to release larger scale GPUs sometime in H2 2020.
ethomaz
Banned
Ashoca
Banned
It's not true though. Again, XSX and PS5 are not like PS3, its not cell. It's not that difficult to max out those machines. In fact devs already max out PS5 and have trouble to max out CPU/GPU, they even have to throttle back the CPU to ensure a sustained GPU:
Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core.
Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive
Again, XSX is NOT PS3! It will be much easier to max out both consoles now, it will not be like PS3!
Zoro7
Banned
So its not difficult to max out these machines but they cant max out the GPU/CPU. Contradiction? Clearly they cant max out the machine then.
ethomaz
Banned
It is actually true.
I explained before with examples... so
I won’t do again.
He basically is explaining what Cerny said... any gaming developer agree with what he said,
And DF article didn’t said that... Devs choose a profile that downclock the CPU and not that PS5 is doing that lol
The reason that DF explain pretty well is because their engines are made for Jaguar cores so the Zen 2 core can run fine even heavy downclocked so they choose that profile.
I don’t know why people keep spreading that without the full context.
“There's likely more to discover about how boost will influence game design. Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core. It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores. However, this doesn't sound like a boost solution, but rather performance profiles similar to what we've seen on Nintendo Switch. "Regarding locked profiles, we support those on our dev kits, it can be helpful not to have variable clocks when optimising. Released PS5 games always get boosted frequencies so that they can take advantage of the additional power," explains Cerny.”
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Ashoca
Banned
Did I mention XSX there? No, I was only talking about the PS5. The XSX does not have this issue:
The focus has been on the GPU, where Microsoft has delivered 12 teraflops of compute performance via 3328 shaders allocated to 52 compute units (from 56 in total on silicon, four disabled to increase production yield) running at a sustained, locked 1825MHz. Once again, Microsoft stresses the point that frequencies are consistent on all machines, in all environments. There are no boost clocks with Xbox Series X.
Once again, Microsoft stresses the point that frequencies are consistent on all machines, in all environments. There are no boost clocks with Xbox Series X.
Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs
So, yes. on XSX developers can max out CPU/GPU ALL the time, at any condition.
But this is not the case for the PS5:
If the game is doing power-intensive processing for a few frames, then it gets throttled.
Sony's customised version of the AMD RDNA 2 GPU features 36 compute units running at frequencies that are capped at 2.23GHz, effectively delivering 10.28TF of peak compute performance. However, again, while 2.23GHz is the limit and also the typical speed, it can drop lower based on the workloads being demanded of it. PS5 uses a boost clock then.
Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive and https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...s-and-tech-that-deliver-sonys-next-gen-vision
This is unique to PS5, does not apply to XSX.
Anyways, we will see as soon as the games arrive, how they look different on those two.
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Zoro7
Banned
So now you're calling Mark Cerny a liar? Im sure he said max speeds will be available most of the time.
Ashoca
Banned
Liar? Where did I say that? Cerny himself says that it's not sustained at all the time. It's just "most of the time". 50.01% could also be most of the time.
We don't know yet exactly. He was really fluffy. He never mentioned exact numbers here. And he never said how much exactly it can get down.
Again, all I'm and devs to DF are saying is that, you can not max out both CPU/GPU at all the time (sustained).
And this is a fact and it's what Sony and Cerny is saying, in the spec sheet it actually says variable frequencies for CPU and GPU
And yes, according to DF:
Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core.
Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive
So, bring down CPU to make sure GPU is at max speed.
It's a fact, why is it so hard to understand?
Anyway, doesn't really matter. Lets wait for the games, shall we?
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MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
Why are you pretending that Cerny's latest article was not revealed already a week ago clarifying all these matters?Liar? Where did I say that? Cerny himself says that it's not sustained at all the time. It's just "most of the time". 50.01% could also be most of the time.
We don't know yet exactly. He was really fluffy. He never mentioned exact numbers here. And he never said how much exactly it can get down.
Again, all I'm and devs to DF are saying is that, you can not max out both CPU/GPU at all the time (sustained).
And this is a fact and it's what Sony and Cerny is saying, in the spec sheet it actually says variable frequencies for CPU and GPU
And yes, according to DF:
Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core.
Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive
So, bring down CPU to make sure GPU is at max speed.
It's a fact, why is it so hard to understand?
Anyway, doesn't really matter. Lets wait for the games, shall we?
Zoro7
Banned
Liar? Where did I say that? Cerny himself says that it's not sustained at all the time. It's just "most of the time". 50.01% could also be most of the time.
We don't know yet exactly. He was really fluffy. He never mentioned exact numbers here. And he never said how much exactly it can get down.
Again, all I'm and devs to DF are saying is that, you can not max out both CPU/GPU at all the time (sustained).
And this is a fact and it's what Sony and Cerny is saying, in the spec sheet it actually says variable frequencies for CPU and GPU
And yes, according to DF:
Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core.
Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive
So, bring down CPU to make sure GPU is at max speed.
It's a fact, why is it so hard to understand?
Anyway, doesn't really matter. Lets wait for the games, shall we?
You are being wasted on Neogaf. You should be out there working on the next gen consoles.
/end sarcasm.
Ashoca
Banned
You can tell me where I'm wrong though, instead of personally attacking me. I'm just quoting the article.
Huh? That is based on cernys interview from 2nd of April. Did you click on the link?
Here: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive
What's wrong about it? I just quoted the article?
I think what's also is interesting the following quote from Cerny:
"Regarding locked profiles, we support those on our dev kits, it can be helpful not to have variable clocks when optimising. Released PS5 games always get boosted frequencies so that they can take advantage of the additional power," explains Cerny.
So, basically, The games are being designed on the base clock of the console and then it will get boosted on released games.
I wonder what the exact base clock is and when Cerny will tell us this.
Also, wondering how this will affect the game, I mean the game is designed based on the base clock in mind anyways.. Will be very interesting.
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
Concern trolling is the lowest form of forum posting.
EliteSmurf
Member
Why do you always bring up that same quote and then some how forget the most important part of that quote .Liar? Where did I say that? Cerny himself says that it's not sustained at all the time. It's just "most of the time". 50.01% could also be most of the time.
We don't know yet exactly. He was really fluffy. He never mentioned exact numbers here. And he never said how much exactly it can get down.
Again, all I'm and devs to DF are saying is that, you can not max out both CPU/GPU at all the time (sustained).
And this is a fact and it's what Sony and Cerny is saying, in the spec sheet it actually says variable frequencies for CPU and GPU
And yes, according to DF:
Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core.
Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive
So, bring down CPU to make sure GPU is at max speed.
It's a fact, why is it so hard to understand?
Anyway, doesn't really matter. Lets wait for the games, shall we?
"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core. It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores."
Funny how you love writing essays but then forget the vital information its almost like that information goes against the narrative your trying to push
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
Give him a week or two, let him enjoy his concern trolling on GAF before the hammer comes down inevitably.Why do you always bring up that same quote and then some how forget the most important part of that quote .
"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core. It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores."
Funny how you love writing essays but then forget the vital information its almost like that information goes against the narrative your trying to push
Ashoca
Banned
Is there anything else you can do than be concerned about other posters? lol
Concern what? I'm not concerned, just interested. I've never seen a console doing things like that. You can tell me where I'm wrong though and where exactly I'm trolling.
Why do you always bring up that same quote and then some how forget the most important part of that quote .
"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core. It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores."
Funny how you love writing essays but then forget the vital information its almost like that information goes against the narrative your trying to push
Huh? That's actually worse in the future then.
What if the new games need more CPU power? What do the devs do then to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core? They can't throttle back the CPU anymore, because they need the CPU power now with the new games. What are the devs doing then to to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core? Please tell me.
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EliteSmurf
Member
The PS5 can run at full clocks for most of the time . But lets say for example your playing a PS4 backwards compatiable game that doesn't need nowhere near the full CPU power you downclock to save power otherwise your just wasting power on the CPU . I mean its all explained in the article you love quoting .
Anyways I am putting you on ignore as I don't wish to engage with trolls .
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You are interpreting this quote incorrectly. Apparently, current dev kits do not have the hardware block needed to adjust their clocks based on the workload, so developers manually set performance profiles to ensure that the GPU is running at maximum clock during development. According to Cerny, this will not be needed for retail hardware and the both CPU and GPU should automatically run at the capped frequency in these cases.
Should the GPU require more additional power to run at the maximum frequency, the APU can use SmartShift to distribute unused power from the CPU to the GPU, even while the CPU is at maximum clock. Should the GPU need even more power (and the CPU is not taxed), the CPU can downclock. This should all happen automatically.
Elog
Member
I do not understand the current discussion in this thread.
If you compare the graphics and frame rate you get on your Xbox or PS4 with your PC, it is blatantly obvious that you get much more fidelity per Tflop on your console than on your PC. This stems from many sources: Game optimisation, software stack (Windows. DirectX etc on the PC) and various bottlenecks between hardware components. And these bottlenecks are significant - we are not talking small % numbers but massive.
What Cerny is stating is that - according to him - Sony has worked very hard to ensure a minimum of bottlenecks on the PS5 plus a very easy developer environment that allows developers to get all those Tflops on the screen. At the same time MS is stating that they are unifying the MS family of access points to their eco system which means that they are increasing the level of compatibility requirements on the new Xbox (that equals decrease in software stack productivity).
Now - what should we believe? I am not sure myself. Ultimately we will be able to measure and see for ourself. But to state that this type of argument is pure garbage is simply wrong. Bottlenecks plus software productivity are huge factors in what you actually get on your screen - and that can be a much larger factor than the current % difference in Tflops between the two consoles in terms of raw power.
Personally - I am curious how this will play out.
If you compare the graphics and frame rate you get on your Xbox or PS4 with your PC, it is blatantly obvious that you get much more fidelity per Tflop on your console than on your PC. This stems from many sources: Game optimisation, software stack (Windows. DirectX etc on the PC) and various bottlenecks between hardware components. And these bottlenecks are significant - we are not talking small % numbers but massive.
What Cerny is stating is that - according to him - Sony has worked very hard to ensure a minimum of bottlenecks on the PS5 plus a very easy developer environment that allows developers to get all those Tflops on the screen. At the same time MS is stating that they are unifying the MS family of access points to their eco system which means that they are increasing the level of compatibility requirements on the new Xbox (that equals decrease in software stack productivity).
Now - what should we believe? I am not sure myself. Ultimately we will be able to measure and see for ourself. But to state that this type of argument is pure garbage is simply wrong. Bottlenecks plus software productivity are huge factors in what you actually get on your screen - and that can be a much larger factor than the current % difference in Tflops between the two consoles in terms of raw power.
Personally - I am curious how this will play out.
pawel86ck
Banned
"Rnlval" is right because we already know how fast Gears 5 is running on XSX based on what Digital Foundry has told and XSX GPU is clearly much faster than standard 5700XT. On the other hand you had to lie in order to prove your point because in reality games (contrary to what you have said) in higher resolutions are using 2080ti GPU almost fully for entire time (of course with fast CPU and no CPU bottleneck) and not to mention 2080ti is faster than just 20% compared to 2070S in games.
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HaveButOneLife
Banned
The CU's are what interest me the most, that's going to be a significant advantage. Everything else is actually quite small as far as the power difference goes, the RAM and CPU are small differences but the Series X is more powerful in pretty much every aspect besides the SSD.
That doesn’t change anything, it kinda makes it worse. They’re already throttling on last gen games. What happens when they need to fully utilize the CPU for next gen games?Why do you always bring up that same quote and then some how forget the most important part of that quote .
"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core. It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores."
Funny how you love writing essays but then forget the vital information its almost like that information goes against the narrative your trying to push
Handy Fake
Member
... what?
rnlval
Member
Yours is nonsense when MS already confirmed XSX GPU's Gears 5 result already scales to RTX 2080.
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT Review
The AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT is based on AMD's all-new Navi 10 GPU featuring the RDNA architecture. We thoroughly test the card's gaming performance and look at power, heat, noise, overclocking, and clock frequency stability, too, sometimes with surprising results.
https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gears_of_war_5_pc_graphics_performance_benchmark_review,6.html
Gears 5 with PC Ultra settings at 4K
Scale RX 5700 XT's 40 fps with average 9.6 TFLOPS into XSX's 12.147 TFLOPS and it lands on RTX 2080 level results.
RX 5700 XT's 40 fps x 1.25 = 50 fps.
Ali Salehi's statement is nonsense.
Devs said they are already throttling the CPU for last gen games.
When next gen games that push the CPU arrive, they will presumably need that extra CPU power.
So devs will have to optimize differently for PS5 or make sacrifices to deal with the variable clocks.
EliteSmurf
Member
Because last gen games would need nowhere near the full clocks of the PS5s GPU due to the GPU being in PS4s console being very underpowered . So the reason why its downclocked is to save power when you have no reason to push the CPU when last gen games don't even require that much CPU power to run last gen games anyways upscaled or not.
Agnostic2020
Member
This thread in a nutshell 
:
:
sure, but what if there are true nextgen games that push CPU to the highest, games that need a lot of CPU, what happens then to the GPU?
No it clearly says the CPUs are being throttled to ensure a sustained GPU.
Even if the last gen games don’t need the full power from the GPU, presumably eventually next gen games will need full power from both the GPU and CPU.
MadchesterManc
Member
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving. So now games built to use a 1.6Ghz Jaguar CPU are throttling Zen 2 CPU's?
Imagine thinking that code which barely utilises the new CPU core due to the previous gen being so underpowered in comparison is somehow the same as throttling.
EliteSmurf
Member
Yes and Cerny said both CPU and GPU can be at max clocks most of the time.
I’m not making it up, it says it right in the article.
yeah and what do Devs do then though? They can't throttle CPU then anymore, if the game needs full CPU power.. hmm
“Most of the time” means nothing.
It’s based on the power needs of specific games and situations.
Handy Fake
Member
You mean this?
This doesn't really matter though and I think you don't get the point. Even if its running 99.999% at 100% the devs still have to optimise their games based on that.
That is the big issue here. Ali said that its super easy to develop for PS5... but still Devs have to go the extra mile and optimise their games based on this. No other console does that. They never had to do this for console gaming. Now PS5 comes and does this thing.. how is this not a bad thing for developers? How does it not make developing games for PS5 harder?
I suspect the following:
Devs just take the BASE CLOCK and then call it a day.
The base clock where the PS5 can sustain 100% of the time - not most of the time - but 100% of the time. So they can do the same for XSX, which is 100% sustained for everything.
No more work for Dev, no need to optimise for a single platform - same as no multiplatform dev optimised for PS3 cell.
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MadchesterManc
Member
You're just either ignorant or misunderstanding what is said to be honest. Obviously a previous gen system designed around a 1.6Ghz notebook CPU is going to utilise the CPU differently to a desktop class CPU. The CPU isn't being taxed to throttle, it's under utilised
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EliteSmurf
Member
I think Cerny said the clocks going up and down is automatic so devs don't have to do any extra work .
Literally right before that quote it says the CPU was being throttled to ensure max GPU clocks.
I never said the CPU was being taxed. PS5 seemingly works on preemptive throttling of one or the other depending on power needs.
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