This is where the story broke on that.
http://www.gamedev.net/topic/666419-what-are-your-opinions-on-dx12vulkanmantle/#entry5215019
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AMD/NVIDIA market-share graph. Spoiler Alert: it ain't pretty.
- Thread starter Pickles Spill
- Start date
This is where the story broke on that.
http://www.gamedev.net/topic/666419-what-are-your-opinions-on-dx12vulkanmantle/#entry5215019
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
"AMD drivers are shit" is basically a meme at this point. But if the drivers are late, games get benchmarked with old drivers, and that reinforces that narrative. GTA V ran like complete ass on my 780 until I got up on the newest drivers. I don't know if AMD's GTA V drivers are out yet.
dr. apocalipsis
Banned
Those are the type of comparatives I meant. Reading directly from the isolated card instead of the full system. Take into account that a faster card will also make the rest of the system to sweat more.
You can clearly see how the 290x take a massive 64% more power consumption than 970.
I think we are reading the graph in a different way.
G80 and G92 were the Conroe-like holy grail for Nvidia. Then, we have to consider that even when at launch they were superior to HD2000/HD3000, the following drivers updates widened the gap substantially, and that took roots on the consumer mindset. Can you remember those 'Big Bang' drivers? That's it, increasing the value of already sold out products suprisingly led to consumer loyalty. On the other side, ATI refused to offer support for Windows Vista to some very recent series, making them unable to perform any basic function on that OS and followings.
Then Nvidia started to bleed marketshare with the acromegalic GT200 derivative series. They were pushing hard the CUDA and compute stuff making the chip less efficient for pure gaming. ATI kept their old VLIW architecture, much less capable but way more efficient for gaming, and moved to GDDR5 and narrower buses, helping to make cheap beasts such as HD4770. That card sure paid a lot of bills for them. You can clearly see the spike there.
And the last spike you see favouring them is the failed Fermi release. It was enough for the conservative HD5000 series to print money. Many newer cards were way hotter than those GTX470 and GTX480, but the damage was already done.
Then the quickly Fermi refresh, with the star GTX560ti leading the way, stablished a slow but firm growing for Nvidia, with few stops starred by sparse models such as HD 7970 Ghz edition or R9 280.
In my head, it makes sense.
The Cowboy
Member
There was around a 4 month gap just before the last driver release, during this time a number of games came out and ans such there as no crossfire profiles/possible optimizations for any of them.
AMD have said since that 4 month gap that they will try to at least get a beta driver out each month, but so far we've had only 1 as its only been 1 month.
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I myself moved to AMD last year with my R9 280x purchase, its a decent enough card but it really was a surprise to move from a lower level NVidia card with Adaptive Vsync, DRS and seemingly monthly drivers to an AMD card and having none of these and sporadic driver releases - i do think i'll be moving back to NVidia very soon as i really miss the mentioned features and on top of those NVidia inspector (Radeonpro is a poor substitute for that) and shdowplay (again AMDs software for this is a poor substitute).
Beerman462
Member
AMD drivers came out the same day as NVidia. The game ran decent without them, but with them its running great.
Irobot82
Member
Me too. It sucks to see all this happening. I don't understand why they are so late on everything for this series. Usually the two companies are back to back. I'm still running a 7950. When I bought it in 2012 is was in the same price point as a 660ti and that thing was garbage. The 7950 ran about as good as a 670 and I can OC like a beast.
I'm waiting on the node drop before I pick up another ~$300 card. Whoever gives me the best price/perf is who I'm getting.
AMD released their gta driver the day it released.
I'm fairly sure last year driver releases were somewhat monthly too, the only month they didn't release a driver was October.
General Lee
Member
AMD would need a lot of things to go right to be competitive. They might be competitive with purely hardware things like HBM and die size vs. transistors, but at the end of the day sales are made based on brand perception. AMD is a value brand with poor software, it's just not 'cool'. It doesn't matter if they release the same amount of drivers as Nvidia or make faster budget cards and sell them for less. As you can see in this thread, a lot of people have already made up their minds and one faster card is not likely to change it. A halo product certainly helps, but it's just one step. You need to know how to market it, and Nvidia certainly has done a good job at aping Apple on how to make their fans pay more for their products than what they're actually worth. And that's what businesses ultimately strive for. They aren't your friends, they want your money, and Nvidia seems to me a pretty unscrupulous company when it comes to trying to make a buck and half out of their fans. This is perhaps more due to the weakness of AMD than anything Nvidia themselves have done. Sometimes I hope Samsung would buy AMD, but then again I think they'd just dump the PC CPU/GPU business immediately.
Unknown Soldier
Member
There was a time when AMD had surpassed Intel too, during the darkest days of the Pentium 4 era. I had an Athlon 64 in those days, it's still the only AMD CPU I've ever owned.
16nm probably won't be until 2016. Don't believe anyone who says "Die shrink is coming any day now" because they've been saying that for 4 years.
RenegadeXV8
Banned
The unfortunate part about this is that AMD could have gained even more marketshare with the HD 5000 series but they had serious supply issues which meant they couldn't manufacture enough of them to meet demand. I was lucky enough to get a 5850 when it launched, but I remember forum threads full of people who couldn't find one for months.
They can't just will these cards into existence. It takes a lot of time and money, the latter which AMD just can't spare at the moment. Even if the 390X hardware is ready to go, they still need fully functional software for it.
Irobot82
Member
Yeah I know, my 7950 is fine for now, certainly not worth the jump to the 200/900 series. I've always expected the die shrink to come next year.
They aren't willing them into existence. Both AMD and Nvidia are preparing these for next year. What functional software are you talking about?
lol wut? Did you get a crappy reference cooler or something? My 7950 is currently OC'd to 1125 core and 1450 mem and it never goes over 75.
It is a shame Intel managed to destroy their chances at fully realizing their potential. The market might be different today and AMD would have found themselves in a better position. Those P4 moves were really scummy.
Your mistake was going for XFX. Had you gone with just about anyone else, you'd have been fine.
CadetMahoney
Member
Is this true anymore, I always see past AMD owners say bad things about drivers and console fans use this as a reason why PC gaming is "user-unfriendly" to put it mildly. . . who is right?
I have no idea if it's true nowadays, but they have irreparably damaged their reputation for a lot of people, including myself.
Pickles Spill
Member
Again, it's all 'bout them anecdotes, but I personally haven't had any problems. The only problems I have had are when a PC dies and you have to troubleshoot which part died. Also, when you first put together a PC, there are always little problems to work out, but it's smooth sailing after that. It's 100% true that console gaming is easier, but there's only a little bit amount of work to get a PC rig going. Also, I use my PC a lot for doing work so it's a double win that I can play games on it too.
They are not as bad as they used to be, but they are still inferior to nvidia... even if marginal, the disparity is there.
This is an enthusiast market, there is no real NEED for a discreete video card, it is not a comodity. AMD should've understand the value proposition doesn't hold in a market like this.
Wait, were you the same person who sold me the XFX 7870 Core edition here on GAF when I was building my new rig? It's the same card I have right now, and it's serving me well. I never seen the thing go past 60ºC though...
No I'm saying that that's realistically the only way that this trend is getting turned around save some miraculous hail mary from AMD. I also specifically said that that would never happen because consumers will not and should not have to do it. But in the long run it may be advantageous for the consumer base as a whole.
Maybe AMD's fortunes could improve if they picked one chip race to be in and stuck with it. It's clear that fighting this war on two fronts with companies that are significantly larger isn't going well. But they're also the only competition in those spaces so withdrawing from one would be a disaster.
Iacobellis
Junior Member
Did any of the losses incurred during the Red Ring days come out of AMD's pockets?
Get the inferior product, is better for you, as a consumer... wait wuut!?
Pro-consumer internet logic, right there...
I think AMD were primarily aiming for parallel processing which the APUs CAN do..... if shit were coded for that but most things aren't so it is a waste right now.
But having been a past AMD user, I switch to Team Blue/Green and will not look back unless they are able to match/surpass intel or nvidia.
Drivers were a hassle at times and one gpu had to have a firmware update so new drivers could work without bootlooping the system >.>
Unknown Soldier
Member
This is the same problem with CPUs actually. If you're going to go out there and buy a bunch of parts and build your dream gaming PC, you're going to buy the absolute best CPU you can get unless you're truly dirt poor. The problem with only selling value parts like AMD does is that you get in a vicious cycle of only selling low-margin, low-end parts and then you can't afford R&D to develop the next generation of CPUs.
Meanwhile Intel is busy tick-tocking away, and you look up and you're 3-4 years behind and you have no hope of catching up. This is why AMD ultimately abandoned the performance x86 segment, they had no money for R&D, they have no fabs to keep up in process improvements, and they had no markets where anyone wanted to buy their CPUs. So that was the end of the line for them.
yankeeforever2
Member
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts;_ylt=A0LEVj7jRTRVHD4AkkYnnIlQ?s=AMD+Interactive#
It looks really bad for them from the stock side too.
It looks really bad for them from the stock side too.
texhnolyze
Banned
AMD is cheap, that's the main deal for me and other dirt poor people around the world.
My 6 year old Phenom with a 7870 ghz edition combo is still running any game and now GTA V at 60 fps and I'm happy. Not every pc gamer is a max settings at 60 fps enthusiast, people keep forgetting that.
But yeah, I'm thinking of getting that Skylake CPU next year for my upgrade.
My 6 year old Phenom with a 7870 ghz edition combo is still running any game and now GTA V at 60 fps and I'm happy. Not every pc gamer is a max settings at 60 fps enthusiast, people keep forgetting that.
But yeah, I'm thinking of getting that Skylake CPU next year for my upgrade.
Um, a 290x is superior to a 970 and roughly equivalent to a 980. Cheaper than both, by half in the case of the 980. Part of the problem here are the gamers being brainwashed by nvidia's marketing.
They've usually released about a driver a month. but since 14.12 ( omega )
They didn't release anything public until mach 2015, hence the name beta 15.3.
And then beta 15.4 now in april.
I'd say the 4 month wait is the exception to the rule.
Nailed! It's brainwashed gamers fault!
Chubzdoomer
Banned
That's what happens when your competitor consistently delivers a better product with better drivers, features, and more support from developers.
Hell, AMD still doesn't have an answer for PhysX and it's been widely used for how long now? Their GPUs' power consumption is still a joke, too.
Until they step up their game, Nvidia will continue to rise.
Hell, AMD still doesn't have an answer for PhysX and it's been widely used for how long now? Their GPUs' power consumption is still a joke, too.
Until they step up their game, Nvidia will continue to rise.
Well no, it's nvidia's shameless marketing, as seen in the case of the 970, and also the consistent underreporting of power usage at load. But yes, there does seem to be a failure at the feet of the consumer to recognize just how great of a card the 290x is, and a general sense of nvidia ball licking despite nvidia be sheisty.
yeah I'm sure years of AMD miss managment, sub par CPU and GPUs, nonsensical decisions, and talen loss... has nothing to do with it.
it's all about magical nvidia brainwashing.
Case in point.
I don't get the tone of the original post; "ain't pretty", "gee I hope they [AMD] turn things around", etc. Makes it sound like someone died or something! Do people around here have some emotional attachment to AMD or something that I'm unaware of?
AMD is just another company. If Nvidia is making the better products-- which I think they are at the moment-- then I'm glad they are making more money, which will give them further investment to plow into doing more of what they are doing well. That should be a thing to celebrate.
AMD is just another company. If Nvidia is making the better products-- which I think they are at the moment-- then I'm glad they are making more money, which will give them further investment to plow into doing more of what they are doing well. That should be a thing to celebrate.
Pickles Spill
Member
Monopolies aren't a thing to celebrate. Monopolies are bad for consumers, and if AMD isn't doing well, it'll let NVIDIA become a monopoly.
Also, AMD is caught in a vicious cycle were the don't have enough money to innovate, which leads to not as great products, which leads to less money to innovate ...
I'm disappointed in the situation AMD is caught in now, since they really don't have the money to catch up.
Maybe get informed, I mean unless you are in the whole "I'm gonna talk out of my ass".
The rise and fall of AMD: How an underdog stuck it to Intel
Pretty in deep article about what the hell happend to AMD, disclaimer I used to be a huge AMD fan back in the early 2000's I followed that company closely.
All I'm saying is the 290x is a really good card for under $300. I don't understand why someone would spend twice as much on a 980, but to each their own.
Seems like AMD should just fire everyone who was/is in any way responsible for marketing and maybe try to hire some of NVIDIA's guys. If their recent cards are really as good as some of the posters here claim and it is (and I quote) "a failure at the feet of the consumer to recognize just how great of a card the 290x is" then it should have been easy to market the card accordingly.
Can't blame NVIDIA when AMD can't even market their own hardware properly.
Can't blame NVIDIA when AMD can't even market their own hardware properly.
Script Kiddies LLC
Banned
I figured there would be a bigger boost due to people buying AMD cards for bitcoin mining, but I guess not.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
NVIDIA has the professional/academic/high-end CG sector pretty much on lockdown at this point. They've been the preferred vendor in those areas for well over a decade, especially when it comes to developer/driver support as well as the Linux space.
There's more than just gaming when it comes to GPU usage. Of course, their success in that market definitely helps in other areas of their business as well.
My last AMD card was a 5770, I think, and I loved it. I don't remember having any problems with it. I still think they were using the ATi brand back then. I was a little upset when they killed the ATi name, so I still call the graphics cards ATi in my head.
Since then I've moved to 560 ti, then 760 and SLI to 970 and now SLI. AMDs cards were really appealing to me for a good while like 1-2 years ago (iirc?), but they were all horribly overpriced because of the bitcoin stuff. I think that's when I just wrote AMD GPUs off even though I really, really wanted one.
I imagine the new 3xx series from AMD are going to be great when they come out this summer, and I bet that they work on power efficiency and temperature since that's what most people bring up nowadays (even though, as pointed out in this thread, it is not as extreme as many people probably think). I'll probably stick with team green then, though...
Since then I've moved to 560 ti, then 760 and SLI to 970 and now SLI. AMDs cards were really appealing to me for a good while like 1-2 years ago (iirc?), but they were all horribly overpriced because of the bitcoin stuff. I think that's when I just wrote AMD GPUs off even though I really, really wanted one.
I imagine the new 3xx series from AMD are going to be great when they come out this summer, and I bet that they work on power efficiency and temperature since that's what most people bring up nowadays (even though, as pointed out in this thread, it is not as extreme as many people probably think). I'll probably stick with team green then, though...
Irony
AMD had beta Drivers up launch day.
Neither company is flying high with the game considering all the work and it still can run like crap for a lot of people. I'm one of the lucky few who doesn't have problems.
TJP
Member
I've never owned an AMD GPU as I've always been extremely happy with Nvidia's hardware. I along with plenty others, seem to feel the same way. My brother in law uses AMD GPU's and is yet to have an issue with their hardware or software...
It isn't about picking a 'team' either; I doubt Nvidia or AMD give a fuck about me apart my wallet and user experience. I find for what I'm interested in, racing simulations, the better GPU's are Nvidia's based off user experience & feedback in community forums. The community rep for ISI (rFactor and rFactor 2) Tim Weatley recommended to buy Nvidia GPU's as they worked with ISI where as AMD didn't bother to assist them. Whose at fault here? It sure as hell isn't ISI or Nvidia.
As for high prices for Nvidia GPU's - the demand is high & so are their prices and clearly the market feels the price difference is justifiable. I don't get the complaints as companies in all sectors do exactly the same thing. Perhaps their should be a thread calling out Ferrari & Ducati for high priced vehicles
It isn't about picking a 'team' either; I doubt Nvidia or AMD give a fuck about me apart my wallet and user experience. I find for what I'm interested in, racing simulations, the better GPU's are Nvidia's based off user experience & feedback in community forums. The community rep for ISI (rFactor and rFactor 2) Tim Weatley recommended to buy Nvidia GPU's as they worked with ISI where as AMD didn't bother to assist them. Whose at fault here? It sure as hell isn't ISI or Nvidia.
As for high prices for Nvidia GPU's - the demand is high & so are their prices and clearly the market feels the price difference is justifiable. I don't get the complaints as companies in all sectors do exactly the same thing. Perhaps their should be a thread calling out Ferrari & Ducati for high priced vehicles