Aside from the story, is 'The Last Of Us' really that special?

TitusGroan said:
And I have seen many posts say why they think the game isn't quite as good as others make out, and you are yourself ignoring those posts now in your argument.

You are being incredibly disingenuous when saying most people here don't want an honest debate, and veering dangerously close to writing off anyone who disagrees with your opinion as wrong in some way. That is the kind of mindset I am talking about. Plenty of people have posted their thoughts on the game, whether positive or negative, and made their points. Engage with those posts or not, but don't ignore them, then act as if they don't exist. Writing off posts as 'bullshits' offers nothing constructive, and simply endorses the same vitriolic attitude that has taken over this thread.
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You can state that pigs can fly, I respect your opinion, but if you want me to believe it, you better bring some good proofs. This is the difference between an opinion and a thesis. I respect everyone's opinion, no matter how dumb it is, but not a thesis without arguments. Therefore I ask: are we collecting opinions here or are we trying to debate, ergo to compare our theses?
Personally I hope the latter because the former is totally useless and a wasted opportunity in such a big community.
And you should check what I've written here, I'm very far from this mindset you're talking about. I like to read debates, even those posts I disagree with, just to get a more complete picture, but here it doesn't look easy.
Unfortunately I (and I'm not alone, it seems) did end up to this conclusion reading the thread for the most part. Evidently I missed some very interesting and well-argued posts, which is bad. I'll pay more attenton next time.
In any case, I didn't ignore the posts I found, I even asked some questions about gameplay based on some points I read..

  • Why the crafting system is useless? What's the alternative, picking things up already created? Don't you think this would make a poorer gameplay?
  • Why the stealth doesn't work or it doesn't satisfy you?
  • What's wrong with the melee? I've even read it's a bunch of QTE, please explain.
  • What's wrong with the IA, apart from the known bug of Bill's section? The behaviour of the enemies isn't convincing?
  • Why you think that mechanics from Splinter Cell or MGS would help the game? Don't you think they would have been out of place and inconsistent with the character?
  • Why you compare TLOU to Uncharted or even Vanquish (this is fantastic by the way)? Do they have something in commons apart from guns?
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..that were mentioned but left with no explanations.
Their turn now. If a debate is not their interest, fine, I'll not reply to their posts, but I'd still like to read the answers to these questions. For the sake of comparison you know.
 
Guevara said:
TLOU was a fine cover-based shooter from a generation that gave us dozens of fine cover-based shooters. Naughty Dog alone gave us 4 story-focused cover-based shooters this gen. When people praise the story I always think *for a videogame: "The characters were so good *for a videogame", "I really cared about the story *for a videogame", etc.

But what really bothers me is the gameplay, which was streamlined and generic, and the AI, which despite all the promises was no better than your average shooter this gen. I'm just exhausted by 'pop out from cover, shoot bad guys 5 times in the chest (or once in the head)' mechanics. I'm exhausted by the easteregg hunt of finding meaningless shit in the world and "crafting" single-use items. It's really no better than finding crates of grenades and ammo. I'm tired of being told how this time the AI is going to work together to hunt you down, and other lies.

A lot of people clearly view TLOU as the ne plus ultra of videogames, which bums me out because games could be so much more than just another refined shooter with fancy graphics.
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Is there an example of a game that has a great story and characters that you don't say 'for a videogame. "


Can you give one example that transcends video games and is an awesome story with awesome characters despite being a videogame?
 
Everything about the game is great except for melee combat against multiple human enemies. The first time the game forces you to fight more than one enemy in a non-stealth setting, you quickly realize that the combat is nothing more than simple button-mashing. It was completely chaotic, and not in a good way.
 
Honestly I was pretty much "eh" on Last of Us. I think ND on PS3 peaked with Uncharted 2. Given ND's standards, TLOU didn't surprise me at all.

The resource-based third person action gameplay is interesting, and I think ND does scripted events better than the vast majority of developers making shooters just by virtue of not turning them into interactive cut scenes. But in the end I see it as nothing more than an interesting diversion, not some totally addictive innovation. Uncharted 2 is a conventional third person shooter, but I found its set pieces more exciting and its level design more compelling. TLOU's story is predictably well-acted with interesting characters, but like the rest of the game I don't see it as the greatest thing of all time. TLOU isn't my game of the generation or even on my GOTY list for last year.

I think my main issue with TLOU is that while it tries to be more than a standard action game, it doesn't stray far enough from that structure. For all its efforts it's still too similar to Uncharted. That whole structure was built to, generally, make something fun rather than serious (or tense), and Uncharted 2 is simply a more fun game (and one of my top PS3 games).

Guevara said:
TLOU was a fine cover-based shooter from a generation that gave us dozens of fine cover-based shooters. Naughty Dog alone gave us 4 story-focused cover-based shooters this gen. When people praise the story I always think *for a videogame: "The characters were so good *for a videogame", "I really cared about the story *for a videogame", etc.

But what really bothers me is the gameplay, which was streamlined and generic, and the AI, which despite all the promises was no better than your average shooter this gen. I'm just exhausted by 'pop out from cover, shoot bad guys 5 times in the chest (or once in the head)' mechanics. I'm exhausted by the easteregg hunt of finding meaningless shit in the world and "crafting" single-use items. It's really no better than finding crates of grenades and ammo. I'm tired of being told how this time the AI is going to work together to hunt you down, and other lies.

A lot of people clearly view TLOU as the ne plus ultra of videogames, which bums me out because games could be so much more than just another refined shooter with fancy graphics.
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Well shit, beat me to it. That's what I get for taking so long to post.

3rdamention said:
Is there an example of a game that has a great story and characters that you don't say 'for a videogame. "


Can you give one example that transcends video games and is an awesome story with awesome characters despite being a videogame?
Click to expand...

That's the problem with this market right now. Good examples are so few and far between.
 
Guevara said:
TLOU was a fine cover-based shooter from a generation that gave us dozens of fine cover-based shooters. Naughty Dog alone gave us 4 story-focused cover-based shooters this gen. When people praise the story I always think *for a videogame: "The characters were so good *for a videogame", "I really cared about the story *for a videogame", etc.

But what really bothers me is the gameplay, which was streamlined and generic, and the AI, which despite all the promises was no better than your average shooter this gen. I'm just exhausted by 'pop out from cover, shoot bad guys 5 times in the chest (or once in the head)' mechanics. I'm exhausted by the easteregg hunt of finding meaningless shit in the world and "crafting" single-use items. It's really no better than finding crates of grenades and ammo. I'm tired of being told how this time the AI is going to work together to hunt you down, and other lies.

A lot of people clearly view TLOU as the ne plus ultra of videogames, which bums me out because games could be so much more than just another refined shooter with fancy graphics.
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Bravo.
 
RoboPlato said:
The multiplayer's flow is far different than the story's.
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Agreed, but It's also absolutely not a straight shooter in multiplayer.

Those who play it like one will run out of ammo in a flash.


For the post above:

What was streamlined and generic about the gameplay?
How and where did the AI fail?
 
There are a couple of very smart tweaks to some long-standing genre conventions. For example, firing a bullet always felt important, unique, impactful, and precious. And the stealth view was a smooth and smart risk-reward mechanic.

Otherwise, a solid and utterly conventional stealth-action game.
 
conman said:
There are a couple of very smart tweaks to some long-standing genre conventions. For example, firing a bullet always felt important, unique, impactful, and precious. And the stealth view was a smooth and smart risk-reward mechanic.

Otherwise, a solid and utterly conventional stealth-action game.
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A thing can't have smart tweaks and be utterly conventional at the same time.

The play at Ford's Theatre in April 14, 1865 was utterly conventional, save for the assassination of the president.
 
I beat the game. So here is my take:

Gameplay: Nothing special at all. Also the game is longer than it should be imo. I got bored halfway through it.

Visuals & Story: There is something special there.
 
3rdamention said:
Is there an example of a game that has a great story and characters that you don't say 'for a videogame. "


Can you give one example that transcends video games and is an awesome story with awesome characters despite being a videogame?
Click to expand...

Plenty of games have good back story and lore: Bioshock, Bioshock Infinite, Dark Souls, some of the earlier Halo games, Majora's Mask is brilliant in this regard. But that's not the same.

It's hard to come up with games that have great characters and playable narrative: maybe Portal and Max Payne? I actually think some of the Uncharted games have good stories, (as in: would make pretty decent action movies).
 
It's worth a play but if you don't wanna game about Apocalypse and you don't want a TPS, obviously you have already made your mind up about the game. I thought the gameplay was fine. It's not the best gameplay experience ever but it was more than good enough for me. Weapons felt good, solid feeling of progression, different way to tackle scenarios, varied environments. I liked it, but if you have all these check marks of what you don't want you'll be disappointed.
 
DevilFox said:
You can state that pigs can fly, I respect your opinion, but if you want me to believe it, you better bring some good proofs. This is the difference between an opinion and a thesis. I respect everyone's opinion, no matter how dumb it is, but not a thesis without arguments. Therefore I ask: are we collecting opinions here or are we trying to debate, ergo to compare our theses?
Personally I hope the latter because the former is totally useless and a wasted opportunity in such a big community.
And you should check what I've written here, I'm very far from this mindset you're talking about. I like to read debates, even those posts I disagree with, just to get a more complete picture, but here it doesn't look easy.
Unfortunately I (and I'm not alone, it seems) did end up to this conclusion reading the thread for the most part. Evidently I missed some very interesting and well-argued posts, which is bad. I'll pay more attenton next time.
In any case, I didn't ignore the posts I found, I even asked some questions about gameplay based on some points I read..



..that were mentioned but left with no explanations.
Their turn now. If a debate is not their interest, fine, I'll not reply to their posts, but I'd still like to read the answers to these questions. For the sake of comparison you know.
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hawk2025 said:
For the post above:

What was streamlined and generic about the gameplay?
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You will never get a response. I'm been asking the same questions to certain people in TLOU threads since yesterday. Why is so hard to get an explanation on why certain people found the gameplay to be bad/poor/boring/generic :(
 
Only negatives I had with the gameplay was first not being able to drag bodies out of sight like MGS and the amount of animations for stealth kills so that got old after awhile. Was fun otherwise. I liked the gameplay more than the story.
 
All around great game, even the multiplayer and the DLC turned out great.

At this point just get it if you have any interested(sell it if you end up not liking it), I don't think reading other people opinions without having played the game will be of mush help, specialty now.

I see many people trying to bash the game mostly for their own agendas (hatred towards cinematic games, harbingers of doom, dislike for AAA, "I'm unique" or your regular console war) while the majority of people that enjoyed the game probably moved over or have discussed it to many times already and are pretty satisfied.

Getting to experience this game for the first time at 1080p/60fps, with improvements and a new difficulty mode, DLC included, using DS4, etc, seems so good its almost unfair, your loss if you don't play.

The amount of excitement for a re-release of a game that is just 1 years old should be a good hint at how good the game was.
 
The graphics were outstanding. I really enjoyed exploring new areas and the dialogue between the characters. However, all of the shooting scenes were terrible.
 
Porcupeth said:
Stopped reading there. TLOU is a stealth survival horror game.

MP is closer to what you say but still more of a tactical team shooter than a cover based TPS.
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Honestly, hahaha, a cover based shooter where you shoot one of the six bullets you have left as a last ditch effort to get out of a fucked up situation.
 
RoboPlato said:
I'm always surprised when I see people refer to TLoU as a shooter. I'd fire a handful of shots every now and then but it's far from what I generally think of in terms of TPS combat design and pacing.
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Same here. The game is not a shooter. My playthroughs mostly involved bricks, beer bottles, two by fours, shivs, baseball bats, molotov cocktails, fists and choking people out from behind. Guns only when necessary.

I never played it on easy/normal though. Maybe those difficulty levels give you enough ammo to just shoot your way through the game? idk.
 
Great game. For me personally it was one of the best of last gen. I think Red Dead was better though. Since it was a console exclusive I think it has received a bit more (ongoing) hype than it deserves (my opinion). Seems like people forget that many games tell incredible stories.
 
Every aspect of The Last of Us was masterfully done! The crafting served a specific purpose of rationing items you may find in that world, and you decide on which items to craft. It determines how you may proceed when enemies are in your path. The Last of Us is similar to Uncharted (particularly Uncharted 2) because it uses game play with a AI supporting character, to form a bond with that AI character. You need the supporting AI character to make it from point A to point B. The story was brilliant. The graphics was brilliant. The game play was brilliant. It won over 200 Game of the Year Awards for a reason...it deserved them!
 
The rub with anything that garners nearly universal praise is that people's expectations soar beyond any reasonable level and people set themselves up for disappointment. It can't be a truly great game, or even one of the generation's best - it has to be the second coming of Jesus or otherwise realign all of your perceptions.

The Last of Us is a very deftly crafted game, with story, stealth, shooting, scavenging and horror elements, and while each of those elements shine in isolation, they also flow into each other well and even reinforce each other.

If you haven't played it, chances are you'll find something truly worth your time, even if it doesn't become your all time favorite game of the forever. At the very least it won't be a waste of $50 or whatever you spend for it.

For my part I was in it for the mechanics. But the characters kept me glued to the game throughout and gave me something to think about when it was all over.
 
LowEndTorque said:
Same here. The game is not a shooter. My playthroughs mostly involved bricks, beer bottles, two by fours, shivs, baseball bats, molotov cocktails, fists and choking people out from behind. Guns only when necessary.

I never played it on easy/normal though. Maybe those difficulty levels give you enough ammo to just shoot your way through the game? idk.
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Agree 100%. And I do think the AI reacts, behaves differently on harder difficulties. Different things happen. My first play on Survivor, a part played out differently with the first time running into infected. At that point I knew the game was gonna play differently...

Maybe it can be a shooter if you have enough ammo for all the gun weapons and arrows? Or maybe on lower difficulties you meet less enemies. Like I said....certain things you craft, upgrade will dictate the gameplay for each person....depending on how you play.
 
To be honest, I didn't even enjoy the story. TLOU was probably my biggest disappointment of last year, and knowing that ND is going more and more in that direction in the future has turned me off of all their future projects. Being a ridiculously huge Uncharted and Jak fan, this feeling makes me very sad, but I just can't do another story or bugged out game like TLOU again.
 
NullPointer said:
The rub with anything that garners nearly universal praise is that people's expectations soar beyond any reasonable level and people set themselves up for disappointment. It can't be a truly great game, or even one of the generation's best - it has to be the second coming of Jesus or otherwise realign all of your perceptions.

The Last of Us is a very deftly crafted game, with story, stealth, shooting, scavenging and horror elements, and while each of those elements shine in isolation, they also flow into each other well and even reinforce each other.

If you haven't played it, chances are you'll find something truly worth your time, even if it doesn't become your all time favorite game of the forever. At the very least it won't be a waste of $50 or whatever you spend for it.

For my part I was in it for the mechanics. But the characters kept me glued to the game throughout and gave me something to think about when it was all over.
Click to expand...

This happened to me when I first played Ocarina of Time (sorry, my father doesn't like video games and thus never bought me a console as a kid)
 
hawk2025 said:
A thing can't have smart tweaks and be utterly conventional at the same time.
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Of course it can. Raiders of the Lost Ark is utterly conventional (built almost entirely of old film serial conventions and Classic Hollywood film techniques), but it's very smart in how it deploys those formulas. But that doesn't make it anything more than incredibly conventional. Or closer to home, look at any good sequel to any good game, and you'll see tons of examples of "smart tweaks" to familiar conventions. Super obvious example would be ND's own Uncharted 2.

The play at Ford's Theatre in April 14, 1865 was utterly conventional, save for the assassination of the president.
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Smarmy analogy, but completely beside the point since the assassination wasn't written into the play...
 
I'd argue the story itself isn't that great: it's typical by-the-numbers apocalyptic zombie story. The deliverence of that story is what TLoU does better than many.
 
LowEndTorque said:
Same here. The game is not a shooter. My playthroughs mostly involved bricks, beer bottles, two by fours, shivs, baseball bats, molotov cocktails, fists and choking people out from behind. Guns only when necessary.

I never played it on easy/normal though. Maybe those difficulty levels give you enough ammo to just shoot your way through the game? idk.
Click to expand...

The combat has a nice resource-based edge to it which causes you to use guns much more rarely, but to me it still feels extremely similar to shooters and other third person action games. And in that capacity, I don't feel like its gameplay accomplished anything exceptional, but that's just me.
 
3rdamention said:
Is there an example of a game that has a great story and characters that you don't say 'for a videogame. "


Can you give one example that transcends video games and is an awesome story with awesome characters despite being a videogame?
Click to expand...

I would say KOTOR 2 has more interesting concepts and themes than anything made in the Star Wars universe. It's got a fantastic narrative that subverts all expectations of the genre and the franchise it works in.

And I'm sure many would argue that Planescape Torment is best written game ever as well. That game has an insane level of depth, worldbuilding, and choice and consequence that can only be done in games.
 
Here are a few things that stood out to me

-The story was simple, yet effective. I generally cared about the characters, which speaks to the exceptional writing of them as well as the all around acting. The game stuck with me many weeks after finishing and that's probably the only game to do so.

-The gameplay was a part of the story and the world. It was messy, Brutal, and necessary. Sure the AI could be hit and miss but it was still pretty good.

-Atmposphere: This was the best part of the game for me. It probably had the best atmosphere of any game I've ever played.
 
conman said:
Of course it can. Raiders of the Lost Ark is utterly conventional (built almost entirely of old film serial conventions and Classic Hollywood film techniques), but it's very smart in how it deploys those formulas. But that doesn't make it anything more than incredibly conventional. Or closer to home, look at any good sequel to any good game, and you'll see tons of examples of "smart tweaks" to familiar conventions. Super obvious example would be ND's own Uncharted 2.

Smarmy analogy, but completely beside the point since the assassination wasn't written into the play...
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ut·ter·ly
ˈətərlē/Submit
adverb
completely and without qualification; absolutely.



Something cannot have smart tweaks and be "utterly conventional", by definition.
 
jroc74 said:
Agree 100%. And I do think the AI reacts, behaves differently on harder difficulties. Different things happen. My first play on Survivor, a part played out differently with the first time running into infected. At that point I knew the game was gonna play differently...

Maybe it can be a shooter if you have enough ammo for all the gun weapons and arrows? Or maybe on lower difficulties you meet less enemies. Like I said....certain things you craft, upgrade will dictate the gameplay for each person....depending on how you play.
Click to expand...

AI is the same across all difficulties aside from your resources and health. The only reason why you see the AI more reactive at harder difficulties is because you are forced to take a passive approach allowing the AI to breathe. You never get this chance at easier difficulties because they are too easy to pick off, not to mention you become less attuned to managing health and resources. This is why it suggestive you play this game on higher difficulties.
 
hawk2025 said:
ut·ter·ly
ˈətərlē/Submit
adverb
completely and without qualification; absolutely.



Something cannot have smart tweaks and be "utterly conventional", by definition.
Click to expand...
Ugh. Well, since you've gone down the (utterly ridiculous) route of semantic argumentation, I suggest doing more thorough etymological research next time. "Utterly" can be used solely for emphasis--like "very" or "really" or "pretty"--and it's been used that way since at least the 14th century (so it isn't some recent colloquialism).

But something tells me you were just digging anyway, since my point was abundantly (and utterly) clear.
 
RoboPlato said:
I'm always surprised when I see people refer to TLoU as a shooter. I'd fire a handful of shots every now and then but it's far from what I generally think of in terms of TPS combat design and pacing.
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Yeah I guess everyone approached the game differently but I made more use of bricks and my limited resources, on more than one occasion just sneaking by. Hell I often didn't have near enough ammo for the game to be an all out shooter.
 
sploatee said:
Not trolling. Can only say it so many times. And seriously, for fuck's sake - I've been reading some of the more constructive responses and thinking about picking the game up regardless and giving it a fair shot.

I'm rather tired of the amount of aggression in this thread, the presumption of agendas and of trolling and the hyper-seriousness of it all. I guess it's just a place for frustrated people to argue. I've been patronised, accused of deliberate shit-stirring and trying to push some kind of bizarre agenda.

Simply put, I was curious about people's experiences. So I posted a thread to ask about the game in good faith. Lots of kind, sensible people responded articulately and it made for an interesting read and has made me quite likely to pick it up now. I think there are a good few posters in this thread who operate in some kind of bizarre netherworld where everything is love or hate and everything simply has to be an argument. It's actually kind of sad. I love video games and thanks to this forum I've actually met some really cool people who I can talk about games to, too. But there's definitely a contingent who are just plain bonkers and need some fresh air once in a while. I've probably posted some inaccurate things (yep, pull up my post history, do whatever you want) but I have a life, you know? I don't cross-check every reference when posting etc etc - I do enough of that at work. I'm happy to admit I'm wrong...I was just hoping for some interesting discussion and to learn a bit more about the game.

Anyway, you'll probably accuse me of trolling for making this post or probably come back (or someone else will) with some other aggressive comment. It's pretty toxic tbh and discourages people who probably want to have a more civilised discussion.
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SolidSnakex posted a brilliant round-up of reviews (which, would you believe, are personal opinions from real people who played the game) 600+ posts detailing both sides of the argument, 10s of people saying 'Just play it OP', or 'Don't bother, it's not for you' and you still bumble around saying the equivalent of 'Yes, but apart from all that, what have the Romans ever done for us?'.

I think most people here rather than being rabid TLoU fans, are just wondering what you are looking for and are becoming exasperated with your stubbornness to sift the evidence yourself. Then you get posters strolling in going 'Watched it on Youtube 6/10, story was meh' making it very difficult for the people who try to explain why they love the game, and those that don't think it's all that (and you know that if somebody is mentioning story above - or without mentioning - character, you can safely assume they have never been near the game with a controller and played it for themselves) so you have a confrontational thread by default.

Telling people to 'get some fresh air and/or a life' and calling them 'sad' is not going to endear people to your cause - and quite tellingly, you only appear to have called out the people who are fans of the game here in your accusation of those sad people with mental health problems. But do feel free to clarify your view, so we know for sure we're wasting our time because you just can't accept opinions from the mental.

I have 40 years of videogaming under my belt, I could talk videogames, anecdotes and facts all day with you, and I don't think TLoU us the best game ever. It is however a brilliant example of how a story-based videogame can give you characters you care about, a great story in an often beautiful post-apocalyptic setting and some excellent gunplay and stealth. It also comes closest to avoiding the ludonarrative dissonance inherent (so far) in story-based shooters, Joel only needs to kill those who are a direct threat to himself and Ellie, and you don't have to be a mass murderer of Pirate Island if you don't want to. Every encounter is a desperate attempt to get through and survive, and no encounter is trivial.

It's called (stupidly IMO) the Citizen Kane of gaming, not because it's a more movie than game that you might as well watch on Youtube lol, but because it blends story, character and gameplay and that sets genre conventions in a way that other games will undoubtedly follow - ND advanced the art of story-based gaming. Whether you hate story-based gaming is irrelevant, those that love them can play them and everything else they desire, while others can cut off their noses to spite their face, and dismiss a whole genre just because cutscenes.

And for my sad-sack, basement-dwelling credentials; my all time top 5: Robotron: 2084, NiGHTs: Into Dreams, Marble Madness, RE4 and Space Channel 5: Part Two.

Of course, I would actually struggle to give a top 100, but I always go back to those.

MavFan619 said:
Yeah I guess everyone approached the game differently but I made more use of bricks and my limited resources, on more than one occasion just sneaking by. Hell I often didn't have near enough ammo for the game to be an all out shooter.
Click to expand...

Naughty Dog created the first post-apocalyptic sneaky brick 'em up, and that's why we love them :)
 
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