Some were probably GAF'ers.
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Comic-Con Trailer
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Some were probably GAF'ers.
I'm not what people are trying to prove when they bring up destruction in Man of Steel at this point. Yes people died as a result of two God like superheros trying to destroy eachother in a city under threat of global devastation. Its a major theme that is being addressed in BvS. I would not say Superman had time to check if people are okay after being pummeled repeatedly with time against him.
Those GAFers saw what Clark did. RIP in peace, car parking structure GAFers.
Defend what? You have two super powers battling in a city. You don't think there will be any collateral damage?
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
TheSecondSpitter
Member
Because despite his near invincibility he still makes mistakes of judgment. It's a recurring theme to the entire Superman mythos.
(although I suspect the writers didn't think about it half as much as we did)
Or, depending upon the writer *cough Frank Miller cough* Superman is just a naive asshole.
More_Badass
Member
Clark just crashed through and walked out of that same garage. Pretty reasonable that he would know if there were civilians in the same structure he was just in
People tend to ignore what happened 5 seconds before
There's collateral damage, and then there's casually jumping over a petrol tanker and posing like an asshole just as a building explodes behind you.
That's classic superdickery.
WadiumArcadium
Member
He did look cool though. Screw any people in the building behind you if it makes you look cool.
Unfortunately he looked at the explosion afterwards. Cool guys don't look at explosions.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
It's a parking garage. I'm sure if someone died it was probably the kind of person who spends countless hours looking for his car, because he/she forgot where they parked. Trust me that person probably deserved to be picked by natural selection.
bryanee
Member
That's the only problem I had with that entire fight.
More_Badass
Member
It's funny how people slam MoS for its destruction while animated Superman punches Darkseid through like 7 buildings and his fight with Captain Marvel levels entire buildings, among other moments
http://youtu.be/6BJ1-trrgqc
http://youtu.be/Cl_5UwS57X8
If anything, Man of Steel Superman is less destructive than Justice League Superman
http://youtu.be/6BJ1-trrgqc
http://youtu.be/Cl_5UwS57X8
If anything, Man of Steel Superman is less destructive than Justice League Superman
WadiumArcadium
Member
Rookie mistake.
EdibleKnife
Member
I have to create scenarios in my head to be anyway salty about that MoS scene. I've read it all and I still don't know how people are still so angry about it.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Batman overall is more interesting as a series. That's why they made more series with it. Seems a lot of Superfans holding a lot nice hope of it rivaling Batman but as Shu said, let them dream.
With Captain Marvel wasn't he in an unoccupied, newly built city? The lights were probably on for show... yeah.
With Darkseid he just doesn't give a fuck.
bryanee
Member
With Darkseid you kinda have to go all out though so I don't blame him for that. Its a shame what happened after that punch though.
Batman the character, in any medium, has also had very talented creators falling over themselves to work with it - which led to a lot of quality work. Many writers never "got" Superman, or just found him boring but still worked with him for a paycheck (years of reading creator posts on their message boards and blogs led me to this conclusion).
So someone wants to get into Batman? Point them to ground breaking comic runs, graphic novels, or animated or live action feature films. Some by actual literary giants or celebrated directors. Superman? Slim pickings, and much of it is decades old and doesn't hold up as well.
I don't think the issue people have is with the destruction. It's with how tone-deaf the movie is with the fact that the fight, and destruction surrounding it, happened.
Nothing in the movie post (and during even, with moments like the kiss) highlights what just happened. Superman is fucking up military drones and riding a bicycle to the Daily Planet like "...what?".
It's just not good storytelling. Those buildings could have been made of Lego; they just wanted to portray that large scale destruction and still end on a witty one-liner instead of candlelight vigil. They wanted Superman to be "kinda hot" instead of 'the omni-powerful being we don't know if we can trust'.
Within the scope of a film a scene like that should have consequences and it didn't. Even the Avengers showed a news reel of the human impact of the invasion in that film.
The goods news is that it seems like BvS is carrying the tone of that scene and building a sequel from there, so it might imbue the events of Man of Steel with meaning that the actual film didn't have.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
None of that changes that the main character and villains on Batman's side of things are more interesting. People resonate more with a human that has impressive feats rather that creators circle jerking each other when it comes making up every power imaginable for the hero of the story. I think that's why Superman's villain will always get hurt.
Much more people find Batman more interesting. People can go through loop holes to try to figure it out, but they find him more interesting. Better to accept this because it's not bad being #2. That should be the goal with Supes.
I generally agree with you. I think this is why so many writers of Superman express that they just don't get him. He's not as relatable. And is Batman's rogues gallery a chicken and egg problem? I.E. more motivated, talented directors building on them, or just past strokes of genius during their creation?
Edit: I say "generally", because when I writer does get how to work with the character and his iconic supporting cast they can craft some amazing stories - like Grant Morrison did with Superman.
The better villains and character is all subjective. As for resonating more it's because he's just a human in a world of Gods. It's easy to make just some guy interesting: put him in danger or a fight. Since anything can hurt him there's more weight behind each punch he receives and each action he takes. At least that's how I saw it but it's gotten beyond ridiculous now with Batman going toe to toe with Darkseid, defeating the Justice and League, and making Supes bleed with a punch. As for villains I find the fact that Superman's greatest foe is just a human extremely interesting. It's not Zod or Brainiac or Mongul, but Lex Luthor. I find Batman to have two amazing villains in Scarecrow and Joker, a handful of great ones, and the rest vary. To be fair I find the same for Supes though I think he has one more amazing one and a couple less great ones.
People like him better because he's a human that can be hurt and uses his wits to battle with the strongest, fastest, and most cunning superhumans and monsters on top of having a well-known Rogues Gallery and extended supporting cast. But, I must ask, why are the Avengers popular? They have horrendous villains (especially Iron Man) but mainstream ate them up. There's no blueprint into why a character or series is or becomes popular otherwise Corporate would just be following the blueprint for all their characters. Supes has no goal, Supes' writers have no goal except making a Superman story. It would be DC's goal more than anyone's and they just go with the hot hand. If Blue Beetle started blowing everyone and every thing out of the water sales wise then DC would start heading towards that.
As for Rogue's Galleries I think Spider-Man has the absolute best, followed by The Flash. After that it changes for me yearly.
Edit:
Superman isn't meant to be overly relatable, you're supposed to aspire to be like him.
At the same time people CAN relate to Supes because he's a lost guy just trying to find his way/place in the World and understands that one man can't do everything but he's still gonna do his best even when odds are stacked against him.
There's different types of characters in every media and this argument goes out the window if you like Batman because, besides him being "just a guy", he's COMPLETELY unrelatable. You can't use "unrelatability" as a negative for Supes then ignore it for other heroes like Batman.
Two shows... well several shows.
But Lois and Clark and Smallville were highly popular shows for their time.
I believe Smallville was pulling in like 10 million a week.
There was also a short-lived Superboy show in the 80s.
It's just a great action flick.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
It's not just being relatable. Him having so many powers is boring. You can still make some great stories with him, but it's certainly easier when you have a more interesting main character, better villains and for the most part a more interesting world as well. This is going to go on psychological rabbit hole on why is someone more interesting than the other when almost everything is in their favor.
Some people here just need to accept that Batman is bigger and more popular for good reason. Or start creating a novel on why and what's instead of accepting it like the last few pages.
As I said in my previous post, Snyder's job is to push Supes to #2 status and that's going to be pretty difficult especially with the competition and popularity of other characters.I have generally found Lex to be generally either very boring or a solid villain, which I can pick C or B tier villains from Batman out of and they end up being just as good or in most cases more interesting. With Superman, it's generally characters like Braniac or my favorite Darkseid that pique my interest.
And yes, we all know it's subjective. It's also subjective that someone thinks Batman & Robin is the best comic book movie ever made, that doesn't mean that most people agree with that sentiment. Superman just isn't as interesting as Batman to most people, and I totally agree with the majority.
Why are Avengers popular? Well because dumbed down storylines with action and everyone being on a 1 line sitcom laughing style of conversing with one another
(fucking everyone really Marvel?)
Mighty Chin
Banned
Isn't it obvious, Supes gave the building an Ocular Patdown there. He determined the building was empty. He did that with that slight turn of his head.
Mighty Chin
Banned
Gonzalez made me chuckle.
Schweinehund
Member
Seeing Goku as a threat, he'd sneak a nanite capsule into Goku's food with a remote release function. When Goku is starting to become out of control he releases the nanites which simulate a heart disease, causing Goku to have a heart attack and die.
Lex's chapter in villains months was by far one of the best. When Lex is done right he's easily a top 3 villain of all time and when he's done wrong he can be awful but that's the same for any villain (looking at you Death of the Family/Ultimatum).
He's not interesting because people care more of how a character handles a battle than the character itself. They feel like Superman can just "powers" his way out of all his situations which makes him boring to them. They don't care about Clark Kent and his beliefs or even Superman's ideals, just how he fights.
This is what I think of when I think of Superman.
This is what a lot of the mainstream thinks.
My point being that popularity happens for many different reasons. Popularity wanes for many different reasons. Mainstream popularity is a fickle thing.
WarMacheen
Member
Actually Batman prep timed his popularity
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
If Lex can be top 3, then so can villains by the hundreds if written well enough. The villains for Supes are not that good for the most part.Lex's chapter in villains months was by far one of the best. When Lex is done right he's easily a top 3 villain of all time and when he's done wrong he can be awful but that's the same for any villain (looking at you Death of the Family/Ultimatum).
He's not interesting because people care more of how a character handles a battle than the character itself. They feel like Superman can just "powers" his way out of all his situations which makes him boring to them. They don't care about Clark Kent and his beliefs or even Superman's ideals, just how he fights.
This is what I think of when I think of Superman.
This is what a lot of the mainstream thinks.
My point being that popularity happens for many different reasons. Popularity wanes for many different reasons. Mainstream popularity is a fickle thing.
Yap, brings a tear to my eye.
I think Lex, Brainiac, and Zod are. I'll quickly explain what I mean by well-written. To me you have the basis for a character and it can be bad or good (Carnage has a poor basis, he's just a murdering psycho, Magneto has a good basis). So when you have a character with a good basis that shows off the ideas behind the character it can make them amazing.
The basis of Lex is a great one to me.
lol sure buddy
Batman is more popular because he appeals more to baser human nature. He's rich, good looking, he's a genius (even if the movies have never portrayed that in anything approaching an effective form), he drives an incredible car, women want him, men want to be him, he's motivated by frustration, anger and a desire for revenge. He beats up people he has no business even looking funny at and no one can tell him what to do. He wears black and, at least recently, is played 100% as a straight tough guy with no room for feels. He's a CEO and gets his powers from buying things. He's the modern epitome of "manliness" in corporate-owned consumerist America.
Superman, on the other hand, has for years been meant to appeal to higher ideals in people. He's strong, sure, but that strength has been dedicated to protecting the weak. He's kind, optimistic, humanist, forward-thinking, community-minded. He was the original Social Justice Warrior in a much more literal way. He gets his powers, in a metaphorical sense from embracing the dream of his birth parents that he could have a full, happy life away from the doomed Old World and all of the intensely calcified, negative, apathetic thinking it represents. Superman is directly powered by hope, represented in this case by a young sun with millions of years yet to give. He's the good stuff in people many of us just don't find the time or do not bother to be and he's unironically American. He's a borderline socialist symbol of the power of good-natured common men coming together to make something great, not with money and brains, but with care, their own two hands and their whole heart.
You have to be an idealist to buy into one of those, for the other you can be anybody. And that's why Batman will always be more popular.
But, as an idealist, I will always see Superman as the superior hero. He's not only a better, stronger person, but a better, stronger story. People become the stories they tell about themselves. We can remain past-haunted and bitter, clutching our wealth as we fight a futile and doomed battle with our inner demons and the world. As someone living in 21st century America, that certainly sounds like what we've been doing so far. We can keep doing that, no one is stopping us.
Or we can go join Superman in the sunlight.
You don't have to decide now. He'll wait. Forever and a day if he has to. He can do that. He's Superman. We're the ones that won't last forever.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
You couldn't have written a more biased viewpoint here if you tried, even if some of the things you've stated are on point. Superman is more interesting because people become the stories about themselves?... This sounds like a love letter from a crazed fan than a proper comparison.
I can't tell if it's a joke post and you're being funny or you're actually serious. -_-
This post is very moving and puts into words exactly how I feel about Superman.
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Basically this. Batman just had a murder's row of great talent in multiple mediums making content that caught on with the zeitgeist. It could just as easily been Superman or Wonder Woman or Flash. There's nothing inherent in Batman as a character that got him where he is now; it's all in people like Paul Dini, Frank Miller, Tim Burton, etc.
Not that it matters, but I've been a regular fan of Batman comics and other media since at least 1990. I still distinctly remember the issue that really hooked me into comics. It was a Batman comic during Knightfall where he fights Victor Zsasz in a sorority house. I was like 8 I think and I was bloody terrified from the beginning of that issue all the way to the end. Changed my life. I doubt I'd know anything about Superman at all if not for the Batman. So, I don't think either of them are more interesting than the other. I just think Superman is more important for the reasons outlined above.
lol, I know you're probably joking, but I really should start a blog or a podcast...or both. Maybe that way, I won't end up subjecting the poor people of GAF to my diatribes, heh.
Batman doesn't murder, nor does that seem like something Batman would do.
Way over thinking it.
"CONGRATULATIONS! You've won a lifetime and endless supply of bacon, courtesy of WAYNE ENTERPRISES"
And then all that's left is the waiting game...
Schweinehund
Member
And Goku doesn't fight people that aren't a challenge. I'm just presenting one plausible situation. If a heart virus could disable goku, some versions of Batman would use that advantage (Waid's Tower of Babel).
That could work too
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