Garrett Hawke
Member
He still kills on occasion in those films but he clearly makes an effort not to most of the time.
Battfleck just doesn't give a fuck.
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Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut |OT| - Men are still good (out now)
- Thread starter Ahasverus
- Start date
Battfleck just doesn't give a fuck.
That isn't true either otherwise Batfleck would have killed everyone. But alas, he did not. And how is needlessly slamming into a truck or firing missiles at another "trying not to"?
The One and Done
Member
Garrett Hawke
Member
I don't remember the bit in TDK you're talking about but in TDKR if it's the bit I think you're talking about when Batman is trying to stop the truck with the bomb & Talia, he opens fire on it because he has literally no other option.
Compare that to Batfleck, who not only
kills an entire group of thugs just to get to his objective, also revels in it - dragging the other car behind him for example was completely unnecessary and just made sure that whoever was still alive inside it was absolutely dead. Also, when he causes the crash into the truck with a big tank - who was driving that? A bad guy or an innocent person? Then there's the bit where he literally drives the Batmobile into the convoy truck, clearly aiming to kill whoever was inside.
In the situation where Nolan's Batman killed it was generally as a result of Batman trying to do something else, or because there was literally no other option - compared to Batfleck who seems to make that either the goal or just something that doesn't even need to be worried about in certain scenes.
I am not saying Nolan Batman didn't kill or that because he didn't mean to that its okay. The point I'm making is that he at least showed some regard for human life, which Batfleck does not.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Wait is this movie already out digitally?
Came out today.
just finished watching it, I liked the theatrical version I think I a gave it a 7 iirc, now the uc cut is a 9 easily it explains so much I couldn't believe they cut so much essential stuff out, now one thing I noticed that I hadn't before the fight choreography in the Knightmare scene is horribly bad
brochiller
Member
That's amazing. Wow I can't wait to see this.
You're basically arguing one style of murder is okay versus another in regards to Batman . It feels like it's okay that Baleman did it because those movies were well received and because BvS was not its not.
"Batman would never kill anyone!"
"....except when he does in a movie I like."
I just find that an interesting angle to take from Veelk who earlier today was questioning the logic of others spinning negatives into positives. If the accepted idea among the masses is that a crucial part of making Batman Batman is that he values life above all else than it shouldn't be acceptable regardless of the quality of the movie it happens in.
Garrett Hawke
Member
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm pointing out how tonally they are different. I don't feel the need to explain this further so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, but I promise you it has nothing to do with critical reception. I loved fucking Sucker Punch of all things so I really don't let some meaningless Rotten Tomatoes number dictate how I feel about a movie.
In TDKR, Talia needed to be stopped because her truck was the one with the bomb. That isn't murder, as it's neither premeditated nor is it his objective to kill her. His objective was to stop the truck to get to the bomb. That is explicitely manslaughter committed in a course of action designed to save lives. This is something something I admitted Nolan's Batman does. So you don't have any kind of gotcha here. With TDK, I forget how that scene goes and would have to rewatch it.
But as usual, you seem to miss the point entirely. Lets assume you're right about the TDK example. That's a misstep because 95% of his character is outright depicted as avoiding stuff like that, while BvS revels in it. Which is the entire thesis of the posts. Batman's kills are either directorial or characterizational missteps. BvS, it's very intentional.
I said it in the very first line. "People who try to tally off Batman's number of confirmed kills miss the point entirely." And here you are trying to tally the number of kills Nolan's batman has.
One of us has a communication problem here, and it isn't me.
pluginbaby121
Member
Does the VuDu version have bonus features? It says +bonus features but we can't access them.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
I been working all day so this thread threw for a loop. I'm happy. Going to get on that blu-ray/ digital deal from Vudu and chill for the next 3 hours.
Dreams-Visions
Member
nice to come back and see others warming up to it too 
Daily Planet was also very slow to decide to evacuate, leading to Fishburne and 2 others almost dying. Really, that's one of those, "where are you actually going to run to?" sorts of happenings. Plus imagine the required organization to get everyone out. Police probably were telling people to stay put in doors where it's safe(er).
Smokey_Run
Member
This is after driving head-on into and under the garbage truck shoving it into the ceiling above.
That guy's ok.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
What in the Ultimate Edition constitutes its R-rating?
You said Batfleck murdered people. He said other Batmen murdered people. Let's face it, Nolan's Batman is a dick for leaving Ra's to die.
bigboss370
Member
good god, Superman & Wonder Woman teaming up vs Doomsday looked damn amazing.
excited again for Justice League now.
excited again for Justice League now.
No Veelk. You are missing the point. You always miss the point. If Batman aims at the truck and fires missiles that's a conscious decision to blow it to hell along with whoever is in it. He knows there are people in there, right? He sees them. The truck isn't driving itself. If I point a gun at you and fire that's murder. How are pointing missiles any different? It's a truck. There are several ways to stop a truck. It wasn't even going that fast. And as you love to point out constantly, "it could have been written differently". It's silly to excuse one over the other.
And I'm not tallying anything. A tally implies I'm comparing a count. I'm comparing a type of kill over another.
Okay? And?
Why do people thing I'm trying to say "Batman doesn't kill in the TDK trilogy"?
That isn't what I'm saying at all. To prove me wrong here, you have to build context. Why did Batman stop that truck that way? What was his objective? And how is this depicted as a consistent behavior across the trilogy rather than one incident that was a misstep on Nolan's part for the sake of a cool event?
That's the real thing here: You have to depict Nolan's Batman as being a casual killer in the face of less lethal opportunities on a consistent level to make the claim that BvS and Nolan's Batman are equivelent.
Even if you're right and this is an example of outright murder, then sure, it's a mark against the film since this is out of character for who Nolan's Batman is supposed to be....but that in itself proves that Nolan's batman isn't one who typically goes for the kill, while BvS is.
..yeah, like I said before, I think it's best we simply agree both of us don't think much of the other's ability to reason and leave it at that before the bans start flying.
No, I specifically said that BvS Batman wants to be a murder. Officially, his first attempted murder is Superman. Again, murder requires premeditation and willful execution. That's Zack Snyder is technically right that Batman is only committing manslaughter when he does things like throw cars into buildings during the car scene.
Similarly, Icon's TDKR example is not murder. Batman killed Talia, but he did not murder her. His objective was to stop the truck and it seems he didn't have any other way of doing it. That's also manslaughter.
THe difference between the two is that with the situation set up as it is, Nolan's Batman didn't seem to have other options available to him to stop Talia. Batman clearly had other options than what he did to the people in the car chase.
MisterHero
Super Member
Comics Batman is a sociopath and a hypocrite. Abandoning Jason Todd because he wanted revenge for his own murder proved that to me.
Comics Batman tried to shoot Alexander Luthor for shooting Dick in the back. He has the capacity for emotionally charged killing.
Batfleck is a Batman that finally had too much shit in his life. Nevermind saving the world- his own city is drowning in crime. He can't afford compassion when he fights mercenaries with trucks outfitted with miniguns and guided missiles. Then there's characters like the Joker he put either in jail or Arkham- probably both. All the good guys in Gotham end up either dead or corrupted. He has no hope left and gives zero shits about said mercenaries. I don't give a shit either. The public ended up knowing what Luthor did anyways.
However, a very appropriate response to this would be "Who cleans this up? Would Gotham, or the US government, want Batman dead or in custody?". That can be asked/answered in a future movie. Jim Gordon's in Justice League after all; maybe he'll bring it up. BvS was partly about Batman's shifting personal worldview, it's reasonable that we didn't get a reaction in this movie.
There's a lot of blood and Batman goes OD on the violence. I loved the superheroic nature of Men of Steel but this film ODs on the violence in elseworlds kinda way. Batman is really brutal here and it's kinda shocking. I understand the Superman fight but absent that he brutally kills people and it's not the surgical kind of fighting that Batman is known for.
Superman is clearly one of the harder characters to write because he's so powerful and hard to represent accurately on film narratively. For example,
why should we believe Supes needs to save people in this film? He shows up at a hearing because plot reasons but says at the end of Man of Steel I don't answer to you, US government.
There's easily 20 minutes of deleted scenes that could be chopped off to ease the runtime of this movie. I give this film an 8.
I'm not going to explode and start calling you a name or anything, lol.
And I wouldn't care if you did, but there are ways to communicate that one has little respect how the other reasons that don't involve insults, and we've both communicated them. Eventually, one of us will just flat out insult the other, probably me as I only have so much patience, and I don't want to get banned.
It's a potentially interesting conversation on the effects of Gaf's moderation policy, actually. I see posters essentially call other posters idiots all the time, because we've been trained to insult others in underhanded, indirect ways. Probably a good thing, but it still breeds a culture of disrespect, just of a different kind.
Topic for another day, I guess.
NealMcCauley
Member
Yeah its definitely better. Takes it from a 5 or so to a 7. There are still flaws (mainly towards the end) but its better.
Its late so I can try to add more thoughts in the morning. Haven't read most of the thread yet.
Its late so I can try to add more thoughts in the morning. Haven't read most of the thread yet.
Movie is still ass. Like, watching again made me hate it more. There is a great concept of a movie in here. Two powerful men dealing with feeling powerless with the arrival of superman. One lets the powerlessness consume him, the other rights the ship and comes out of the darkness. Could be a pretty cool movie...but NOPE.
Time for some random commercials in the middle of the film! The nightmare is still fucking stupid. Th fucking email commercials are still fucking stupid. Wonder woman shouldn't be in this. Doomsday should have been Metallo. A person whom supes nor batman could take down alone.
I mean, cut the fat, and the story is actually kinda cool. Bruce starting to kill people because of the arrival of superman really is a good concept. Shame the studio needed to see marvel money ASAP and made Snyder and the writers shoot themselves in the head.
Time for some random commercials in the middle of the film! The nightmare is still fucking stupid. Th fucking email commercials are still fucking stupid. Wonder woman shouldn't be in this. Doomsday should have been Metallo. A person whom supes nor batman could take down alone.
I mean, cut the fat, and the story is actually kinda cool. Bruce starting to kill people because of the arrival of superman really is a good concept. Shame the studio needed to see marvel money ASAP and made Snyder and the writers shoot themselves in the head.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Hard to call that murder when that truck pinned the armoured car that held Harvey. If Batman doesn't collide onto the truck, the Joker would have used the bazooka on the armoured car and taken Harvey. I'd argue it was justified (though we don't see what happened to the driver). As for Talia, all bets were off and she was holding a bomb. Batman had tried to change Talia's path to turn the truck east and ended up forcing her to fall off the upper road.
I need to rewatch the movie, but yeah, I guessed there was some kind of context in that scene that people were missing.
Basically, to put BvS Batman on the same level, you have to argue how Batman had limited choice but to fling that other car into the building. Then we can say, "Okay, that Batman didn't have much room to manuever there."
TheChewyWaffles
Member
This cut really improves the movie.
i have just completed the movie. I have not seen the original and im really drunk. I watched the extended version. I feel like i just watched anime. but really folks actually it wasnt that bad. Actually the extended version is 30 minutes longer. I had a tough time figuring out what they must have cut from the original movie. I had no idea
was in this, so that was a surprise. Not sure what to feel though, i didnt really care about any of the characters. I think it finished stronger than it started, cause by the end i actually cared a little. Was a bit disappointed in Batman though, since people seemed to like that aspect the most from the movie, and to me he just seemed like a cardboard boring badass. Fight scenes were good but at the end of the day i dont know how his character carries a full movie. Nolan's batman had so much more emotion i really cared about shit in that trilogy. Honestly this ended up feeling like a Superman sequel to Man of Steel. I cared more for his character and Amy Adams than anything bats had going. Nice to see the
Wonder Woman seemed like the typical forced 'hot chick' character.
Doomsday arc
resurrection will occur.
I try to keep things somewhat civil. I get heated like anyone else would but I try to avoid posting if I start to feel that way.
Look, my problem with this angle of manslaughter or murder and where it's okay with Bale versus Affleck is that it only applies if Batman is to be held accountable in a court. Batman is obviously not going to turn himself in as he believes in what he is doing. The audience has to decide where they stand and I find it to be hyporcritical to view one way that Batman kills over another as acceptable. Either results in a life lost caused by Batman which has for many years been a huge aspect of his character that he avoids at all costs. The rare times it happens it's like a huge event.
In both the Nolan movies and this version in BvS neither seems to remorseful about it. There are no scenes dedicated to it. The Nolan movies never state "only if I have to" accept for that weird "I don't have to save you" bit in Begins which really isn't the same anyway. Yea, Affleck's is crueler but both versions seem to not care about it. It's worse in the Nolan movies, in my opinion, because there are some lines about Batman's "one rule". It's a core theme in TDK and yet Batman is responsible for a few deaths in that movie. BvS never made any attempt to say this Batman had a direct issue with it.
The UC really improves the first two-thirds. Pacing feels right and the editing isn't jarring and rushed. The only thing is that the film feels sooooooooo fucking long especially if you've seen it before because the final act is exactly the same with only a couple brief scenes at the very end. I was so bored during the final fight since nothing there is different and it still pretty much sucks. Everything leading up to the Batman/Superman face-off though is significantly better and more palpable.
I was pretty "meh" on the film when it released in theaters. Saw it twice and would have rated it a solid 5/10 but now I'd be confident in giving it a 7. Still not great, just good.
Superman is given some very necessary scenes and Batman for the most part is no different in this cut, but I still dislike Luthor's portrayal. The UC develops his plan more coherently but man, is he just not Luthor. At glance, I liked the new bit where
I was pretty "meh" on the film when it released in theaters. Saw it twice and would have rated it a solid 5/10 but now I'd be confident in giving it a 7. Still not great, just good.
Superman is given some very necessary scenes and Batman for the most part is no different in this cut, but I still dislike Luthor's portrayal. The UC develops his plan more coherently but man, is he just not Luthor. At glance, I liked the new bit where
Luthor is unfit for trial and Batman tells him he'll be sent to Arkham, but then that just labels Luthor as basically a Batman villain who is just sent there because he's insane. He even looks worried when Batman tells him this as if he's scared. Luthor, in my mind, would react to that news in a confident manner and treat it as if it's all part of his master plan.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Yeaaaaaah, it's not even happening across town it's happening the next block over, that was pretty damn odd choice, like if Bruce didn't call were they just going to keep working?
Schweinehund
Member
The big things they cut was
The whole plot line of the lady testifying against Superman, it just showed her initial statements and no scenes beyond that. Basically the whole framing Superman line ended with her testimony.
A lot of Lois's investigation scenes, her plot line got butchered. Iirc she never established that the wheelchair was lined with led.
A lot of Superman stuff got cut, primarily his investigations into Batman & some conversations. He didn't get to say much in the TC.
A lot of Lois's investigation scenes, her plot line got butchered. Iirc she never established that the wheelchair was lined with led.
A lot of Superman stuff got cut, primarily his investigations into Batman & some conversations. He didn't get to say much in the TC.
I like the ultimate edition, though I can't say it's so much better than TC, it's a trade off. I enjoyed the film when it came out, still enjoy it. It did add alot of clarification to things I already inferred, but at the same time it lengthed the film and the first part is still dry on action. I don't think this cut would have done significantly better with critics/audiences.
So yeah, it's more coherent but at the same time it's excessively long and stuff like the knightmare sequence and the jl videos still feel out of place.
I think they should be less ambitious with JL and just focus on delivering action instead of juggling multiple plot lines, better to leave that to solo films.
Heh doesn't really bother me. Senate bombing and all that lead up to it far better here
Yeah you would not have had to tell me shit as soon as the space ship descended I would have got my shit and sprinted
Solid SOAP
Member
I'd like someone to edit out the random Justice League trailers from the middle of the movie and keep the UC stuff and see how it fares.
huh thanks for details. Yeah i guess i could see how that stuff would be cut, but i think this version definitely benefits from more breathing room. Being even more fast [paced than it already is would have been overkill on the senses.
There is an element of literalism to your reading of the film that leads to the different perspectives we have. Like, if we don't literally have a scene of remorse, how can we know it's there?
I don't need a scene of Nolan Batman going "I am so sorry I had to do that" because he demonstrates value for lives, even those of criminals, in various scenes. He demonstrates it for the random criminal Ra's tries to kill, his ambivalent feelings about Joe Chill despite wanting to have murdered him himself and then his further desire to want to bring Carmine Falcone into justice, with how he said he's learned to understand being a criminal wasn't a black and white morality affair when speaking to Ra's, with how he still respects Dent despite what he's done, with how he doesn't kill the Joke either time, with how he believes in good in Selina Kyle despite her betraying him. A significant portion of his character arc is set around dealing with how he values lives in basically all 3 movies.
So I don't need a literal scene of remorse becuase all the other scenes where Batman clealry shows value of life. In contrast, if you're a criminal, you're less than nothing to BvS Batman. In his scenes, he's depicted expressing cruelty, sadism, and power tripping, in addition to unnecessary deaths that he clearly could have avoided. So yes, the distinction between the premeditated act of willfully killing someone without need and having to kill in the head of battle is more than a legal distinction to me. Nolan's Batman clearly cares when people die. BvS does not. That is a whole WORLD of difference.
bishopcruz
Member
Going by the general Get out of Jail free card that vehicular Batman mayhem gets, there is practically no straight up intentional murder by Bats. Hell, the way the scenes are shot generally minimizes him being the direct cause of death except for three scenes. The first is the guy with the machine gun in the car, the second is the guys with the anti-air guns, and the last is KGBeast who one could argue is responsible because he pulled the trigger on his flamethrower and set it off.
The rest, I tend to go by the, no body, no death school of thought. We have a cut between the first car crash and the car getting grappled, we do not see anyone IN that car when it is being flung around. We see no one actually get crushed, by that same car, so they are likely pinned beneath.
Batfleck was based on DKR Batman, and is a pretty decent interpretation of that character. DKR Bats no longer gave a fuck. He would not go out of his way to kill people, and would make efforts to not kill them, but did not care about say, unloading a cannon into a crowd of mutants, or throwing a guy into a large light fixture and electrocuting the crap out of him.
As for the warehouse fight, save the KGBeast, he killed NO ONE, you can bleed from the head without dying.
Are some of these rationalizations? Sure, but they are the same ones that have been used for DECADES to get around heroes killing villains, specifically mooks who in no way should survive the punishment they receive, but almost always do.
I just can't stand people acting like Batman murders left and right, when if he did, the whole concept of the brand would be pointless, because he'd just kill them.