the anime man
Banned
The UC is definitely an improvement, but the film still isn't that awesome. The third act still sucks while the first two are a ton better.
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Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut |OT| - Men are still good (out now)
- Thread starter Ahasverus
- Start date
I think a better depiction of Batman is somewhere in the middle between the two. Batman has always been a bit cruel (maybe too much at times) but valued their life enough to not go all the way. Bale was a bit too tame for my tastes and Affleck was a bit too overwhelming in comparison.
This right here. The first two acts are the strongest elements of the movie now even if they are slower/longer but the 3rd act sticks out really badly now.
It's like a political thriller in the first half then the Incredible Hulk to finish it off. The Batman v Superman fight also is still total crap.
bishopcruz
Member
A lot of large offices have disaster plans set up in case people are caught in a natural disaster or something like a terrorist attack. The default plan might assume that it is safer in the building. I mean, Bruce plans for a lot of things, but I doubt he'd think of an alien invasion scenario pre Superman.
Yeah, I audibly sighed when Doomsday was being introduced because I checked the time stamp and there was still 40 minutes left.
I'm in a curious position.
I didn't hate the TC and defended it.
I watched the UC, and I can't say it's worse, it's more of the same.
But I didn't enjoy myself, a lot of awful flaws became noticeable.
I got pretty bored with the movie. Some lines and bad cgi really took me out of it too. That's weird.
Maybe I'm just a hipster and I wanted a rebellious opinion when it came out lmao.
I didn't hate the TC and defended it.
I watched the UC, and I can't say it's worse, it's more of the same.
But I didn't enjoy myself, a lot of awful flaws became noticeable.
I got pretty bored with the movie. Some lines and bad cgi really took me out of it too. That's weird.
Maybe I'm just a hipster and I wanted a rebellious opinion when it came out lmao.
MisterHero
Super Member
It would destroy the immediacy of the Metropolis destruction scene, but I kinda want to see how Bruce reacted to Zod's first transmission.
"You are not alone" sets up Batman in a world of metahumans, but with an evil bent that doesn't indicate Justice League. It would've piled onto his paranoia.
"You are not alone" sets up Batman in a world of metahumans, but with an evil bent that doesn't indicate Justice League. It would've piled onto his paranoia.
BadAss2961
Member
Baleman does exactly the same kind of killing Batfleck does. By just looking at the facts, you could just as easily make a half-assed case for Batfleck being the more merciful of the two...
Batfleck killed some guys during a Batmobile chase (hey, a maniac with a turret) -- so did Baleman, who was also turning over cop cars and just happened to get lucky that none of them died, conveniently pointed out by Alfred.
Batfleck reverses a grenade toss and backfires a flamethrower -- Baleman blows up the League of Shadows fortress.
Batfleck lets Superman and Lex live -- Baleman lets Ra's die.
Both ultimately kill when they have to. Snyder's version is just a bit more honest with its violence, and Bruce is unapologetic as part of the story with the current state he's in.
Batfleck killed some guys during a Batmobile chase (hey, a maniac with a turret) -- so did Baleman, who was also turning over cop cars and just happened to get lucky that none of them died, conveniently pointed out by Alfred.
Batfleck reverses a grenade toss and backfires a flamethrower -- Baleman blows up the League of Shadows fortress.
Batfleck lets Superman and Lex live -- Baleman lets Ra's die.
Both ultimately kill when they have to. Snyder's version is just a bit more honest with its violence, and Bruce is unapologetic as part of the story with the current state he's in.
Good for you? Because I'm confused what that has to do with the topic.
That's another reason I think we have problem communicating. Sudden shift of topics, or atleast my perception of it is such. This isn't the first time I feel it's happened when discussing things with you.
My understanding of the discussion was that it was centered around whether Nolan's Batman cared or not. You said that didn't think so and just thought Nolan's was 'nicer about it', but didn't truly care because there wasn't a specifically a scene of remorse. I pointed out all the scenes where it's established he has empathy for the criminals he fights, and the point of difference is that BvS is someone we'd be calling a monster in any other circumstance. Because the true distinction of a monster is that it simply doesn't care about the pain it wreaks on others, and simply delights in it's own satisfaction, a description that fits BvS's batman's well. The discussion is less opinion based, but more "what kind of scenes can we find that establish Batman's regard for criminals".
Now, out of no where, we're talking about what our personal tastes of Batman are in the abstract.
Okay, that's my last post. I'm about to watch the UC anyway.
"It's a little more manslaughter than murder."
We were done arguing so I made a general comment in relation. It's called having a conversation, Veelk. Unless you're opposed to that sort of thing and simply want to engage in arguments.
You do realize that the film agrees with you that Batman is in the wrong? That if not for Clark, he'd just be a rich asshole in a bat costume beating up bad guys because he can, which is pretty much nolan and Burton's Batman? Batman beats up criminals because he has no faith in anything else. Superman shows him that sometimes the means make all the difference in the end. This isn't to say he can't be brutal, but now he's not being self serving and beating up thugs for therapy sessions. Now he has drive and a goal other than the continual entropy that was Gotham.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
You consistently miss the point about Batman, and this isn't the first time that you keep making these incorrect assertions. Batman doesn't "beat up guys for therapy session." The whole reason he does what he does is because he's had enough of the mob corrupting the police force and legal system, as well as prevent people from experiencing what he experienced as a kid (aka thugs killing people for no reason).
I'd argue he does, or at least started out that way. The Batman was, on some level, an outlet for Bruce's rage.
Yeah, the opening scene is way too damn long, even discounting the silliness with the bats.
Fair enough. I thought it was a segway into another argument. Nevermind then.
That excuse has been bandied about since the film premiered and I still don't but it because while the official message is certainly "Batman is in the wrong", the way it's shot fetishizes and glorifies Batman for it rather than condemns him, and his turn to the light is only at the movie's very end, so he doesn't have a way of demonstrating his character development.
There was a discussion in the other thread, where it could have actually been pretty well depicted with the warehouse fight if he prioritized rescuing Martha over eliminating the thugs guarding her. By proving he is in fact valuing the life of the hostage more by making that the first thing he does, and then proceeding to beat up the bad guys. Or maybe not even bother, just getting Martha and GTFO'ing.
But then we'd have missed out him wrecking fools, right? Or, even better yet, making his first, absolutely, without a doubt, for sure, decisive kill of KGBeast. Batman's turn isn't shown as becoming merciful or anything, he's just now aiming his cannon at the right guy instead of superman. At no point did I feel he's reigned back his violence.
This was a thing even in watchmen. Zack Snyder loves his violence. Which is cool and all, I'm not fundamentally opposed to the fetishizing of violence, but I wish he wouldn't do it with my favorite superheroes and then call it high art.
Fair enough. I thought it was a segway into another argument. Nevermind then.
That excuse has been bandied about since the film premiered and I still don't but it because while the official message is certainly "Batman is in the wrong", the way it's shot fetishizes and glorifies Batman for it rather than condemns him, and his turn to the light is only at the movie's very end, so he doesn't have a way of demonstrating his character development.
There was a discussion in the other thread, where it could have actually been pretty well depicted with the warehouse fight if he prioritized rescuing Martha over eliminating the thugs guarding her. By proving he is in fact valuing the life of the hostage more by making that the first thing he does, and then proceeding to beat up the bad guys. Or maybe not even bother, just getting Martha and GTFO'ing.
But then we'd have missed out him wrecking fools, right? Or, even better yet, making his first, absolutely, without a doubt, for sure, decisive kill of KGBeast. Batman's turn isn't shown as becoming merciful or anything, he's just now aiming his cannon at the right guy instead of superman. At no point did I feel he's reigned back his violence.
This was a thing even in watchmen. Zack Snyder loves his violence. Which is cool and all, I'm not fundamentally opposed to the fetishizing of violence, but I wish he wouldn't do it with my favorite superheroes and then call it high art.
bishopcruz
Member
Adorable. Really.
Of course it has nothing to do with what I said, so I'll assume you just like quoting Snyder.
BadAss2961
Member
Bruce's whole arc in the movie is to go from savage back to that point where he started.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Saying it's therapy session implies that Bruce is partaking in self-improvement in some way. Or at the very least, that he's benefitting from a mental health perspective when he puts on the cowl. In actuality, his anger is so deep-rooted and pervasive that he never really improves, and arguably regresses. If anything, it's like you said, The Batman persona is an outlet for Bruce's anger, but to the extent that the anger never goes away.
How is that relevant to what I said?
His arc was his frustration at not having the tools he needed to solve the problem he had. He was aimless and indifferent while he was in that asian prison. Even then, he didn't go looking for fights, since the thug started a fight with him.
Once he had a clear, definitive way to solve his problem and clean up gotham, he was as even-tempered as anyone.
The issue you're missing isn't that Nolan's batman didn't feel anger and frustration, because obviously he did....but he never let it lead him into pointless cruelty. Not even to the prisoners of the asian prison. The most unnecessarily hostile thing he did to them was insult them.
If that was the case, we wouldn't have seen Batman quiver at the mention of his mom's name or her death replay out. This movie shows batman trying to retcon his family to make himself feel better, "They were hunters."
It's not fetishized at all, its shown in its brutality, which usually never happens when superheroes start throwing down. Again, its not about not killing, its about him having a goal other than beating dudes up everytime they make bail. The MCU fetishized violence so its clean and cool, stark even has weapons that cleanly only target bad guys, its ludicrous.
Corronchilejano
Member
So, I was weak and ordered this. Just how much extra is here, minute wise?
MegaManTrigger
Banned
IIRC, half an hour bumping it up to a 3hr run.
There's some level of satisfaction that obviously goes into it. A form of peace of mind that he will make a difference. Which can be seen as beneficial to his mental health. If not for the mission it's not too much of a stretch to assume he would only get worse. But I guess you can argue he's just relatively stable rather than improving or benefitting from what he does.
ShaoranWright
Member
I liked the film A LOT before, now I like it a hell lot more (eeven with the plot holes).
I'm definitely buying the bluray.
I'm definitely buying the bluray.
Snyder is VERY fetishistic in his violence. It pervades most, if not all, of his movies. I mean, this is what I mean about people spinning everything in a positive way. Every basic and obvious fact has to be fought for tooth and nail, urhgafgbag. I'd just like to call a spade a spade.
And marvel doesn't fetishize it, partially because it keeps it clean. The focus is on the maneuvering and tactics, while Snyder's films place emphasis on the pain the fighting inflicts.
BadAss2961
Member
I was referring to BvS, not the trilogy.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Retcon? He specifically said hunter in regards to how his ancestry made their fortune before Wayne Enterprises was a thing (exchanging pelts). Nothing about retconning his family life.
Even then, how is it at all relevant to what I mentioned about Batman? You're going off on a tangent.
Some people have a problem with this?
Well, then I already said why I don't buy that it's any less of an anger outlet for him now than it was before. It just came too late in the movie to depict except for the warehouse fight, and that could have happened just as easily in 'savage' mode.
I vaguely remember people complaining about the lack of care that went into his secret identity.
You have it backwards. Snyder doesn't frame any of his characters in a good light. Even on 300 he said you're not supposed to like these people , they kill babies for not being warrios. It's like Judge Dredd, he's fucking cool until you realize he can do what he wants in the name of the law. The MCU quips you into thinking they're the best and can do whatever with not remorse, Civil War drives this home with cap dropping a airport terminal on a 15 year old and physically beating his friend into submission. Tactics, lol, now I know we watch movies differently. Nothing in MCU is tactical, its paper rock scissors with no scissors.
So why not call them fur traders? Dude is playing the villian, melodramatically so.
It's a callback to 911. Some people didn't abandon the buildings until ordered in fear for their jobs.
I don't think you know what it means for something to be fetishized.
It doesn't mean "Depict as a moral postiive"
The thing with Snyder is he thinks violence is cool to have in his films. Which is ok, whatever, but doesn't seem to mesh with Batman.
'Wouldn't it be cool if Batman used one goons car as a wrecking ball against another goon's car' - I guess. 'What if he flipped a car over with machinegun fire, then drove through the wreck, causing a fiery explosion' - uh, Snyder...
It's among the reasons why I dislike BvS so much. It's a pillaging of comic books with a quiet disdain for the source material. 'My Batman would kill'. Ok, how about you create the rest of the character from scratch, instead of eating around the parts you don't like? 'I'll take the costume, and the gadgets, but not the no-kill rule', 'I'll take the flying, and the heat vision, but not the hopeful attitude'. Snyder takes bits and pieces, not realizing that it's the whole that makes for the compelling characters.
'Wouldn't it be cool if Batman used one goons car as a wrecking ball against another goon's car' - I guess. 'What if he flipped a car over with machinegun fire, then drove through the wreck, causing a fiery explosion' - uh, Snyder...
It's among the reasons why I dislike BvS so much. It's a pillaging of comic books with a quiet disdain for the source material. 'My Batman would kill'. Ok, how about you create the rest of the character from scratch, instead of eating around the parts you don't like? 'I'll take the costume, and the gadgets, but not the no-kill rule', 'I'll take the flying, and the heat vision, but not the hopeful attitude'. Snyder takes bits and pieces, not realizing that it's the whole that makes for the compelling characters.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
That's the way I see it to be honest. I think the driving force of what he does is the injustice in his society, and how everyone is too apathetic/powerless to do anything about it. Otherwise, he's a relatively stable man inside and out of the cowl. With regards to mental health, If you look at it strictly from Bruce's perspective, then you see satisfaction, but objectively, you see a man engaging in self-destructive behaviour due to this need to be saviour of Gotham. Batman is basically the Messiah Complex personified and on steroids, which in and of itself is not a healthy place to be in, mentally.
You're reading that line too literally. Hunter doesn't always have a connotation of being villainous, it's also a word that represented livelihood in the old days. In context, he's talking about how he compares his own legacy to those that preceded him (particularly how Wayne Enterprises was founded vs. what Bruce Wayne seeks to do to justify having a legacy). Again, I still fail to see how that's relevant to your original point.
This is a good summation of my thoughts. Consequently, the film has nearly turned me off any prospective DCEU films because of the foundation that has been laid by him and his production team.
You posted on this before, and we are aligned in a lot of our opinions, but I actually disagree with the central criticism that writers should not be allowed to 'eat around' the stuff he doesn't want to deal with, so to speak.
I'm a big comic book reader, but I don't see adaptations as having any obligation to keep to one particular set of characterizations for their material. My goal here isn't to have a faithful adaptation, just a good one. As such, if it is for the purposes of making a good story, I give any director free reign to cut out the parts they don't like.
If it is for the purposes of making a good story. The ultimate thing that gets me down about BvS isn't that it's not my batman or superman, it's just that Batman is such an uncompelling character in his absolute assholishness. Snyder's obsession with violence would pervade an original movie as well as an adaptation. It would make him easier to ignore, since I probably wouldn't want to watch that film then, but it wouldn't make the film any better for not betraying any source material that was less violent.
I'm sure there is a good film of Batman vs Superman where Batman is a violent sadist....you could argue The Dark Knight Returns itself is an example...so it's not the character elements themselves that are the problem, but Zack Snyder's inability to write a compelling narrative.
Man why would you want to watch the UC if you hate the tone, characters and underlying story points so much? I would not recommend the UC to anyone who greatly dislikes the original.
I would only recommend to those who liked it but thought it could've been better or those who were in the middle. This cut is not going to make a full 180 on people's opinion on the movie.
SirPinkyNose
Member
TC was a Batman movie with Superman in it.
UC is a Superman movie with Batman in it.
UC is a Superman movie with Batman in it.
BadAss2961
Member
I could see this being a problem if it was like Burton Batman, as in the added bits of killing and cool violence is just what he does. But Batman is unhinged in BvS. There's a story behind his 'new rules', but they're only temporary. A one movie thing where Snyder indulges a bit while he has the chance.
I think Snyder learnt a lot from filming BvS. He might see now that emotional violence hits harder than flashes and fire. The
was brutal in the UC, it elicits a response, so does the reenacted Metropolis fight because it's brought down to earth.
My only hope is that WB/Snyder/Terrio hadn't mess up with the Justice League script too much to make it unrecognizable. There is still good in BvS as shown by the UC. A complete, reactive departure should not be the next step.
senate bombing
My only hope is that WB/Snyder/Terrio hadn't mess up with the Justice League script too much to make it unrecognizable. There is still good in BvS as shown by the UC. A complete, reactive departure should not be the next step.
I felt it's a natural balance between the two.
Honestly, they should have just called the movie "Dawn of Justice", and completely dropped the Batman V Superman title. The movie is about way more than just Bats and Supes duking it out, and the Dawn of Justice title captures what the movie is about fairly well.
Curiousity, mostly, see how much it improved. To refresh my memory of it for the purposes of debating, since I've only seen it once while very tired.
But mostly, I've very rarely not watched something just because I didn't like it. My personal enjoyment is such an unimportant factor when it comes to viewing art of any kind, whether it's movies, tv, comics, books, etc. Do you know how long I stuck with Arrow before finally throwing in the towel? I think it was close to 80 episodes. In addition to the rest of the arrowverse. Do you know from when I hated the Arrow show? Episode 1. Maybe it was episode 3 before I hated Arrow more than I ever hated BvS. And there hasn't been a single episode in either Arrow, Flash or anything that I can say is good. I'm also currently reading the Wheel of Time series, which is 14 books of pure, unmitigated bullshit. And I've basically played every god of war game atleast once, the main trilogy twice, and I'm positive an action game fan like yourself saw atleast one of my posts on GoW and know my feelings on that series. I can provide links if you don't.
So yeah. Asking why I watch something if I hate it is like asking why do fish swim if cars produce carbon monoxide. Those things are barely, if at all, related for me.
As I'm sure I would have said before, my problem is less having an interpretation, but more having that interpretation and still drawing from the well of the character's source material without considering how your interpretation changes things. It isn't that he has a take on Batman and Superman, but that he decides to have that unique 'deconstructed' take and still use elements that belong to different, more traditional depictions of the character - he tries to have his cake and eat it too. He wants a Batman who is nonplussed about killing, and yet he doesn't want a Batman who carries a gun. He wants a Superman who the world has confused feelings towards, and yet
one that is respected enough to be given a military funeral, as a bonafide hero
Do you like stuff, too? I mean, to say thee isn't a single episode of "Arrow, Flash, or anything" that you can say is good seems pretty crazy to me.
About the second thing, even if you don't LIKE the moment, you can't confuse the ideals of Batman pre-"Martha" and post-"Martha". That moment changed his attitude towards Superman, regardless of whether you think it was a WORTHY moment for him to change or not. About Batman's killings, I don't like a Batman who kills so often, but it's showed very clearly that this is a version of Batman 20 years down the line at his darkest and lowest time.
They are very, very bad shows.
But yes, I like stuff. I just usually see it as important as disliking stuff. Meaning, not very.
I guess I see what you mean. I just imagine that Snyder is the kind of guy who craves for the Dark Age of comics to return, since that's where he seems to be most at home.
That is still a pointless glorification of the military I simply don't understand. Like, if we have a local hero sacrifice himself for someone else, they are not anointed as Military post-mortum. And I think it's kind of a creepy thing to do someone.
Really enjoyed the theatrical cut but loving the Ultimate Edition version. I do agree that if you had issues with the editing and felt some things weren't explained well then you should give this a watch. If you hated the tone or themes or just the general idea of the film then it's not going to change your mind. I think those people were the minority. I still think the majority were okay with the film and their like greatly depending on how big certain issues were for them. So from just being okay with the film to loving it. So I think most people, the majority's opinions should and will improve when they watch the Ultimate Edition.
Sounds like you just want to watch and sit through crappy movies/games/comics to hate on them online.
That 3 hour runtime of UC BvS could instead be used to watch two reasonably good movies and you won't have to spend hours trying to tell people how much you don't like this Batman/Superman.
That 3 hour runtime of UC BvS could instead be used to watch two reasonably good movies and you won't have to spend hours trying to tell people how much you don't like this Batman/Superman.