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[elhav]

Actually i do know how it is to live under these circumstances. My family lives in a village that is next to the border with Israel, so you can understand why our oppinions on the matter will differ greatly. I dob't believe that many of those covilians that god killed were hamas activists, as in that they do any work for hamas. And quite frankly i do believe that Israel does not give a damn about civilian casualties, and that idea increases with each bombing and is not obly based on the current conflict.

Edit: aw crap, typing on my iphone does not do well for my grammar.

But if Israel wanted to actively kill civilians, why wouldn't the IDF strike random buldings and be done with it? Surely there should have been tens of thousands of casualties by now, if Israel was indeed targeting innocents, wouldn't you say?

 

[collige]

But if Israel wanted to actively kill civilians, why wouldn't the IDF strike random buldings and be done with it? Surely there should have been tens of thousands of casualties by now, if Israel was indeed targeting innocents, wouldn't you say?

He didn't say they're trying to kill civilians, he's saying they don't care if they do.

 

[Linkhero1]

But if Israel wanted to actively kill civilians, why wouldn't the IDF strike random buldings and be done with it? Surely there should have been tens of thousands of casualties by now, if Israel was indeed targeting innocents, wouldn't you say?

His point is that they do not care about civilians at all. They're going all out and they do not care how many civilians die from this.

 

[nib95]

Attended the protests in my local town today. A few hundreds turned up. Wish I was still in London, saw the news, updates, tweets etc. Looks like thousands turned up to that one, to protest in-front of the Israeli embassy. Really diverse crowds, including lots of orthadox jews.

I thought this particular image was powerful.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...otest-against-israeli-aggression-9601565.html

 

[elhav]

He didn't say they're trying to kill civilians, he's saying they don't care if they do.

But then you have to consider the fact Hamas are using people as human shields, and then wonder if said civilians were not allowed to run away and such.

I understand why people are mad at Israel, but it seems so far that the IDF is trying its best to not hit civilians. It happens, and innocents die, but what other possible action can Israel take?

 

[LNBL]

But if Israel wanted to actively kill civilians, why wouldn't the IDF strike random buldings and be done with it? Surely there should have been tens of thousands of casualties by now, if Israel was indeed targeting innocents, wouldn't you say?

Would be difficult to claim only hitting "strategic locations" if they would just bomb any building they see. Sure, there could be several Hamas soldiers hiding there, but the majority surrounding that area will be palestinian casualities. So don't tell me they do care when they mostly kill civilians during these bombings.

 

[elhav]

Would be difficult to claim only hitting "strategic locations" if they would just bomb any building they see. Sure, there could be several Hamas soldiers hiding there, but the majority surrounding that area will be palestinian casualities. So don't tell me they do care when they mostly kill civilians during these bombings.

I would like you to back that claim.

 

[Chariot]

Indeed you are correct. But what can we do? What can our government possibly do? Stay quiet? Let them keep shooting at us? If you have a better idea, now is the time to suggest it. Or rather, if there was a better idea, our government would have tried to execute it years ago.

That solution you are probably thinking about right now is a written agreementm yes?
Peace. Such a nice word. But unfortunately Hamas are extreme muslims who do not wish for an agreement. Our own government is currently right wing, so you can be sure they will not give the Palestinians whatever they desire and demand.

The solution for this conflict is yet to be found. Even after a cease fire will be achieved, the rockets will come flying in a year or two, as it has always been.

Accept a sovereign state of Palestina under the condition that the government tracks down and stop terroristattacks. Help the palestinan people to rebuild ecucation and health. It can't be more expensive than the permanent use of the Iron Dome.

You're not living in palestina, as in this thread posted, people there are under fear too. Warnings come not reliable or too late and the civlists are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they defy the Hamas, they die. If they don't defy them, they die.

 

[LNBL]

I would like you to back that claim.

You seem to think most casualities are Hamas activists. What do you regard as being an activist? Is that someone that actually works for Hamas or also people that are happy someone is fighting for their human rights but who don't have any interaction with this group in regards to picking up weapons and fighting.

 

[nib95]

But then you have to consider the fact Hamas are using people as human shields, and then wonder if said civilians were not allowed to run away and such.

I understand why people are mad at Israel, but it seems so far that the IDF is trying its best to not hit civilians. It happens, and innocents die, but what other possible action can Israel take?

The action of not consistently pursuing aggressive expansion and land theft, in constantly destroying Palestinian homes, and displacing countless Palestinians, in a bid to expand their illegal settlements and take over more Palestinian land. Something that Israel has done almost each and every single week and month, for the last several years.

 

[titusandronicus]

It seems to be that Hamas's inefficency and low grade weaponry help to make them seem not as bad. Israel has no casualities as of yet, but only because of Israel's high tech defense combined with Hamas's lack of resources. Over 500 rockets have been fired at Israel since July the 8th, which is a lot. Some of these have ended up in all manner of places such as schools and nurserys.

People on social media talk about how many Israel has killed...without the context of what has been attempted by Hamas. Although I may sound like I'm going way off topic, but this sort of thinking seems to permeate throughout sport as well. Especially football. What is done counts a lot more than what hasn't been done, or prevented.

 

[Partial Gamification]

It seems to be that Hamas's inefficency and low grade weaponry help to make them seem not as bad. Israel has no casualities as of yet, but only because of Israel's high tech defense combined with Hamas's lack of resources. Over 500 rockets have been fired at Israel since July the 8th, which is a lot. Some of these have ended up in all manner of places such as schools and nurserys.

People on social media talk about how many Israel has killed...without the context of what has been attempted by Hamas. Although I may sound like I'm going way off topic, but this sort of thinking seems to permeate throughout sport as well. Especially football. What is done counts a lot more than what hasn't been done, or prevented.

Iron Dome only shoots at what is headed toward a populated area. David's Sling should be deployed soon and its not going to be the last bit of protective measures built to defend Israel.

How many Israelis have died from this Hamas onslaught? How real is this threat to Israel?

The death toll and the list of the names of the deceased were provided to al-Akhbar and are republished below. The names of the children whose ages have been identified are marked in bold.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-are-the-names-of-13-children-killed-in-gaza/

This "defensive operation" is a sham, and calling it such makes you look like a lying schmuck. This won't end the rocket attacks, it will produce another generation of terrorists.

 

[JordanN]

You find it annoying that people say they are killing civilians? 100 casualties so far of which mostly civilians and you find it annoying. Do you really think they give a shit about the palestinian people? These smart bombs are still getting fired at public places.

Israel has a right to defend itself. When a country goes to war, their hatred is always directed at those in power, not the people who live under it. Why do you think ultimatums are always directed at a government instead of Joe Farmer?

I can find you a video but there's a documentary of some IDF soldiers who fought in the 2006 Lebanon war. There's none of this backseat general talk going on here. They have to put their lives on the line when dealing with terrorists. They enter a building, go room for room, even announcing their presence. Guess who hides in these rooms? The terrorists. It's a nerve racking experience when your enemy literally disguises themselves as civilians.

Mistakes do happen in war but sometimes it's not without good reason. There was a controversial bombing in 2006 when a bomb hit an apartment complex. Yet videos showed Hezbollah literally parked their rocket launchers right next to it and the terrorist fled into the area.

 

[nib95]

It seems to be that Hamas's inefficency and low grade weaponry help to make them seem not as bad. Israel has no casualities as of yet, but only because of Israel's high tech defense combined with Hamas's lack of resources. Over 500 rockets have been fired at Israel since July the 8th, which is a lot. Some of these have ended up in all manner of places such as schools and nurserys.

People on social media talk about how many Israel has killed...without the context of what has been attempted by Hamas. Although I may sound like I'm going way off topic, but this sort of thinking seems to permeate throughout sport as well. Especially football. What is done counts a lot more than what hasn't been done, or prevented.

The exchange of rocket fire is not the main issue and never has been. It's just a cursory PR blanket Israel refer to every time they need to destroy more of Palestine. The key issue in this conflict is, and always has been the illegal occupation of Palestine and the continued illegal settlements and further aggressive expansion in to Palestinian territories. That's the part the media and people likes to ignore, and pretend doesn't happen or isn't the root cause of tensions, despite it happening week in week out.

Israel has a right to defend itself.

Israel has been stealing Palestinian land for decades, destroying hundreds and hundreds of structures and displacing thousands of Palestinians, and you think Israel is the one that has the right to defend itself? What about Palestine's right to defend itself against the illegal occupation and constant expansion? Would you not defend yourself if your home, your friends homes, your relatives homes, your neighbours homes, your countrymen's homes, were being destroyed and stolen right before your eyes? And you forced in to homelessness, hunger, a life of no infrastructure or prospects, no support network, not even basic human rights? What would YOU do?

 

[elhav]

Accept a sovereign state of Palestina under the condition that the government tracks down and stop terroristattacks. Help the palestinan people to rebuild ecucation and health. It can't be more expensive than the permanent use of the Iron Dome.

You're not living in palestina, as in this thread posted, people there are under fear too. Warnings come not reliable or too late and the civlists are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they defy the Hamas, they die. If they don't defy them, they die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_I_Accord

Israel tried it at the time. It only gave us the second Intifadda and suicide bombings from 2001 to 2005. No one was safe back then.

So Israel built the West bank barrier, and then giving the Palestinians Yehuda and Shomron. Didn't stop the rockets.

Your suggestions have been discussed endlessly here, and it just never came to be. Either one side was not reluctant to agree, or it was both sides.

You seem to think most casualities are Hamas activists. What do you regard as being an activist? Is that someone that actually works for Hamas or also people that are happy someone is fighting for their human rights but who don't have any interaction with this group in regards to picking up weapons and fighting.

No, I was talking about Hamas soldiers only. Also, IDF bombs buildings where Hamas is gathering or storing weapons etc.

The action of not consistently pursuing aggressive expansion and land theft, in constantly destroying Palestinian homes, and displacing countless Palestinians, in a bid to expand their illegal settlements and take over more Palestinian land. Something that Israel has done almost each and every single week and month, for the last several years.

This expansion keeps getting stopped by our legal department, so most of the new illegal settlements are being ruined eventually. It costs more to Israel than it does to the Palestinians, believe me. Be it dead soldiers and shootings from the other side.

Netaniahu is quite the idiot, I agree. Instead of giving a specific order to stop the settlements from the start, the legal department has to do the dirty work later on.

Israel is usually destroying Palestinians' homes when they are either illegal, or when/if they belong to a terrorist etc.

 

[EightBitNate]

It seems to be that Hamas's inefficency and low grade weaponry help to make them seem not as bad. Israel has no casualities as of yet, but only because of Israel's high tech defense combined with Hamas's lack of resources. Over 500 rockets have been fired at Israel since July the 8th, which is a lot. Some of these have ended up in all manner of places such as schools and nurserys.

People on social media talk about how many Israel has killed...without the context of what has been attempted by Hamas. Although I may sound like I'm going way off topic, but this sort of thinking seems to permeate throughout sport as well. Especially football. What is done counts a lot more than what hasn't been done, or prevented.

I think this video posted a couple pages ago is a good argument.

There is a difference between intent and effect. Absolutely no one thinks Hamas is completely innocent. However, you have to realize that they've done very little compared to what the IDF have done. There comes a point when you have to stop dropping bombs on a nation that can't do anything to back up its threats.

 

[LNBL]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_I_Accord

Israel tried it at the time. It only gave us the second Intifadda and suicide bombings from 2001 to 2005. No one was safe back then.

So Israel build the West bank barrier, and then giving the Palestinians Yehuda and Shomron. Didn't stop the rockets.

Your suggestions have been discussed endlessly here, and it just never came to be. Either one side was not reluctant to agree, or it was both sides.


No, I was talking about Hamas soldiers only. Also, IDF bombs buildings where Hamas is gathering or storing weapons etc.

This expansion keeps getting stopped by our legal department, so most of the new illegal settlements are being ruined eventually. It costs more to Israel than it does to the Palestinians, believe me. Be it dead soldiers and shootings from the other side.

Netaniahu is quite the idiot, I agree. Instead of giving a specific order to stop the settlements from the start, the legal department has to do the dirty work later on.

Israel is usually destroying Palestinians' homes when they are either illegal, or when/if they belong to a terrorist etc.

Were these terrorist that you talk about also gathering on that beach and watching football in plain sight when they got attacked without any of those polite warnings?

 

[nib95]

This expansion keeps getting stopped by our legal department, so most of the new illegal settlements are being ruined eventually. It costs more to Israel than it does to the Palestinians, believe me. Be it dead soldiers and shootings from the other side.

Utter bullshit. How can you even live with yourself in saying such crap. Compare Palestine and it's territory today, compared to even 67. Their land is being taken away from them before our very eyes.

The side to it that most of the world doesn't see is a detailed perspective of what fuel's the tensions and clashes in the first place.

Here's some official reports from The UN of occurrences in Palestine over the last few months and years. They release these weekly and it's been the same story for years and years. You can see Israel has been systematically driving Palestinians out of their homes to make way for further illegal settlements on a weekly basis, displacing hundreds, leading to countless deaths and hundreds of injuries.

There is also a consistent and massively disproportionate level of violence and vandalism aimed at Palestinians and their land, from Israeli settlers comparative to the same inflicted on Israeli settlements from Palestinians.

http://www.ochaopt.org/reports.aspx?id=104

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 17 - 23 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_26_english.pdf

4 Palestinians killed.
100 Palestinians injured.
340 Palestinians arrested.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
42 Palestinians displaced this week.
Multiple Palestinian charitable organisations closed.

Additionally, a total of 106 Palestinians, including 28 children, were injured during the clashes, including by rubber-coated metal bullets (37) and live ammunition (18), or treated due to physical assault (30) or tear gas inhalation (20) or after being hit by a tear gas canister (1). Over half the injuries occurred in clashes, mostly at night, which took place in refugee camps:

The main affected association was Hebron’s Islamic Charitable Organization. On 20 June, Israeli forces raided the headquarters of the organization, confiscated equipment, sealed the main door and affixed on it a closure order in force through the end of 2014. Three of the organization’s branches in the Hebron governorate (Ash Shyyoukh, Bani Naim and Beit Ula) were also raided. The organization employs 680 staff and provides assistance to some 6,000 beneficiaries, including in the areas of education, food, shelter, and social safety nets for poor families.

Other affected Islamic associations, which were raided and had equipment confiscated, included the Muslim Youth Association (Hebron), which runs 12 schools across the Hebron governorate (3,500 students), the Medical Islamic Relief, in Jenin, the Zakat charitable society in Tulkarm, and a small charitable society and women’s association in East Jerusalem; the latter two were also shut down.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 10 - 16 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_19_english.pdf

1 Palestinian killed.
72 Palestinians injured.
200 Palestinians arrested.
3 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
Movement restrictions to Palestinian supplies, markets and work places.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 3 - 9 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_13_english.pdf

33 Palestinians injured.
5 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
35 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 27 May - 2 June 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_6_06_english.pdf

1 Palestinian Killed
84 Palestinians injured.
14 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
100 Palestinians affected by demolishing and/or damages.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 20 - 26 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_30_english.pdf

22 Palestinians injured.
100 Palestinians arrested.
Over 100 people displaced by demolitions to make way for military trainings in the Jordan Valley.
40 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
70 Palestinians displaced.

Also this week, the Spokesperson for the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights stated that according to the initial findings of an investigation it carried out, the killing of two Palestinian boys in a demonstration near Jerusalem by Israeli forces last week, “may amount to extrajudicial executions under human rights law as well as willful killings under international humanitarian law”.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 13 - 19 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_22_english.pdf

2 Palestinian boys killed
64 Palestinians injured.
Wave of demolitions and displacement in and around the e1 area, east of Jerusalem
20 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
40 Palestinians displaced.

This area, which includes 18 residential sites (2,800 people), has been identified as a priority for the implementation of an official Israeli plan to “relocate” most Bedouin communities across Area C to a limited number of sites. Most of this area has been allocated for the expansion of Israeli settlements, including the E1 plan, as well as planned to be surrounded by the Barrier around Ma’ale Adumim settlement. The UN Secretary General has previously expressed concern that the implementation of these “relocation” plans may amount to forcible transfer, in contravention of international law.

Also this week, on 18 May, Israeli forces dismantled and confiscated three donor-funded residential tents, along with a cement mixer, in Tell al Khashabah Bedouin community in Nablus, displacing 27 people, including 18 children, for the third time in three weeks. The tents were provided in response to last week’s demolitions. Stop-work orders were issued against two structures in the same community, as well as against 15 residential structures, eight of which were provided by an international donor, and eight animal shelters in Khirbet Ghuwein al Fauqa (Hebron).

Also in Hebron, in an Area C section of Idhna town, Israeli forces tore down and removed six electricity poles supplying 15 households, on the grounds that they were installed without permits.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 6 - 12 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_15_english.pdf

43 Palestinians injured.
11 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
27 Palestinians displaced.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 29 April - 5 May 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_5_08_english.pdf

42 Palestinians injured.
Over 180 Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers
21 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
39 Palestinians displaced.

This week, the Israeli authorities demolished 21 Palestinian-owned structures in Area C and two others in East Jerusalem, displacing 39 people, including 23 children, and affecting 20 others.

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 15 - 28 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_17_english.pdf

110 Palestinians injured (24 children).
Hundreds of Palestinian Olive tree's damaged by Israeli settlers.
Palestinian families at imminent risk of forcible transfer.
Iissuance of eviction and demolition orders continue.

On 28 April, the Israeli authorities handed over eviction orders to three Palestinian families, comprising 29 people, including 18 children, in the Sateh al Bahr Bedouin community (Jericho). Additional families in the same community might be at similar risk, since a fourth eviction order, which contains no names, was also delivered to the community.

The orders were issued on grounds that the community reportedly exists in an area designated as a “closed military zone”. According to residents, Sateh al Bahr community has existed in its current location since the early 1970s. It includes 12 households, comprising 68 people, of whom 39 are children. The recent developments take place in the context of an Israeli plan to “relocate” most Bedouin communities across Area C of the West Bank to a limited number of sites. This plan will apply to the affected community, along with 18 communities (2,800 people) located in the eastern Jerusalem Governorate, in an area allocated for the expansion of Israeli settlements

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 8 - 14 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_16_english.pdf

94 Palestinians injured.
15 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
43 Palestinians displaced.

the east of Jerusalem at risk of forced displacement due to an official ‘relocation plan’ advanced by the Israeli authorities. This area has been allocated for the expansion of Israeli settlements.

There are at least 200 donor-funded structures, including residential caravans, in theJerusalem area, with either stop-work or demolition orders, with an estimated cost exceeding 1 million shekels

---

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 1 - 7 April 2014
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/oc...civilians_weekly_report_2014_4_10_english.pdf

52 Palestinians injured.
Hundreds of Palestinian-owned olive trees damaged by Israeli settlers.
50 Palestinian structures destroyed this week.
93 Palestinians displaced.

During this week Israeli forces demolished a total of 50 structures. The demolitions led to the displacement of 93 people, half of whom were children, and affected 118 others.

Over half of this week’s demolitions took place on 1 April in the Jordan Valley, affecting the herding communities of Humsa al Buqai’a (14 structures), Al Ja’wana (13), Jiftlik/Abu al ‘Ajaj (2) and Husma al Basaliya (1). These demolitions bring the total number of structures demolished and people displaced in the Jordan Valley since the beginning of the year to over 130 and 250, respectively.

---

And this occurs week in week out, irrespective of any action from Hamas, or the actions of Palestinians. Ceasefire or not, periods of peace of not, the settlement expansion and the displacement of Palestinians continues.

And speaking of settlements, Three new West Bank outposts erected.

That picture about sums it up. Look at the now massive illegal (under international law, and as recognised by the international community) Israeli settlement of Beitar Illit, and all the surrounding settlements. Now look at the dotted line around the settlements, which symbolises they are going to build another massive barrier there, cordoning off yet another big chunk of Palestine to Israel. And Palestinian villages such as Al-Jab'a, Wadi Fukin, Husan and others are still in it!

Then look at all the other blue settlements. It's very meticulous the way they are trying to systematically take over Palestine, spreading almost like an ant farm. It's obviously strategic and very calculated.

 

[LNBL]

Israel has a right to defend itself. When a country goes to war, their hatred is always directed at those in power, not the people who live under it. Why do you think ultimatums are always directed at a government instead of Joe Farmer?

I can find you a video but there's a documentary of some IDF soldiers who fought in the 2006 Lebanon war. There's none of this backseat general talk going on here. They have to put their lives on the line when dealing with terrorists. They enter a building, go room for room, even announcing their presence. Guess who hides in these rooms? The terrorists. It's a nerve racking experience when your enemy literally disguises themselves as civilians.

Mistakes do happen in war but sometimes it's not without good reason. There was a controversial bombing in 2006 when a bomb hit an apartment complex. Yet videos showed Hezbollah literally parked their rocket launchers right next to it and the terrorist fled into the area.

I don't need any information on that war in 2006, I know all i need about it and i won't forget how i followed the news everyday praying for my people in Lebanon.

What does mistakes of war have to do with the topic we are discussing in this thread, unless you are seriously claiming that the civilian casualities could be a honest mistake. Which i really hope you are not doing.

 

[Jacobi]

It's pretty crazy that a state with 8,1 mio. inhabitants is causing that much bullshit.
Britain should have never given this land up, would have been for the greater good.

 

[JordanN]

I don't need any information on that war in 2006, I know all i need about it and i won't forget how i followed the news everyday praying for my people in Lebanon.

What does mistakes of war have to do with the topic we are discussing in this thread, unless you are seriously claiming that the civilian casualities could be a honest mistake. Which i really hope you are not doing.

The sweeping generalization that self defense = deliberately killing civilians has to go away.
I already explained the reasons why they die, and that Israel follows rules of engagement before they can even kill anyone.

If you still think "Israel doesn't care about Palestinian lives" then I have nothing more else to say.

 

[Chariot]

It's pretty crazy that a state with 8,1 mio. inhabitants is causing that much bullshit.
Britain should have never given this land up, would have been for the greater good.

Hold your horses.
I think the state of Israel is something that should be allowed exist. But so should the state of Palestina.

 

[elhav]

Were these terrorist that you talk about also gathering on that beach and watching football in plain sight when they got attacked without any of those polite warnings?

When did this happen? Can I have a source?

Utter bullshit. How can you even live with yourself in saying such crap. Compare Palestine and it's territory today, compared to even 67. Their land is being taken away from them before our very eyes.

You mean, the extremists Israelis that are vandalizing Palestinians' property and expanding illegally are representing Israel as a whole?

If we look at all the areas that so called "belonged" to palestinians than most of our country is so called occupied.
And of course, you are ignoring the riots caused by the Palestinians, ignoring the fact they shoot at civilians which is causing our forces to stop it from happening etc. It's nice to see the world from one point of view huh?

I won't say Israel is pure and without any responsibility, but I say that our country usually tries its best. Imagine how many people would have been killed if our government truly wouldn't have given a shit about civilian casualties.

 

[Chariot]

When did this happen? Can I have a source?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/11/w...-cafe-finds-patrons-poised-for-world-cup.html

You can find many other sources, it was somewhat big everywhere.
Although I could see Israel telling their people nothing about that.

 

[nib95]

It's pretty crazy that a state with 8,1 mio. inhabitants is causing that much bullshit.
Britain should have never given this land up, would have been for the greater good.

I agree. But the pressure from Jews and Arabs at the time was humungous. Facing violence from both parties, the British were having a hard time justifying maintaining the control of the land. You also had Jewish terrorist organisations like Irgun and Lehi running rampage, even being responsible for the death of many British.

The Irgun began bombing Palestinian Arab civilian targets in 1938.[6] While the Palestinian Arabs were "carefully disarmed" by the British Mandatory authorities by 1939, the Zionists were not.

After the beginning of World War II, the Haganah and Irgun suspended their activity against the British in support of their war against Nazi Germany.[8] The smaller Lehi continued anti-British attacks and direct action throughout the war. At that time, the British also supported the creation and the training of Palmach, as a unit that could withstand a German offensive in the area, with the consent of Yishuv which saw an opportunity to get trained units and soldiers for the planned Jewish state[citation needed] and during 1944-1945, the most mainstream Jewish paramilitary organization, Haganah, cooperated with the British authorities against the Lehi and Etzel.[9]

After World War II, between 1945 and the 29 November 1947 Partition vote, British soldiers and policemen were targeted by Irgun and Lehi. Haganah and Palmah first collaborated with the British against them, particularly during the Hunting Season, before actively joining them in the Jewish Resistance Movement, then finally choosing an official neutral position after 1946 while the Irgun and the Lehi went on their attacks against the British.[citation needed]

The Haganah carried out violent attacks in Palestine, such as the liberation of interned immigrants from the Atlit camp, the bombing of the country's railroad network, sabotage raids on radar installations and bases of the British Palestine police. It also continued to organize illegal immigration.[citation needed].

In February 1947, the British announced that they would end the mandate and withdraw from Palestine and they asked the arbitration of the United Nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence

 

[elhav]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/11/w...-cafe-finds-patrons-poised-for-world-cup.html

You can find many other sources, it was somewhat big everywhere.
Although I could see Israel telling their people nothing about that.

Shameful and terrible thing it is, I do admit. I really haven't heard of it untill now.
Thanks for the source.

 

[nib95]

When did this happen? Can I have a source?

You mean, the extremists Israelis that are vandalizing Palestinians' property and expanding illegally are representing Israel as a whole?

If we look at all the areas that so called "belonged" to palestinians than most of our country is so called occupied.

Please don't feed me your warped nationalistic view of things. I gave you the UN links. Read them. There is a report for every single week spanning back years.

What you'll notice is that Israel has been responsible for the demolition of Palestinian structures and the displacement of countless Palestinians for years and years. The only breaks they have taken from such illegal expansion programmes has been a few weeks here and there during ceasefires, otherwise they have persisted with such programmes almost every week for the least several years. 2013 seeing an increase in such settlement programmes.

The extremist settlers aren't the one's coming with a military and army, tanks, reinforced bulldozers and all the rest. That is the Israeli army destroying more Palestinian land by order of the Israeli government, to pave the way for more illegal settlements, which they are ever expanding, and even incentivising Israeli's to go and live in.

There is a reason images like this exist.

 

[elhav]

Please don't feed me your warped nationalistic view of things. I gave you the UN links. Read them. There is a report for every single week spanning back years.

What you'll notice is that Israel has been responsible for the demolition of Palestinian structures and the displacement of countless Palestinians for years and years. The only breaks they have taken from such illegal expansion programmes has been a few weeks here and there during ceasefires, otherwise they have persisted with such programmes almost every week for the least several years. 2013 seeing an increase in such settlement programmes.

The extremist settlers aren't the one's coming with a military and army, tanks, reinforced bulldozers and all the rest. That is the Israeli army destroying more Palestinian land by order of the Israeli government, to pave the way for more illegal settlements, which they are ever expanding, and even incentivising Israeli's to go and live in.

Never said I was for it. Our government is right wing, which means Netaniahu caves in to members of the Knesset like Benett and allows these things. He has no balls.

That being said, both Palestinians and Israelis are settling in illegal areas. Some of us have to endure a constant rain of molotoves and rocks, even if we aren't responsible for the actions of some in our country.

It comes from both sides.

That picture proves nothing. If you would learn history properly you would know there was no such country called Palestine, and that the parts that were occupied were taken after a war between Israel and the Arabs, at a time they were threatening to take back their so called "country".

I am not right wing, but I know that the idea of a palestinian state before Israel was bullshit, and never existed.

 

[nib95]

Never said I was for it. Our government is right wing, which means Netaniahu caves in to members of the Knesset like Benett and allows these things. He has no balls.
That being said, both Palestinians and Israelis are settling in illegal areas. Some of us have to endure a constant rain of molotoves and rocks, even if we aren't responsible for the actions of some in our country.

It comes from both sides.

What are the illegal Palestinian settlements? Can you point me to them?

 

[nib95]

That picture proves nothing. If you would learn history properly you would know there was no such country called Palestine, and that the parts that were occupied were taken after a war between Israel and the Arabs, at a time they were threatening to take back their so called "country".

I am not right wing, but I know that the idea of a palestinian state before Israel was bullshit, and never existed.

I agree to an extent (in the first part of the image it was never officially recognised as Palestine at the time, but was Mandatory Palestine under British rule), but the important one is 47 onwards. That image represents the internationally recognised borders as per the UN and global community. I respect that many of the Arab nations did not agree with it and that violence erupted, but that is why most people give Israel some leeway and ask for the 67 borders to be adhered to instead. But Israel is going way beyond even that, taking more and more land from Palestine each and every year. That is the fundamental issue to this entire conflict, coupled with the occupation, and with it the abuse of an entire regions rights. It is perhaps the main cause for grievances among Palestinians and the international community.

Even Hamas has stated they would agree to the 67 borders, but it's evident Israel no longer wants that, they want more. Much more.

 

[BaronLundi]

Attended the protests in my local town today. A few hundreds turned up. Wish I was still in London, saw the news, updates, tweets etc. Looks like thousands turned up to that one, to protest in-front of the Israeli embassy. Really diverse crowds, including lots of orthadox jews.

I thought this particular image was powerful.

Ah... the token member of Neturei Karta.

Although I'd see no problem with a rabbi desmonstrating against Israel strikes on Gaza, this is not a rabbi this is a madman from a sect.

Burning Israeli flags, associating with holocaust deniers and antisemites everywhere. And everywhere used as "evidence" that good Jews are anti-zionists.

Very powerful indeed (lol).

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I won't say Israel is pure and without any responsibility, but I say that our country usually tries its best. Imagine how many people would have been killed if our government truly wouldn't have given a shit about civilian casualties.

Zionism cares about how it is perceived by its international sponsors. That is not the same as avoiding casualties out of principal. Given the population density of Gaza, the IDF is limited only by the efficiency of its moral advertizing. The backlash to the Cast Lead massacre has made things more difficult. We are in the process of finding exactly how difficult.

What, in your view, is the Dahiya Doctrine? Anyone who claims Israel doesn't engage in collective punishment should be able to explain the meaning of this doctrine and how it influences policy otherwise.

 

[elhav]

I agree, but the important one is 47 onwards. That image represents the internationally recognised borders as per the UN and global community. I respect that many of the Arab nations did not agree with it and that violence erupted, but that is why most people give Israel some leeway and ask for the 67 borders to be adhered to instead. But Israel is going way beyond even that, taking more and more land from Palestine each and every year. That is the fundamental issue to this entire conflict, coupled with the occupation, it is the number one cause for grievances.

Even Hamas has stated they would agree to the 67 borders, but it's evident Israel no longer wants that, they want more. Much more.

Our, as they are known here, Mitnahalim are the ones that want to get back all the land.
Many of us say that we shouldn't give parts of Israel back, because the Palestinians would just want more and more.

See the problem? I couldn't care less about fucking territories. Where I live there are plenty of Arabs that are slowly enveloping the entire area. Some of us fear that they will bring back the terrorism that existed in the years 2001-2005.

Many people also bring up the fact that Araffat took all the money Israel gave to him, and spent it on weapons and bombs, instead of rebuilding and create order in Gaza. Those bombs and weapons were used on us, and for some years, we couldn't get on a bus without fearing it will explode.

Both sides don't trust the other, and the wound deepens as time goes by. I really hope one day it will end.

 

[Liljagare]

I don't know why that would help. Some people try to deny it, but humanity is way more cilized than in the past. Think the cavemen where peace loving folk free from harm? Think the dark age where nice?

We don't have to reset, we have to reform and develop further.Except when they're bombing funerals from people they bombed before, because these people tried to help the people that were bombed in the first place.

Sorry, should naturarly explained further, wish we could hit the reset button and reset to before we humans existed. Would have spared millions of painfull deaths, that is what I meant.

 

[elhav]

Zionism cares about how it is perceived by its international sponsors. That is not the same as avoiding casualties out of principal. Given the population density of Gaza, the IDF is limited only by the efficiency of its moral advertizing. The backlash to the Cast Lead massacre has made things more difficult. We are in the process of finding exactly how difficult.

What, in your view, is the Dahiya Doctrine? Anyone who claims Israel doesn't engage in collective punishment should be able to explain the meaning of this doctrine and how it influences policy otherwise.

If you are reffering to the second Lebanon war, Israel bombed the entirety of the Dahiya disctrict, but before doing so, warned the citizens.
Hizballa's bunkers and headquarters, along with the executives were located there, and Israel responded to them entering Israel illegally and kidnapping two soldiers, while killing many others.

That move finished Hizballah, and gave Israel the detterence it needed. Though now they are now rebulding their headquarters.

 

[Amir0x]

Yeah but you're talking about attitudes 100+ years ago.

You would continually be shocked at just how much we continue to be like people that lived even thousands of years ago. Human beings have a constantly shifting ethical/moral standard that is dependent on many factors, but there are many themes to the way we behave, and as most historians are want to tell you (with ample evidence), the moment the shit hits the fan, the thin veneer of civilization we tend to cloak ourselves in fades away remarkably quickly.

The famous Milgram experiment put people in three groups - experimenter, learner and teacher. Learner and teacher were put in different rooms. The experimenter then would prod the teacher to ask questions to the learner, whom they could not see, only hear. The experimenter would inform the teacher that for every question that the learner got wrong, they would have to send an electric shock to the learner. More horrifying, they were told each learner had a heart condition. The experimenter would always prod with the following answers to the teacher:

1. Please continue.
2. The experiment requires that you continue.
3. It is absolutely essential that you continue.
4. You have no other choice, you must go on.

Now as this went on, the learner was told to act as if they were in pain, having trouble breathing, or whatever. As it went on, more and more quite obvious health issues were occurring, and the learner eventually would act as if he went silent (passed out or died) if the teacher kept electrocuting him. Of course, no actual electrocution was happening, but the teacher thought it was.

Some times people would ask why they had to continue. Some would stop and leave. But if after the prodding of those 4 questions listed about the teacher still didn't want to continue, the experiment would end. A mindblowing 60 percent of people issued the maximum amount of shock to the people on the other end. Some were uncomfortable, some questioned why this test was going on. But the end result is they were still willing to cause possible death-dealing electrocution to someone they didn't know.

Now, the test is not without its critics, but similar tests have been carried out in other formats, such as a test which made people into sort of makeshift prison guards, and another set of subjects would be prisoners. By the end of the test, many of the prison guards had gone remarkably far and abused their power to the extreme - sometimes even going far beyond the boundaries of the test, also causing some controversy over the ethical nature of this test. But, regardless, the end result was a huge amount of people were willing to abuse their position of authority.

People are people. For as much as we change, we have very real deep seated selfish sides that cause us to dehumanize people for very specific reasons. That causes so many of us to throw caution to the wind and become, for lack of a better word, monsters.

So yeah, 100+ years ago people have a different set of moral/ethical standards. But there is not much between us and them, or at least remarkably less difference than you'd ever expect.

Did the bold really happen?

I find it hard to believe two people could have grew up in the same house, and joined two different sides in such a fundamentally moral thing as the US civil war.

Yeah, and not just brother against brother. Sometimes father against son, uncle against nephews, it was a truly tragic war, like so many civil wars are. Fascinating history, but tragic

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

If you are reffering to the second Lebanon war.

No. What I am asking you, SPECIFICALLY, is if you are aware of something called the DAHIYA DOCTRINE. What does it mean to you?

 

[JordanN]

I understand why people are mad at Israel, but it seems so far that the IDF is trying its best to not hit civilians. It happens, and innocents die, but what other possible action can Israel take?

This is a good point.
Say Israel just stopped fighting back. Do they just watch their civilians be blown up for all eternity? No country is that dumb.

If Mexico sent a single missile flying at Texas, do you think Obama would shrug it off, or would he mobilize the entire home guard to occupy Mexico City for the next 6 months while installing a pro-U.S puppet?

Again, civilian causalities are very sad. It should make everyone more mad at Hamas for endangering them.

 

[elhav]

No. What I am asking you, SPECIFICALLY, is if you are aware of something called the DAHIYA DOCTRINE. What does it mean to you?

Wasn't aware of it, no.
And now that I have checked it, it seems it was more of a move of detterence than actual practice.

When Israel did blow up entire sections of Gaza or Lebanon, they warned the cititizens beforehand, so they didn't exactly kill innocents on purpose.

I don't like that idea if it comes true, but so far I haven't seen it happening in many occurances.

I find it non ethical, unless it exists only to frighten the enemy, rather than to actually carry out.

 

[Partial Gamification]

This is a good point.
Say Israel just stopped fighting back. Do they just watch their civilians be blown up for all eternity? No country is that dumb.

If Mexico sent a single missile flying at Texas, do you think Obama would shrug it off, or would he mobilize the entire home guard to occupy Mexico City for the next 6 months while installing a pro-U.S puppet?

Again, civilian causalities are very sad. It should make everyone more mad at Hamas for endangering them.

No Israelis have been killed since the start of this operation. The citizens might be better protected, in the long run, if actual efforts were made toward peace. Israel has the upper hand and is coming down extremely hard on Gaza. What will really end the rocket attacks? Killing all the people in Gaza? That would do it [from Gaza]. Is this operation going to be the end-all of rocket attacks, or will it just create another re-run in the overall story of this occupation?

 

[Linkhero1]

To those who say that IDF has not deliberately targeted civilian population:

43. The Mission investigated 11 incidents in which the Israeli armed forces launched direct attacks against civilians with lethal outcome (chap. XI). The facts in all bar one of the attacks indicate no justifiable military objective. The first two are attacks on houses in the al-Samouni neighbourhood south of Gaza City, including the shelling of a house in which Palestinian civilians had been forced to assemble by the Israeli armed forces. The following group of seven incidents concern the shooting of civilians while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags and, in some of the cases, following an injunction from the Israeli forces to do so. The facts gathered by the Mission indicate that all the attacks occurred under circumstances in which the Israeli armed forces were in control of the area and had previously entered into contact with or had at least observed the persons they subsequently attacked, so that they must have been aware of their civilian status. In the majority of these incidents, the consequences of the Israeli attacks against civilians were aggravated by their subsequent refusal to allow the evacuation of the wounded or to permit access to ambulances.

44. These incidents indicate that the instructions given to the Israeli armed forces moving into Gaza provided for a low threshold for the use of lethal fire against the civilian population. The Mission found strong corroboration of this trend in the testimonies of Israeli soldiers collected in two publications it reviewed.

45. The Mission further examined an incident in which a mosque was targeted with a missile during early evening prayers, resulting in the death of 15 people, and an attack with flechette munitions on a crowd of family and neighbours at a condolence tent, killing five. The Mission finds that both attacks constitute intentional attacks against the civilian population and civilian objects.

46. From the facts ascertained in all the above cases, the Mission finds that the conduct of the Israeli armed forces constitutes grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in respect of
wilful killings and wilfully causing great suffering to protected persons and, as such, give rise to individual criminal responsibility. It also finds that the direct targeting and arbitrary killing of Palestinian civilians is a violation of the right to life.

47. The last incident concerns the bombing of a house resulting in the killing of 22 family members. Israel’s position in this case is that there was an “operational error” and that the intended target was a neighbouring house storing weapons. On the basis of its investigation, the Mission expresses significant doubts about the Israeli authorities’ account of the incident.

Mission concludes that, if a mistake was indeed made, there could not be said to be a case of wilful killing. State responsibility of Israel for an internationally wrongful act would, however, remain.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

 

[elhav]

I am going to sleep, but I have had an interesting discussion with you folks.

Let's hope this ends quickly, and let's hope no more innocents have to die.

Good night.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I find it non ethical, unless it exists only to frighten the enemy, rather than to actually carry out.

It is collective punishment as policy. "Frighten the enemy" is an interesting interpretation for mass casualties and destruction of infrastructure within densely populated neighborhoods, as prescribed by the Dahiya Doctrine.

The warnings are not systematized or practical in any sense. They are a PR device. The policy is punishment.

 

[LNBL]

If you are reffering to the second Lebanon war, Israel bombed the entirety of the Dahiya disctrict, but before doing so, warned the citizens.
Hizballa's bunkers and headquarters, along with the executives were located there, and Israel responded to them entering Israel illegally and kidnapping two soldiers, while killing many others.

That move finished Hizballah, and gave Israel the detterence it needed. Though now they are now rebulding their headquarters.

Finished them? Yeah not really.

And you keep brining up these warnings that the Idf drops. You are using it as an excuse for the deaths they caused and are causing among civilians. What about the people that are sick or are unable of moving away from their homes? Sucks to be them then i presume?

Multiple human rights movement have criticized Israel for this

Advance warnings

A leaflet (authored by the IDF's psychological warfare unit) dropped by the IAF on southern Lebanon. It reads: “To all citizens south of the Litani River: Due to the terror activities being carried out against the State of Israel from within your villages and homes, the IDF was forced to respond immediately against these activities, even within your villages. For your safety! We call upon you to evacuate your villages immediately and move north of the Litani River. The State of Israel”
The Israeli Air Force issued warnings to civilians prior to military actions by way of leaflet droppings to evacuate areas in which it was intending to strike against Hezbollah strongholds. These leaflets warned residents of southern Lebanon to evacuate an area approximately 32 km wide,[111] giving civilian populations time to evacuate despite providing an early warning to the intended target, Hezbollah militants. The New York Times noted that "Israel has been careful to drop leaflets warning civilians in southern Beirut and southern Lebanon where it knows that Hezbollah keeps stores of rockets and launchers in apartment houses, garages and homes."[112] Also, general leaflets explaining Israel's desire not to bring harm to the Lebanese populace were dropped, asking civilians to "[r]efrain from being located in places in relation to Hezbollah."[113][114]

However, the Israeli drops of leaflets before bombings have come under criticism for being used as an excuse to kill citizens who didn't leave. According to Human Rights Watch, "in Qana and other villages in southern Lebanon, thousands of residents have been unable to leave the area because they are sick, wounded, do not have the means to leave or they fear Israeli attacks on vehicles".[115]

The International Committee of the Red Cross said in a 30 July statement on the IDF's attack on Qana, "Issuing advance warning to the civilian population of impending attacks in no way relieves a warring party of its obligations under the rules and principles of international humanitarian law. In particular, the principles of distinction and proportionality must be respected at all times".[116]

In an opinion column in the International Herald Tribune online, Peter Bouckaert, Senior Emergencies Researcher for Human Rights Watch, went even further in denouncing the Israeli policy, writing that "In Lebanon ... [t]ime after time, Israel has hit civilian homes and cars in the southern border zone, killing dozens of people with no evidence of any military objective."[117]

On 6 August 2008, Yonatan Shapiro, a former Blackhawk helicopter pilot dismissed from reserve duty after signing a 'refusnik' letter in 2004, said that some Israeli fighter pilots had deliberately missed targets in order to avoid harming civilians, as disquiet grew in the military about flawed intelligence.[118]

 

[zeroOman]

I am going to sleep, but I have had an interesting discussion with you folks.

Let's hope this ends quickly, and let's hope no more innocents have to die.

Good night.

NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMlmCGeF14

 

[Linkhero1]

NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMlmCGeF14

Wow...I should not have watched this.

 

[elhav]

NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMlmCGeF14

Absolutely terrible...
There goes my sleep....

Cya in better times guys.

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

I think im gonna puke

That child has half a head left

 

[Quotient]

NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMlmCGeF14

No matter which side of coin you support, that is a disgusting video to post in response to someone.

It doesn't add anything to the contribution. I'm sure others can show pictures of an Israeli bus after a suicide bomber.

Shameful.

Edit: as curious as folks may be I recommend you don't watch it. It is a very upsetting video of a parent and their child (who died).

 

[zeroOman]

No matter which side of coin you support, that is a disgusting move to post a video like that in response to someone.

It doesn't add anything to the contribution. I'm sure others can show pictures of an Israeli bus after a suicide bomber.

Shameful.

what do u want me to do? not showing the 25 children who have die since the attack? didn't u say that Israel care and give ppl time to get out or how Hamas use these baby as fuking human shield... how the hell is 20 or 30 sec enough for them to run and hid....

and there is more if u care dude.