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Canada Poligaf - The Wrath of Harperland

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Ontario Tories are suffering from a pretty bad lack of quality candidates at the moment. Long years of opposition plus the federal conservatives sucking up all the top talent have me wondering who could even replace Hudak?

Frank Klees is a cool dude. His party hates him though since he ran for Speaker and could have given the Liberals a majority. He convinced Hudak to change his anti-transit attitude for example.

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I happen to like the Westminister model. Proroguing parliament is a problem but you can put checks in place that makes it difficult, like when the Ontario NDP got the Ontario Grits to agree to pass legislation that requires a majority to prorogue parliament, and there must be a set date when the House resumes.

Preferential ballots encourage partisan politics. I don't think we need more of that. When an MP votes with party line despite constituents' desires, it just makes people cynical towards the whole process. If there's any change needed in our system, I think there needs to be more MP involvement in their ridings, and more accountability/transparency rules by increasing the powers and protections of independent third parties and watchdogs.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Australian politics is horrible and anybody looking at Alternative Vote as a better alternative to FPTP should consider it.

I wonder if this, along with the Canadian innovation of proroguing parliament every time a minority leader doesn't like how things are going (thanks Harper and McGuinty!), means the Westminster model is careening to obsolescence. Maybe it depends too much on landed gentry following unspoken laws of decorum and etiquette to function?

This has nothing to do with AV and could theoretically have happened here or in Britain during the Chretien/Martin or Blair/Brown "coups". It's just that most parties aren't so completely broken that they'd basically try to destroy each other publicly, because it's in no one's interests to do so... but the Rudd/Gillard thing has just been building for years now and finally exploded.

If you want to say that it's a condemnation of the Westminster system inasmuch as Republican Democracies only depose their Presidents at gunpoint, then sure - this is something that can't happen in the United States because even impeachment doesn't necessarily mean that the President has to leave office.

We just have this weird system where we elect MPs and not leaders, so if a party decides in midstream to change leaders (or in theory, if several MPs decide to change party and the government loses their majority), suddenly the PM is not the PM anymore and the "Queen" has to decide who is in charge of the country.

It's just so fascinating because it's so... well, dumb for lack of a better word. It makes you wonder if anything similar is even happening behind the scenes in the CPC. We know that backbenchers are disgruntled and polls are down, but there's really no one on that side that can even come close to "deposing" Harper in an internal revolution. But imagine if the polls in 2014 went down so far that people wanted Harper to resign, but he refused to do so? We could have PM Baird or Flaherty or whoever is left alive in the CPC then. Amazing!
 
Leadership elections aren't held on the very same day, and are decided by thousands of party members rather than a handful of elected officials, which I think makes the whole process less revolting than the Australian system.

It's how Gillard got in in the first place, the Parliamentarians liked her, but not so much the people. In Canada if people (the party members) liked Harper but hated Flaherty, then Flaherty wouldn't win no matter how much the rest of the CPC caucus hated Harper. In Australia, only the elected officials got to choose the leader of the party, who also happens to be the prime minister. The system churned out a leader who worked well with her caucus but had trouble relating to the people.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Leadership elections aren't held on the very same day, and are decided by thousands of party members rather than a handful of elected officials, which I think makes the whole process less revolting than the Australian system.

It's how Gillard got in in the first place, the Parliamentarians liked her, but not so much the people. In Canada if people (the party members) liked Harper but hated Flaherty, then Flaherty wouldn't win no matter how much the rest of the CPC caucus hated Harper. In Australia, only the elected officials got to choose the leader of the party, who also happens to be the prime minister. The system churned out a leader who worked well with her caucus but had trouble relating to the people.

Well, the thing is that, IIRC anyway, Harper has gone through his own confidence motions at CPC caucuses previously. Now, I have no idea if that means that the "party" votes on him or just CPC MPs at the time though. I want to say Chretien went through a couple as well, in order to stave off Martin, back in the halcyon days of LPC relevancy.

Yeah, the spill system is for MPs only, but my gut reaction at least, is that it makes being a backbencher at least somewhat meaningful... as opposed to how it is here, where being a backbencher is literally being a seat filler for 3-5 years.
 

Azih

Member
This has nothing to do with AV and could theoretically have happened here or in Britain during the Chretien/Martin or Blair/Brown "coups". It's just that most parties aren't so completely broken that they'd basically try to destroy each other publicly, because it's in no one's interests to do so... but the Rudd/Gillard thing has just been building for years now and finally exploded.
Fair enough it's just the theory floated that just because politicians have to stump for 'second/third choice votes' during a campaign that'll somehow make them more cooperative and concilliatory with each other is kinda bunk. Aussie politics is kinda nasty both within and between parties.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Fair enough it's just the theory floated that just because politicians have to stump for 'second/third choice votes' during a campaign that'll somehow make them more cooperative and concilliatory with each other is kinda bunk. Aussie politics is kinda nasty both within and between parties.
Well, it's not like the Liberals didn't have their own petty stuff with Dion and Ignatieff back in the day.
The other difference is that the parties are much more factional because of the electorate, which kind of exists here in the form of regionalism, but is a bit more ideological over there. It was basically two Labour parties working together for the last few years rather than a unified party anyway.

The non-Australian voyeur in me kind of hopes the government falls tomorrow, if only because it'd be funny to see the worst case scenario play out. I expect that Rudd will be confirmed as PM though and the session will close without a hitch.
 
994770_516297631756821_1513681313_n.jpg


Popo Marois on foreign visit in Mexico....... notice anything missing behind her?
 
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...-guns-seized-from-evacuated-high-river-homes/

The PMO interfering with and politicizing operational police matters during a state of emergency.

The Law-and-Order, pro-police government my scarlet tunic'd ass. :p

Ever since Nigel Wright resigned the PMO has become more stupid than usual.

What I like about Pauline is that in her attempt to make sovereigntist movement look moderate, she has pretty much squandered it for the next decade or so.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Popo Marois on foreign visit in Mexico....... notice anything missing behind her?

Why should there be a Canadian flag? If Montreal's Mayor went to Beijing to talk about any sort of partnership, there probably wouldn't be a Canadian flag there either. This is a visit for matters relating to Quebec, not the federal government.
 
I live in Thornhill and can't name a single thing Kent has done for us, or has said about any local issue

And why does he have 2 twitter accounts? One for Cabinet and one for Thornhill....
 

diaspora

Member
I live in Thornhill and can't name a single thing Kent has done for us, or has said about any local issue

And why does he have 2 twitter accounts? One for Cabinet and one for Thornhill....

Markham's absorbing some thornhill polls which is going to be... interesting.
 

diaspora

Member
I'm confused as to why there's a debate on making immigrants swear an oath to the Queen and royal family. If she's the head of a church then it's a violation of religious rights isn't it or am I missing something...
 

Azih

Member
I'm confused as to why there's a debate on making immigrants swear an oath to the Queen and royal family. If she's the head of a church then it's a violation of religious rights isn't it or am I missing something...

I'm completely ambivalent on this. It's a tradition and I don't think it's a bad thing to maintain close ties with other countries in this sort of fashion but it doesn't make one lick of difference otherwise. You can just keep quiet or mumble something else when asked to make that part of the oath. It's not like the oath police closely monitor and enforce it.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I'm confused as to why there's a debate on making immigrants swear an oath to the Queen and royal family. If she's the head of a church then it's a violation of religious rights isn't it or am I missing something...

She's not the head of any state-sponsored church in Canada, other than the non-catholic requirement in the acts of successsion. She is our head of state, though.

That said, "you can just mumble" is such a terrible solution to any kind of state-organized speech having something questionable in it, it makes me very sad when people suggest it.
 

Azih

Member
She's not the head of any state-sponsored church in Canada, other than the non-catholic requirement in the acts of successsion. She is our head of state, though.

That said, "you can just mumble" is such a terrible solution to any kind of state-organized speech having something questionable in it, it makes me very sad when people suggest it.

I don't think it's particularly questionable in the first place, which is why I'm completely ambivalent on the issue to the point of not caring whether people even say the thing.
 

Boogie

Member
I don't personally care about whether we keep the oath as is, or not.

But that's a debate and a decision for Canadians to make.

Non-citizens trying to dictate what our requirements for citizenship are?. No. To them I say, fuck that, and fuck off.
 

diaspora

Member
I'm completely ambivalent on this. It's a tradition and I don't think it's a bad thing to maintain close ties with other countries in this sort of fashion but it doesn't make one lick of difference otherwise. You can just keep quiet or mumble something else when asked to make that part of the oath. It's not like the oath police closely monitor and enforce it.

It's fine if people want to carry on the tradition by saying the oath, but I can't get why it's mandatory. Understanding and comprehending our Euro ties is definitely important but the oath isn't that.

She's not the head of any state-sponsored church in Canada, other than the non-catholic requirement in the acts of succession. She is our head of state, though.

I know she's the Queen of Canada, but she's still the head of a church, english or not.

I don't personally care about whether we keep the oath as is, or not.

But that's a debate and a decision for Canadians to make.

Non-citizens trying to dictate what our requirements for citizenship are?. No. To them I say, fuck that, and fuck off.

Can't say I entirely agree with this, given that those involved are people who have lived here for years and are a part of Canadian society as much as anyone- if it was some random asshat fresh of the plane it'd be a different story. Incidentally, it doesn't seem like they're trying to force anyone to do anything but rather to make a legitimately objectionable and arbitrary requirement simply optional since it doesn't seem like their goal is to ban anyone from taking the oath.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I know she's the Queen of Canada, but she's still the head of a church, english or not.

And the oath does not require you to join her church, nor even encourage you to.

For the record I'm against forcing anyone, immigrant or not, to make a pledge of allegiance. I'm against it both on the principle of equality, that immigrants should be held to no higher standard than natural born citizens (and no natural born citizen has been required to pledge allegiance for a very long time), and the principle that the state is not deserving of such a supreme place in people's lives.

I'm also entirely for removing the references to God from the official anthem and any fundamental government documents.

But the pledge is not a pledge to the Church of England, no matter how you twist it. The Church of England enjoys no special status in Canada, so the Queen's membership or leadership thereof is not at issue imo.
 

NetMapel

Guilty White Male Mods Gave Me This Tag
Trying to better understand politics of my country... but I seem to hear about cabinet shuffle like, every six months or so. Seems like the shuffle happen frequently. I'm just curious as to why that is the case. Is there a set scheduled of cabinet shuffle ? If not, why the frequent cabinet shuffle ? Just very curious and would love to know this information. Thanks :)
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Trying to better understand politics of my country... but I seem to hear about cabinet shuffle like, every six months or so. Seems like the shuffle happen frequently. I'm just curious as to why that is the case. Is there a set scheduled of cabinet shuffle ? If not, why the frequent cabinet shuffle ? Just very curious and would love to know this information. Thanks :)
It usually happens when parliament is not in session and it's usually an excuse for the government to change things up to make it look like they will be better than before. It also allows them to promote and demote MPs without making a big deal about it, since the focus would only be on the big ministries like Finance.
 
Trying to better understand politics of my country... but I seem to hear about cabinet shuffle like, every six months or so. Seems like the shuffle happen frequently. I'm just curious as to why that is the case. Is there a set scheduled of cabinet shuffle ? If not, why the frequent cabinet shuffle ? Just very curious and would love to know this information. Thanks :)

They usually only happen every two years. You must have confused it with a recent provincial cabinet shuffle or maybe the Liberal shadow cabinet shuffle.
 

Azih

Member
Yeah, MPs in cabinet have more powers, responsibilities, and visibility than regular MPs do so they are plum positions. In part it defines the agenda of the government especially in the more powerful postions like Finance Minister (that's why Wynne's cabinet in Ontario is very different from McGuinty's) but a lot of it is also just the leader rewarding loyal MPs and putting on a positive show for the media and voters.
 

gabbo

Member
Trying to better understand politics of my country... but I seem to hear about cabinet shuffle like, every six months or so. Seems like the shuffle happen frequently. I'm just curious as to why that is the case. Is there a set scheduled of cabinet shuffle ? If not, why the frequent cabinet shuffle ? Just very curious and would love to know this information. Thanks :)

In this case, it's new faces with the same script, as most of the new Ministers were Parliamentary Secretaries to previous ministers, and did most of the Political Show circuit for them.
 
Historic results for the Ontario NDP in the Ontario byelections today.
3AQmK.gif
Won Windsor-Tecumseh with over 60% of the vote, a surge of 30%. Also won London West, a small c conservative riding, with 43% of the vote, a surge of 20%. If they keep winning ridings like this and Kitchener-Waterloo, there are some great days ahead.

Hudak won Etobicoke-Lakeshore with 46% of the vote, a surge of 20%. It looks more to be of a Doug Holyday victory though than a Hudak victory though.

Wynne held on by her teeth in Scarborough-Guildwood and Ottawa South. Made Hudak look very embarassed tonight, but her results aren't all that great either. Complete collapse for the Liberals in Southwestern Ontario and lost a 416 Toronto riding to the PCs. Both Hudak and Wynne must be scared in their boots tonight.
 

diaspora

Member
Wynne did OK, 3rd in two ridings, but won two. Hudak won one and came in 2nd in 4. Horwath came in 3rd in 3 ridings, won 2. Everyone went down the mediocrity toilet.
 

diaspora

Member
Byelections are usually bad for the current government anyway

TBH, it doesn't seem like the tories performed badly as much as just mediocre. Though they came in 2nd in 4 of the 5 ridings, they have a better opportunity for growth than the NDP in those ridings. But PC election team is worse than useless so...
 
Wynne is not very safe. A collapse in Western Ontario is not a good sign at all. I have a feeling that isn't just the West too, Northern Ontario can't be too happy with the Liberals either. Less so in Hamilton-Niagara. Liberal support outside the GTA and Ottawa in general is waning. Harper won Ontario without those two in 2008, so it's not out of the question for the Opposition parties either.

I don't think 2nd/3rd place is all that important. Maybe the degree by which they lost in is more important. Like PCs are technically second in Windsor, but they only got 20% of the Vote compared to NDP's 60%. That's far less impressive than NDP's third place 30% in Scarborough. But out of the get-go a lot of these ridings were two horse races, like Ottawa, Etobicoke and London. And since these ridings were magnified in the byelection, the third running party would naturally not get enough press.

But good point about governments not doing well in byelections and smaller parties generally outperforming in them. I guess I shouldn't get too excited.
 
Wynne is not very safe. A collapse in Western Ontario is not a good sign at all. I have a feeling that isn't just the West too, Northern Ontario can't be too happy with the Liberals either. Less so in Hamilton-Niagara. Liberal support outside the GTA and Ottawa in general is waning. Harper won Ontario without those two in 2008, so it's not out of the question for the Opposition parties either.

I don't think 2nd/3rd place is all that important. Maybe the degree by which they lost in is more important. Like PCs are technically second in Windsor, but they only got 20% of the Vote compared to NDP's 60%. That's far less impressive than NDP's third place 30% in Scarborough. But out of the get-go a lot of these ridings were two horse races, like Ottawa, Etobicoke and London. And since these ridings were magnified in the byelection, the third running party would naturally not get enough press.

But good point about governments not doing well in byelections and smaller parties generally outperforming in them. I guess I shouldn't get too excited.


Ontario Liberals are pretty resilient, partly because Hudak is hated, partly because they have excellent fundraising and organization

If they get teachers and public servants back on board they'll win the next general election
 

diaspora

Member
Ontario Liberals are pretty resilient, partly because Hudak is hated, partly because they have excellent fundraising and organization

If they get teachers and public servants back on board they'll win the next general election

With a majority, minority without.

Wynne is not very safe. A collapse in Western Ontario is not a good sign at all. I have a feeling that isn't just the West too, Northern Ontario can't be too happy with the Liberals either. Less so in Hamilton-Niagara. Liberal support outside the GTA and Ottawa in general is waning. Harper won Ontario without those two in 2008, so it's not out of the question for the Opposition parties either.

The leader of a party that's been in power for 3 terms won held 2/5 ridings, came in second in a 3rd, and dead last in two. That's a mediocre performance, but it's not a collapse. Coming in dead last in 3 ridings is stunning performance though.

edit- What I'm driving at is that nobody performed notably well, or notably poorly. So much so, we might as well call the results "Confirmation Bias: The Game".


I don't think 2nd/3rd place is all that important. Maybe the degree by which they lost in is more important.

They're both important.
 
Ontario Liberals are pretty resilient, partly because Hudak is hated, partly because they have excellent fundraising and organization

If they get teachers and public servants back on board they'll win the next general election

I think Etobicoke has shown that organization isn't everything. How much organization does the PC Party have in Toronto? Looking at their election results I doubt it was much. A bad government will get voted out eventually.

I think Ken Coran and his blatant opportunism put a special kind of divide between unions and the Liberals that isn't going to be fixed anytime soon. Definitely not before the next election which can happen as early as the Fall.

With a majority, minority without.



The leader of a party that's been in power for 3 terms won held 2/5 ridings, came in second in a 3rd, and dead last in two. That's a mediocre performance, but it's not a collapse. Coming in dead last in 3 ridings is stunning performance though.

edit- What I'm driving at is that nobody performed notably well, or notably poorly. So much so, we might as well call the results "Confirmation Bias: The Game".




They're both important.

I don't think going from 42% to 11% in Windsor or going from 45% to 16% in London can be called anything but collapse. It's not just "third place", this should be cause for panic.
 
What? Holyday had the backing of the Ford and federal Tory organizers which are incredibly potent in Toronto. Organization is everything.

He won because he's Holyday. I think you guys are giving too much credit to the ground work. The popularity of the candidates and the leaders of the parties are definitely more important.
 
He won because he's Holyday. I think you guys are giving too much credit to the ground work. The popularity of the candidates and the leaders of the parties are definitely more important.


But I thought McGuinty's riding was going blue for sure...........

Getting the vote out is extremely important
 
But I thought McGuinty's riding was going blue for sure...........

Getting the vote out is extremely important

I didn't think that and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. It's Ottawa. Don't trust the polls, even if they show a 20%+ lead.

All ridings except Windsor were safe Liberal ridings. London was lost because Coran backfired, and Etobicoke was lost because Holyday. Of course having a good campaign is important, but it's not the end-all-be-all. Saying "Liberals will win because organization" doesn't really hold in my eyes.

Also saying the NDP results are mediocre is plain wrong. I think you are alone in that view. These were Liberal ridings for Liberals to lose, the NDP made huge gains as did the Conservatives (though that was all bittersweet).

I think this retweet by the NDP twitter says it all. "2nd/3rd place" rankings that don't say what actually happened don't paint an accurate picture.

Final tally: NDP +2 seats +8.9%, +4,077 votes; PC +1 seat, +6.0%, -4,522 votes; Lib -3 seats, -17.2%, -50,034 votes.
 
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