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[oneils]

She's not the head of any state-sponsored church in Canada, other than the non-catholic requirement in the acts of successsion. She is our head of state, though.

That said, "you can just mumble" is such a terrible solution to any kind of state-organized speech having something questionable in it, it makes me very sad when people suggest it.

I find it weird that immigrants have to say their oath out loud. When I joined the civil service, I did not have to voice my oath - I just signed a piece of paper.

Uh, this doesn't have much to do with what you guys were talking about. Sorry.

 

[Azih]

I'd say the by elections were a huge win for Howarth, bad for Wynne, and worse for Hudak.

Sure by elections go bad for incumbents usually but this means very clearly that Wynne's honeymoon is very much over and that even though she fended off a few waves of gas plant attacks very well the endless volume of them are wearing her down. McGuinty screwed the pooch in such an epic way on that file that even Wynne hasn't able to turn the page on it.

Howarth's ground game is becoming incredibly impressive. She's earned the clearest claim on a win out of all three and adding on a 30% voter showing in Scarborough is pretty damn good as well. Her approval ratings and visibility are going to be going up after this. 2 wins out of 5 is the ceiling of what I would have expected and she got it. For all of Hudak's noise it's Howarth that is effectively the Leader of the Opposition and a good one at that.

Hudak... man nobody likes Hudak. All props to Holyday for making inroads for the PCs in Toronto with this by-election but this does not bode well in any way for the PCs in a general election.

In other news Scarborough is probably a lock to get a subway now.

 

[diaspora]

He won because he's Holyday. I think you guys are giving too much credit to the ground work. The popularity of the candidates and the leaders of the parties are definitely more important.

The popularity of candidates, parties, and leaders can only be possible because of the organization. Dix learned this the hard way.

 

[gabbo]

Hudak... man nobody likes Hudak.

I expect his white paper on this any day now.

In other news Scarborough is probably a lock to get a subway now.

Ford's grin must have been so big it was pushing up his eyebrows when Holyday won, and this became that much slower to reality.

 

[Slavik81]

These Bell ads come off as incredibly whiny. And the "we're looking out for the best interests of all Canadians" angle just makes me laugh.

I don't think their campaign is going to be effective. I mean, does anyone really place their trust in the big three?

 

[gabbo]

These Bell ads come off as incredibly whiny. And the "we're looking out for the best interests of all Canadians" angle just makes me laugh.

I don't think their campaign is going to be effective. I mean, does anyone really place their trust in the big three?

No more than the talking heads they've sent out on the political/news shows to argue it's an unfair playing field will convince us.

 

[DopeyFish]

The one thing all Canadians can agree on is how awful our telcos are.

They want sympathy for all the shit they have done? LOL

 

[CitizenVectron]

The one thing all Canadians can agree on is how awful our telcos are.

They want sympathy for all the shit they have done? LOL

I would say it's one thing *eastern Canadians can agree on. Out west, we have good telcos. In Saskatchewan and Manitoba in particular, we have government-run telcos which offer much lower prices and better service, so the major companies from out east are forced to lower their prices as well.

 

[Azih]

I would say it's one thing *eastern Canadians can agree on. Out west, we have good telcos. In Saskatchewan and Manitoba in particular, we have government-run telcos which offer much lower prices and better service, so the major companies from out east are forced to lower their prices as well.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Telus is the best of the big three and is based out of BC.

 

[gabbo]

I would say it's one thing *eastern Canadians can agree on. Out west, we have good telcos. In Saskatchewan and Manitoba in particular, we have government-run telcos which offer much lower prices and better service, so the major companies from out east are forced to lower their prices as well.

That's actually part of Bell/Roger's argument against Verizon sadly, except they limit themselves to Ontario and Quebec.

 

[maharg]

I would say it's one thing *eastern Canadians can agree on. Out west, we have good telcos. In Saskatchewan and Manitoba in particular, we have government-run telcos which offer much lower prices and better service, so the major companies from out east are forced to lower their prices as well.

Speak for yourself about out west. In Alberta there are no government run telecoms and Telus, Rogers, Bell, and Shaw are all considered varying shades of awful.

We don't even have viable second party resellers of the big telecoms infrastructure here, really.

 

[BigJonsson]

Oh god, I actually like something the federal government is doing

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-government-lashes-out-at-telcos-for-dishonest-lobbying/article13749856/


Regulating the industry may get the desired results quicker but it's nice to see they are sticking to their guns to try and increase competition

 

[gabbo]

Oh god, I actually like something the federal government is doing

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-government-lashes-out-at-telcos-for-dishonest-lobbying/article13749856/


Regulating the industry may get the desired results quicker but it's nice to see they are sticking to their guns to try and increase competition

The one area mentioned in the article I kind of, maybe, sort of agree with the telcos is that I wouldn't be against Verizon/new entrants having to build new infrastructure, especially in rural areas. If only because Bell, Rogers, and Telus sure as hell aren't going to upgrade their aging/useless infrastructure outside major cities if they haven't done so by now.

Other than that, this is one political play I agree with the government on.

 

[gutter_trash]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/harp...nt-deliver-throne-speech-in-october-1.1417629

Harper to prorogue government till October LOL

 

[CitizenVectron]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sto...in-trudeau-marijuana-pot-huffington-post.html

Justin Trudeau admitted smoking pot 3 years ago while an MP at a dinner party. Not sure how this will affect him politically, but I don't think it will be too bad considering he has already come out in favour of legalization and that hasn't made a big dent.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I think it will be one of those things that Harper makes attack ads on.

 

[gabbo]

I think it will be one of those things that Harper makes attack ads on.

Of course he will. Anything to get the spotlight off the senate/the fizzled arctic trip.

 

[Complex Shadow]

Of course he will. Anything to get the spotlight off the senate/the fizzled arctic trip.

doubt it. since if hes whether positive or negative, he'll be losing votes from both camps.


then again, i don't really know how canadians feel about mj, i'd assume its mostly young vs old.

 

[BigJonsson]

I know lots of MJ users who are Conservatives, some of them might not vote CPC next time, some still will

 

[Zombie James]

I think it will be one of those things that Harper makes attack ads on.

Liberals counter with images of Harper distributing and consuming a much more dangerous drug:

 

[maharg]

I think it will be one of those things that Harper makes attack ads on.

That would be dumb. It'd only play to the base and turn off moderates in a big way. Public acceptance of pot is much too high, it'd be like saying "don't vote for him because he's like you!"

 

[gabbo]

That would be dumb. It'd only play to the base and turn off moderates in a big way. Public acceptance of pot is much too high, it'd be like saying "don't vote for him because he's like you!"

Not doing so would be at odds with their tough on crime/mandatory minimums stances that they'd trumpeted up to this point.
If they do make ads about it, it'll be that he did it after becoming an MP and whatever angle they want to take from that.

 

[Samyy]

Maybe he's hoping the make attack ads seeing how the last batch failed miserably and alienated some people, I know a couple conservative buddies thought they were incredibly embarrassing.

 

[maharg]

Not doing so would be at odds with their tough on crime/mandatory minimums stances that they'd trumpeted up to this point.
If they do make ads about it, it'll be that he did it after becoming an MP and whatever angle they want to take from that.

Except that while drug crime is obviously a target of their tough on crime policy, they don't actually tend to say as much. The tough on crime policies are advertised as making your street safer kinda stuff. You could put the most sinister music possible on Justin Trudeau, tint the lense red, and he still wouldn't look sinister enough to be like "Look at this man, do you want him prowling around your neighbourhood smoking a joint at night?" Of course they do, he's beautiful and white and they don't care if he smokes a joint once in a while.

 

[gabbo]

Except that while drug crime is obviously a target of their tough on crime policy, they don't actually tend to say as much. The tough on crime policies are advertised as making your street safer kinda stuff. You could put the most sinister music possible on Justin Trudeau, tint the lense red, and he still wouldn't look sinister enough to be like "Look at this man, do you want him prowling around your neighbourhood smoking a joint at night?" Of course they do, he's beautiful and white and they don't care if he smokes a joint once in a while.

Like I said it would be about the fact that he was an MP doing it. Can't trust him to follow laws/untrustworthy vs sinister evil.

Linking him to drug crime would be for the base, smokes joint/flouts law as MP would be for everyone else.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

People always say "attack ads turn me off!" in public and in opinion polls. But when they go to the ballot box, the party that used them tends to get rewarded. Federal Cosnervatives, Quebec's Liberals, Alberta's PCs, BC Liberals and I don't think any party or person is going to be punished for attack ads anytime soon.

Also the smoking pot thing while being an MP fits into the whole "in way over his head" attacking slogan. It's a marketing technique, everyone will disagree with the "in way over his head" slogan, but if you keep giving them many different reasons to believe it, it will be buried into people's minds and they will start second guessing him. Just like "Angry Mulcair!" or "Mulcair the Frenchie". Yeah it's tasteless but when did Harper ever have standards...

 

[gutter_trash]

where the fuck is Mulcair anyway?

 

[maharg]

People always say "attack ads turn me off!" in public and in opinion polls. But when they go to the ballot box, the party that used them tends to get rewarded.

I'd just like to be clear that I'm not taking a stance that attack ads don't work. Politics is often about definition, so defining yourself and your opponent is an important thing to do.

I'm saying this would be a bad attack ad in that I don't think it would get the right kind of traction. I'm not even saying they won't, I'm saying it would be a bad idea. They will run attack ads and they probably will have a significant effect (though the CPC has not yet actually gone up against someone with as much sustained popularity as Trudeau has right now, so it's hard to say how much). I just don't think this'll be it.

where the fuck is Mulcair anyway?

Good question. Either being smart and staying out of the muck while there isn't an election on or being dumb and letting himself be forgotten. Only hindsight will really tell which one. Right now it feels like the latter, since Trudeau's popularity doesn't seem very fluke-like.

 

[gutter_trash]

Good question. Either being smart and staying out of the muck while there isn't an election on or being dumb and letting himself be forgotten. Only hindsight will really tell which one. Right now it feels like the latter, since Trudeau's popularity doesn't seem very fluke-like.

Above is a Poll conducted by CROP about Quebec's voting intentions if the FEDERAL election was held today (that day).

The Non-Francophone columns shows a telling story of ethnic voters in Quebec returning back to the Liberals. The Trudeau name is also a factor.

1) Mulcair has recruited nationalists and soft-separatists. A big turn off to Federalists.

2) Mulicar has been mum quiet whenever Pauline Marois's PQ decided to start drafting harsher language laws and a new Charter of Quebec Values. Mulcair said that its a provincial matter.
Justin on the other hand has been vocally opposed to Marios language law attempt (Bill 14) and her new desire to create a Charter of Quebec Values.

Trudeau is gaining the Federalist vote in Quebec and is crushingly reclaiming the ethnic minoriies back into the Liberal camp.

Mulcair is losing ethnic minorities vote and he is content on gambling on the nationalist and soft-separatists.

Dark Blue = Conservative (strongest in Quebec City)
Light Blue = Bloc

 

[gutter_trash]

update, Thomas Mulcair reverses his position from Friday (let provinces governe themselves) and now has come out opposed to Pauline Marois's Charter of Values

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/p...se_B13b_politique-quebecoise_559_section_POS2

Looks he saw the polls and decided to act before he forever lost Federalist Montreal voters to the Liberal.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

His first position was "I won't comment on trial balloons". Now that Marois has come out and said the charter is real and the discrimination is real, Mulcair has come out with the formal position. Just like Trudeau didn't say anything until he met with Marois.

I think giving an opinion earlier would have been much better though, he did give the impression that he was going to look at internal polling before coming to his decision. The NDP in opposition should be about sticking up for vulnerable people and workers, popular vote be damned.

Btw I don't think public polling, the same public polling that farted on the Alberta/Quebec/BC elections and the 5 Ontario byelections should really be used as evidence for anything. >_> I also think that poll was taken before Trudeau made his position public. It probably has more to do with 50%+1 than this charter.

 

[gutter_trash]

Mulcair is walking a thin line between defending minorities in the normal NDP sense but also catering to the workers union on the left that are supported by Quebec Unions who are nationalists and separatists.

Justin on the other hand has defended minorities twice against Marois. 1st when it came to Bill 14 then 2ndly last Friday against the ''Charter of Values''

 

[BigJonsson]

Oh look, Nigel Wright wasn't acting alone, what a shocker /sarcasm

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/wright-worked-with-2-conservative-senators-to-reach-duffy-deal-emails-show-1.1428083

 

[firehawk12]

Speaking of the Senate scandal, Marc Harb resigned, maybe with some behind the scenes prompting, so the Liberals are probably going to try to make as much hay out of this as they can.

As much as I think both the NDP and Liberals are horrible, I guess now in my dream scenario the NDP collapse in Quebec, contract in Ontario and somehow, someway, the Liberals can ride this senate scandal to victories in at least Ontario and bring the Conservatives back down to minority territory.

God, I don't know what's worse. The Australians picking between Abbott and Rudd, the two assfaciest politicians in the Commonwealth, or Canadians stuck between an emotionless robot and two empty-shirted losers.

 

[Azih]

As much as I think both the NDP and Liberals are horrible, I guess now in my dream scenario the NDP collapse in Quebec, contract in Ontario and somehow, someway, the Liberals can ride this senate scandal to victories in at least Ontario and bring the Conservatives back down to minority territory.

Liberals taking seats from the NDP doesn't bring the Conservatives down at all.

 

[gabbo]

Speaking of the Senate scandal, Marc Harb resigned, maybe with some behind the scenes prompting, so the Liberals are probably going to try to make as much hay out of this as they can.

As much as I think both the NDP and Liberals are horrible, I guess now in my dream scenario the NDP collapse in Quebec, contract in Ontario and somehow, someway, the Liberals can ride this senate scandal to victories in at least Ontario and bring the Conservatives back down to minority territory.

God, I don't know what's worse. The Australians picking between Abbott and Rudd, the two assfaciest politicians in the Commonwealth, or Canadians stuck between an emotionless robot and two empty-shirted losers.

Harb resigning gives Harper another seat to fill.

 

[gutter_trash]

Liberals taking seats from the NDP doesn't bring the Conservatives down at all.

NDP taking seats from the Liberals doesn't bring the Conservative down at all.

The Liberals are the only true Federalist party. The NDP can take a hike while they cozy up with nationalists.

 

[Azih]

NDP taking seats from the Liberals doesn't bring the Conservative down at all.

Sure. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I said. Hoping for a NDP collapse in Quebec could mean the BQ comes back or the Cons come back. Either situation just makes our politics worse. All of the NDP seats going Lib is ok, but I don't trust them (hated Paul Martin's tenure as Finance Minister).

I really don't trust any party so I prefer a minority government (with the caveat that the one of the parties holding the balance of power isn't completely rudderless like the Liberals where since Cretien left and until Justin Trudeau arrived.

 

[gutter_trash]

minority governments are more toxic than majority governments. Hyper partisanship grows exponational being always in campaign mode.

present day minority governments resort to short term band-aid policies to drum up electoral support for the next election. They are actually very detrimental

The PQ in Quebec has a minority government and they are drumming up identity politics to rob the 3rd place party of nationalist votes in hopes to win a majority in the next election.

Remember Harper minority playing around with lowering the GST as a short term candy campaign promise to win votes. It actually contributed to a mega loss of revenue and deficit hike for the Goverment in the long term.

 

[Azih]

minority governments are more toxic than majority governments. Hyper partisanship grows exponational being always in campaign mode.

Harper majority would disagree. And it's odd that other nations can do coalition governing with no problems and yet Canadians can't? That one Martin/Layton budget was the best federal budget in years and Wynne/Howarth is doing fine in Ontario.

Harper is doing ugly shit with his majority constantly. You just don't hear about it as much as if it was still a minority (is that a good thing to you?)

 

[maharg]

Remember Harper minority playing around with lowering the GST as a short term candy campaign promise to win votes. It actually contributed to a mega loss of revenue and deficit hike for the Goverment in the long term.

Playing around with it? It was a long term platform plank. Why I have no idea, but it's not something that arose out of a minority government. Anyways, cutting taxes and running deficits in panic mode is a hallmark of modern conservativism the world over.

It was also extremely popular even though it was stupid.

 

[gutter_trash]

Harper majority would disagree. And it's odd that other nations can do coalition governing with no problems and yet Canadians can't? That one Martin/Layton budget was the best federal budget in years and Wynne/Howarth is doing fine in Ontario.

Harper is doing ugly shit with his majority constantly. You just don't hear about it as much as if it was still a minority (is that a good thing to you?)

Canadian MPs are muzzled by the leader and tote the party line. There is no real representation but only what the party line is. Backbenchers who dare speak their minds get their mouthes zipped or kicked out of the party

 

[firehawk12]

Harb resigning gives Harper another seat to fill.

Assuming he still has control of the senate, he'd be an idiot to appoint a new senator now.

Liberals taking seats from the NDP doesn't bring the Conservatives down at all.

The only way the Liberals move up is in Ontario and Quebec. I would say BC is a write off, but then again, the NDP just blew the provincial election, so who knows. My only hope is for a Conservative minority at this point, until once and for all one of the leftist parties die and we go to a two party system.

(I know, I know, I'm the crazy two party guy. But I'm just fucking tired of the state of our politics.)

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Minority governments poop on majority governments any day of the week. The only reason Quebec's is so bad is because the CAQ presented itself as an Anglophone-friendly party but ended up being the right-wing extension of the PQ. Federally, or in other provinces, there is no such confusion.

I'm not sure what having a two party system will solve. Do you like chossing between the PCs and Wildrose in Alberta for example? Or corrupt Liberals or incompetent NDP in BC? Less choices is bad.

 

[gabbo]

The only way the Liberals move up is in Ontario and Quebec. I would say BC is a write off, but then again, the NDP just blew the provincial election, so who knows. My only hope is for a Conservative minority at this point, until once and for all one of the leftist parties die and we go to a two party system.

(I know, I know, I'm the crazy two party guy. But I'm just fucking tired of the state of our politics.)

Good god. Why saddle us with that when you could hope for a different electoral system?

 

[maharg]

(I know, I know, I'm the crazy two party guy. But I'm just fucking tired of the state of our politics.)

Still baffles me why you think that'd be any better at all. Yay duopoly on political power...?!

 

[firehawk12]

Good god. Why saddle us with that when you could hope for a different electoral system?

Oh, I'd love something that wasn't FPTP. But we tried it twice and the electorate didn't want it, so I've given up on that bandwagon.

Still baffles me why you think that'd be any better at all. Yay duopoly on political power...?!

Because, as it stands, elections are decided by Ontario and Quebec and the math means that when the Liberals and NDP fight each other for seats there, both parties end up losing.

Hell, I'd even be okay with a merger/agreement. This is what happened with the "Coalition" in Australia and is what allowed the right of center party there to succeed under Howard and probably succeed under Abbott.

If we lived in a country where the 5% of people who "waste" their votes on the Greens could actually elect representative MPs, then I'd be all for multi-party systems. But we don't. Even in America, there are state parties that are just coalitions between various parties that represent themselves under "Democrat" because the alternative is handing the Republicans a guaranteed win. That's just the reality of a winner-take-all system.

I'm sure you might see that as cynical or defeatist. I just see it as pragmatic. lol

 

[maharg]

Because, as it stands, elections are decided by Ontario and Quebec and the math means that when the Liberals and NDP fight each other for seats there, both parties end up losing.

They still would. That's what having half the population of the country means for a democracy that's anywhere close to being represented by population (as ours is vaguely close to being). It's not vote efficiency that gives the central provinces dominance, it's their populations.

All you get by cutting down the parties is cutting off an avenue to regime change. It's incredibly dumb. I don't know how you can live in Canada and be exposed to so much American news and not get how fundamentally broken a two party system is. It's barely even democratic at this point.

By the way, do you like your universal health care? Guess why you have that. A minority government and cooperation between parties while there were three parties.

 

[firehawk12]

They still would. That's what having half the population of the country means for a democracy that's anywhere close to being represented by population (as ours is vaguely close to being). It's not vote efficiency that gives the central provinces dominance, it's their populations.

Oh, I know, but since we live in that reality, having the Liberals and NDP cannibalize each other helps only one party.

That said, maybe the NDP will disappear into irrelevance again and we'll effectively have a two party system like we did during the Martin minority.

 

[maharg]

Oh, I know, but since we live in that reality, having the Liberals and NDP cannibalize each other helps only one party.

That said, maybe the NDP will disappear into irrelevance again and we'll effectively have a two party system like we did during the Martin minority.

This is just nonsense. For most of the history of this country since there've been three parties, the Liberals have dominated the electoral landscape. We've been over this so many times, I feel, but you extrapolate recent history in every direction until all that's left is some eternal now where the CPC will and has ruled forever. It's only been 20 years since the conservative party was reduced to *3 seats* and the Liberals enjoyed over a decade of completely dominant majority government. Have some patience.

And on the subject of defeatist vs. pragmatic, it's only pragmatic if your goal is defeat.