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Canada Poligaf - The Wrath of Harperland

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Mr.Mike

Member
I have no idea what this will mean for the Conservatives in the Senate. I can't imagine he'll ever be in a position to appoint new Senators again. At least not until the next cycle begins.

Harper is the Prime Minister, it's his job to appoint Senators. It does make me wonder how much scandal it's going to take to make serious reforms actually happens. And if we do open up the constitution to change the Senate what other issues will come to the forefront? Could we see a Canadian Republic and a different voting system happen alongside Senate reform?

I suppose my desire for governmental reforms is influencing my hopes/predictions about what all this will lead too.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Harper is the Prime Minister, it's his job to appoint Senators. It does make me wonder how much scandal it's going to take to make serious reforms actually happens. And if we do open up the constitution to change the Senate what other issues will come to the forefront?
Oh, he can appoint Senators, but a) anyone going in is going to be scrutinized to hell and back, and will any serious candidates want that kind of scrutiny? and b) the Liberals and the NDP would have a field day about the Conservatives putting their "friends" into crony positions in the government.

As for reform, it'll never happen. Like abortion, it's just one of those things no one actually wants to talk about because it's such a lose-lose proposition for everyone. I mean, no one wants to suffer the humiliation of another Meech Lake.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Oh, he can appoint Senators, but a) anyone going in is going to be scrutinized to hell and back, and will any serious candidates want that kind of scrutiny? and b) the Liberals and the NDP would have a field day about the Conservatives putting their "friends" into crony positions in the government.

As for reform, it'll never happen. Like abortion, it's just one of those things no one actually wants to talk about because it's such a lose-lose proposition for everyone. I mean, no one wants to suffer the humiliation of another Meech Lake.

My point is that the Senate, like it or not, is a political institution that shouldn't be neglected and allowed to have vacancies starting to pile up because the Prime Minister wants to play it safe politically. The opposition should also attack Harper for failing to fill vacant seats ( in reality the Liberals would probably be plenty happy to let those vacancies be filled by the next Liberal PM, and it might be a bit hypocritical of the NDP to push for the appointment of Senators to an institution it wants to abolish). Regardless, I'm sure Harper will try to fill up the Senate before the next election. A side effect of all this extra scrutiny could be that the Senate finally starts to works a bit more like it was intended to, with the PM being forced to choose Senators in such a way as to not give his opponents something to attack him about. Maybe expect more Senators from academia?

Meech Lake was years before my time, so I guess I don't really appreciate how much it has scared people away from attempting to touch the constitution. But that'll pass with time as less and less voters remember or even know of those events. Reforms will happen eventually, certainly not as soon as I'd like.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
My point is that the Senate, like it or not, is a political institution that shouldn't be neglected and allowed to have vacancies starting to pile up because the Prime Minister wants to play it safe politically. The opposition should also attack Harper for failing to fill vacant seats ( in reality the Liberals would probably be plenty happy to let those vacancies be filled by the next Liberal PM, and it might be a bit hypocritical of the NDP to push for the appointment of Senators to an institution it wants to abolish). Regardless, I'm sure Harper will try to fill up the Senate before the next election. A side effect of all this extra scrutiny could be that the Senate finally starts to works a bit more like it was intended to, with the PM being forced to choose Senators in such a way as to not give his opponents something to attack him about. Maybe expect more Senators from academia?

Meech Lake was years before my time, so I guess I don't really appreciate how much it has scared people away from attempting to touch the constitution. But that'll pass with time as less and less voters remember or even know of those events. Reforms will happen eventually, certainly not as soon as I'd like.

With Meech Lake, it is seen as one of Mulroney's biggest failures. I don't actually know how much PMs care about their "legacy" - like, does George W. Bush understand that he is seen as one of the biggest fuck ups in American history? - but I'm sure it's in the back of everyone's mind anyway.

And here's the thing, Harper avoided appointing senators when he was first elected precisely because he was still in the mode of fighting for his party's principles. The problem was that the Senate was stuffed with Liberals and everything took longer to pass than it should, so he had no choice. So he made up fake rules like "anyone we appoint has to resign in 8 years" and made his appointees promise to do so. Then he started playing politics when, after essentially not winning any seats in Montreal and having no real Quebec representation, he appointed a Quebecor to the Senate and made him a minister in an attempt to try to be "national". And of course, now we know that a lot of his appointees were just getting shills on his ticket to help stump for him in charity events and so forth.

It's just a stupid, sordid history with Harper and the Senate, but of course, no one really pays attention to this stuff. It's like how this nomination of the new Justice has been a bit of a mess because they didn't really do their homework - to the point where some random guy in Ontario is basically suing the government and saying that it is illegal to appoint him to the Supreme Court. I'm sure the government will win or have the suit dismissed, but how the fuck do you let that happen?

I will say, the most interesting thing about an NDP government is how they deal with the senate. They would be the ones who would almost be forced to open the constitutional debate because the alternative would be to have no power in the senate and to beg Liberals for help.
(This is yet another reason why I believe a merger between the NDP and the Liberals is a good idea, but I digress. :p)
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Holy shit. Now Duffy is saying Harper ordered him to pay the money back. Man, I almost wish Duffy was smart enough to record all of this shit. lol
 
Harper needs a Duff beer.

What is up with his double speak in English and in French? just like the NDP.

Conservative Denis Lebel in English says ''oh, 50%+1 is not good to separate''
Conservative Denis Lebel in French says ''oh, 50%+1 is okay to separate''

Conservatives = NDP when it comes to national unity

they think we bilinguals are morons and we won't pick up on their double speak.

Harper out of the blue gets tough on separatists? LOL Mr. Harper who recognized Quebec as a Nation in 2006? Mr. Harper as a Reform Party member in the 90s wanted more autonomy for provinces and was also a proponent of 50%+1 for secession.
 
http://www.ekospolitics.com/index.php/2013/10/liberals-widen-lead-on-eve-of-throne-speech/

I found this on reddit. Seems like the Liberals are going to take back their 1st/2nd place spot next election. But what I found most interesting was this chart.




Does anyone else think they electoral reform is probably going to happen if the Liberals/NDP get elected? Ranked voting would surely benefit the Liberals more than anyone else electorally, which should provide them plenty of motivation to push for it. And the NDP seem to be a pretty popular second choice as well according to that chart, so maybe they would support an effort to change the way we vote as well.

Honestly, I think that the second the NDP or the Liberals get the chance they are going to try Election Reform. The parties themselves aren't stupid and they know from looking at the past few elections that they have a much better chance getting and keeping power in the future if they go through with the reform than if they dont. This is especially true in the case of the Liberals and the NDPs (and lets include Green in here also) because the people on the Left side of politics tend to vote for those two parties interchangeably whereas those on the Right side of politics only have to vote for one party. So I doubt that either party is stupid enough to ignore that one fact that has come up time and time again.

The real question is which Election Reform will win out, the NDPs proposal or the Liberals proposal.
 
Honestly, I think that the second the NDP or the Liberals get the chance they are going to try Election Reform. The parties themselves aren't stupid and they know from looking at the past few elections that they have a much better chance getting and keeping power in the future if they go through with the reform than if they dont. This is especially true in the case of the Liberals and the NDPs (and lets include Green in here also) because the people on the Left side of politics tend to vote for those two parties interchangeably whereas those on the Right side of politics only have to vote for one party. So I doubt that either party is stupid enough to ignore that one fact that has come up time and time again.

The real question is which Election Reform will win out, the NDPs proposal or the Liberals proposal.

And then the CPC will split back to Reform and PC!
 

maharg

idspispopd
If the liberals come back to power they'll just take it as proof that they were just being temporarily punished and that they'll return to their historic dominance once again. Electoral reform would just rock that boat. There is no way in hell they'd go for it in that case.
 

gabbo

Member
Duffy is going to go down swinging

This could get epic

What kind of repercussions [from the RCMP] would the PM be looking at if even some of Duffy's comments end up being true? This can't be slap on the wrist type stuff, can it?
I mean, he's losing the battle on the PR front, but citizens tend to have short memories come election time. Legal trouble however, that's basically pulling out the violin, you're going down with the ship. Or so I'd hope
 
Duffy needs audio or paper proof because Nigel Wright isn't going to toss Harper under the bus and chose Duffy.

Anyway, Harper will try to hold until the very end
 
If the liberals come back to power they'll just take it as proof that they were just being temporarily punished and that they'll return to their historic dominance once again. Electoral reform would just rock that boat. There is no way in hell they'd go for it in that case.

Except ranked ballots would probably help them the most. It would benefit a centrist party the most, and the Liberals have dominated when they own the centre.
 

Azih

Member
Except ranked ballots would probably help them the most. It would benefit a centrist party the most, and the Liberals have dominated when they own the centre.

There's no way either the NDP or the Conservatives would help the Liberals advocate for 'Ranked Ballots'. The NDP and Greens sure will try as hell for the actually sane Proportional Representation though. There's also a sizable faction of Libs (currently being suppressed by Trudeau and his inner circle) that really wants PR as well.

Edit: Anyway Hell hath no fury like a Duffy scorned it seems and his version of events does jibe with the bizarre timeline of his whole affair.
 
I'm wondering if Harper is going to stick around until 2015. I know two years is a long time, and he probably really wants to take on a Trudeau, but the way the last few months have been going, he must be thinking about retirement. He has his massive free trade deal to act as his legacy...what (besides staying in power) does he still want to do?
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I'm wondering if Harper is going to stick around until 2015. I know two years is a long time, and he probably really wants to take on a Trudeau, but the way the last few months have been going, he must be thinking about retirement. He has his massive free trade deal to act as his legacy...what (besides staying in power) does he still want to do?
If he was smart, he'd leave now before he either becomes a lame duck or even worse, loses an election (even if he "wins" a minority). At this point, he can either be remembered like Chretien or remembered like Mulroney/Martin.
 

Azih

Member
Remember the Fourth Senator who was implicated in all these charges? The Liberal guy? Yeah me, neither. Give credit to the Libs, they knew what kind of character they needed to stuff the Senate with, complete party toadies, yes men and yes women loyalists who are willing to quietly fall on their sword when their gig is up and fade away.

These Con Senators on the other hand? Whoah they're going to take everyone down with them. And as someone who wants the Senate abolished I applaud this vindictive blowback and want more. Can't wait for Brazeau.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Remember the Fourth Senator who was implicated in all these charges? The Liberal guy? Yeah me, neither. Give credit to the Libs, they knew what kind of character they needed to stuff the Senate with, complete party toadies, yes men and yes women loyalists who are willing to quietly fall on their sword when their gig is up and fade away.

These Con Senators on the other hand? Whoah they're going to take everyone down with them. And as someone who wants the Senate abolished I applaud this vindictive blowback and want more. Can't wait for Brazeau.

We have no idea what promises Trudeau made to him though. But yes, the RCMP basically said he broke laws yesterday and it became a non-story because of all the stuff that's going on.
 
Who was it again? Mac Harb? That guy was...odd. Really, really odd. I don't think Trudeau would've had to promise him anything, though. Harb was a career backbencher who -- weird statements about aliens and clones aside -- never made any waves. After 25 years in politics, he's probably happy to just retire and enjoy his pension, whereas Wallin, Duffy and Brazeau all seem to enjoy being in the limelight.

If he was smart, he'd leave now before he either becomes a lame duck or even worse, loses an election (even if he "wins" a minority). At this point, he can either be remembered like Chretien or remembered like Mulroney/Martin.

Does anyone even remember Martin's tenure as PM? I think he'll go down in the history books as a good Finance Minister, if anything, and people may blame him and Chretien jointly for ruining the Liberal Party. But apart from that (the whole making his party toxic thing), I don't see how he and Mulroney are remembered similarly in any way...Mulroney still inspires visceral hatred from a lot of people. Who hates Paul Martin in the same way?
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
To me, he is like Gordon Brown in that his thirst for power drove out the stronger personality and lead to the ruination of the party and the loss of his government. The only consolation is that at least he is not Kevin Rudd.
 

gabbo

Member
Does anyone even remember Martin's tenure as PM? I think he'll go down in the history books as a good Finance Minister, if anything, and people may blame him and Chretien jointly for ruining the Liberal Party. But apart from that (the whole making his party toxic thing), I don't see how he and Mulroney are remembered similarly in any way...Mulroney still inspires visceral hatred from a lot of people. Who hates Paul Martin in the same way?

I'll remember him better for in-fighting with Chretien and losing an easy majority, but not a lot of hate for his tenure as PM. His decisions/policies as Finance Minister on the other hand.
 
They were harsh policies, for sure -- though, in his defense, heavy cuts were probably unavoidable, and someone was going to have to make them. But I still don't see how he could be compared to Mulroney. I mean, I kind of like Mulroney (speaking as a one-time Red Tory), and I think a lot of the stuff he did -- leading the charge against apartheid, implementing some strong environmental policies, even free trade -- was a positive for Canada. But he was still pretty corrupt, and everyone had that overarching impression of him by the time he left office. Martin wasn't like that at all.

Also, totally unrelated: I just tried explaining the Munsinger Affair to a bunch of Americans who didn't believe Canada could ever have a sex scandal in its politics. I don't think they believed me.
 

Azih

Member
They were harsh policies, for sure -- though, in his defense, heavy cuts were probably unavoidable, and someone was going to have to make them. But I still don't see how he could be compared to Mulroney. I mean, I kind of like Mulroney (speaking as a one-time Red Tory), and I think a lot of the stuff he did -- leading the charge against apartheid, implementing some strong environmental policies, even free trade -- was a positive for Canada. But he was still pretty corrupt, and everyone had that overarching impression of him by the time he left office. Martin wasn't like that at all.

Also, totally unrelated: I just tried explaining the Munsinger Affair to a bunch of Americans who didn't believe Canada could ever have a sex scandal in its politics. I don't think they believed me.

Margaret Trudeau man.
 

gabbo

Member
They were harsh policies, for sure -- though, in his defense, heavy cuts were probably unavoidable, and someone was going to have to make them. But I still don't see how he could be compared to Mulroney. I mean, I kind of like Mulroney (speaking as a one-time Red Tory), and I think a lot of the stuff he did -- leading the charge against apartheid, implementing some strong environmental policies, even free trade -- was a positive for Canada. But he was still pretty corrupt, and everyone had that overarching impression of him by the time he left office. Martin wasn't like that at all.

Also, totally unrelated: I just tried explaining the Munsinger Affair to a bunch of Americans who didn't believe Canada could ever have a sex scandal in its politics. I don't think they believed me.

I wouldn't compare him to Mulroney either, nor really see how one could.
That being said, I'm no Mulroney fan.

I had never heard of that scandal, but yes, what Azih said. In my life time, I can't recall a sex scandal that did anything more than cast moral aspersions on those involved, and usually not political attacks. Again, that I can recall.
 
The Munsinger Affair scandal only stayed with me because of one hilarious detail: The RCMP had bugged the hotel room where Munsinger (a German stripper/suspected Soviet spy) was staying in Montreal. When they listened to the recordings, they got everything they needed on the Diefenbaker cabinet ministers, but they were puzzled by a loud thumping noise that happened at the beginning of every encounter. Eventually they figured it out: it was the sound of one of the cabinet ministers, Pierre Sevigny, unstrapping his wooden leg and dropping it on the floor.
 
Who was it again? Mac Harb? That guy was...odd. Really, really odd. I don't think Trudeau would've had to promise him anything, though. Harb was a career backbencher who -- weird statements about aliens and clones aside -- never made any waves. After 25 years in politics, he's probably happy to just retire and enjoy his pension, whereas Wallin, Duffy and Brazeau all seem to enjoy being in the limelight.



Does anyone even remember Martin's tenure as PM? I think he'll go down in the history books as a good Finance Minister, if anything, and people may blame him and Chretien jointly for ruining the Liberal Party. But apart from that (the whole making his party toxic thing), I don't see how he and Mulroney are remembered similarly in any way...Mulroney still inspires visceral hatred from a lot of people. Who hates Paul Martin in the same way?

Paul Martin will be remembered as the only Finance Minister who continusouly ballanced budget surplusus.

His tenure as PM was dogged by Chretien's ad-scam, can't fault Martin on that. But eh

Mulroney! everyone will remember him as the mortgage killer. Inflation, insane interest rates, how many people lost their homes during his years? and cozying up with separatists who then stabbed him in the back that created the Bloc
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I'll remember him better for in-fighting with Chretien and losing an easy majority, but not a lot of hate for his tenure as PM. His decisions/policies as Finance Minister on the other hand.
That's it for me basically. Now, part of the reasons why the Liberals finally started losing was because of the new right wing party, but how he handled adscam was almost a fiasco. Chretien would have found a way to turn the whole thing into a handwave.

Of course, perhaps he saw it coming and that's why he was so willing to go in the first place. lol
 

maharg

idspispopd
That's it for me basically. Now, part of the reasons why the Liberals finally started losing was because of the new right wing party, but how he handled adscam was almost a fiasco. Chretien would have found a way to turn the whole thing into a handwave.

Of course, perhaps he saw it coming and that's why he was so willing to go in the first place. lol

Chretien did find a way. He quit. He pulled a Mulroney, with similar, though not quite so disastrous effect.
 
Allegedly, Chretien offered to fall on his sword and take the blame for it, but Martin -- foreshadowing what a forgettable PM he'd end up being -- refused that, because he wanted it to look like he was taking bold, decisive action against corruption. Clearly not the wisest move, but that's the rumour.

I think Chretien would've been able to whitewash it all, though. Does anyone remember the Billion Dollar Boondoggle? Six months before the 2000 Federal Election, the AG report showed that the government had somehow misplaced around a billion dollars. Just couldn't account for where any of it had gone. He turned that around into a defense of government spending, and had his House Whip (Don Boudria) deflect every question that came his way in QP with a binder full of how much the government had spent in every riding. It was totally avoiding the question, but it worked, and the next fall they gained something like 30 seats (they were helped, of course, by running against Stockwell Day).

I think Chretien would've pulled the same thing with Adscam, and I think it would've worked. A defense of keeping the country together during its darkest post-referendum days, a little of his APEC ("Pepper? I put it on my plate.") charm, and people would've forgotten all about it by the time Martin came to power.
 
nothing stuck on Chretien because he would make a wise crack joke and ignore it.

it dogged on Martin because he decided to go ahead with an inquiry (using a pro-Mulroney judge?) LOL so all the blame stuck on

Harper has been on ignore mode for the past 8 years but the Senate Sandal is too heavy when you have Wallin and Duffy ready to to onto the airwaves and spill the beans
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Allegedly, Chretien offered to fall on his sword and take the blame for it, but Martin -- foreshadowing what a forgettable PM he'd end up being -- refused that, because he wanted it to look like he was taking bold, decisive action against corruption. Clearly not the wisest move, but that's the rumour.

I think Chretien would've been able to whitewash it all, though. Does anyone remember the Billion Dollar Boondoggle? Six months before the 2000 Federal Election, the AG report showed that the government had somehow misplaced around a billion dollars. Just couldn't account for where any of it had gone. He turned that around into a defense of government spending, and had his House Whip (Don Boudria) deflect every question that came his way in QP with a binder full of how much the government had spent in every riding. It was totally avoiding the question, but it worked, and the next fall they gained something like 30 seats (they were helped, of course, by running against Stockwell Day).

I think Chretien would've pulled the same thing with Adscam, and I think it would've worked. A defense of keeping the country together during its darkest post-referendum days, a little of his APEC ("Pepper? I put it on my plate.") charm, and people would've forgotten all about it by the time Martin came to power.
Yeah, I think he would have been able to do something to turn it around. Hell, remember when he got called to the Gomery inquiry and basically humiliated Gomery by pulling out golf balls that other world leaders had given him. Fucking boss.

I'm sorry, what?
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/10/23/rcmp_raises_questions_about_mac_harb_mortgages.html
Mortgage fraud. No one cares because the Conservatives are on fire though. lol

Chretien did find a way. He quit. He pulled a Mulroney, with similar, though not quite so disastrous effect.
For me, it felt like Chretien quit on a high while Mulroney quit knowing that he was going to go down in flames either way.
 

Boogie

Member

lacinius

Member
Does anyone remember the Billion Dollar Boondoggle? Six months before the 2000 Federal Election, the AG report showed that the government had somehow misplaced around a billion dollars. Just couldn't account for where any of it had gone.


Bit off topic, but there actually was no "Billion Dollar Boondoggle". That term was first used by Preston Manning, for obvious reasons, in response to the result of the HRDC's own internal audit that started in 1998 and had found some deficiencies in its paperwork and accounting. It was unknown at the time the HRDC first made the results public if or how much money was unaccounted for. The billion+ dollar figure, immediately exploited by Manning, was the total value of the almost 17000 case files the HRDC was handling. The audit was done on a random sample of about 450 files.

After the results of the audit were made public, the department set forth a plan to improve its practices, and the 2000 Auditor Generals report made note of the significant corrective actions made by the department to fix the deficiencies found in the audit.

So how much money of the "Billion Dollar Boondoggle" was actually left unaccounted for... after reviewing all 17000 files, totalling about $1.3billion, it was found that there were only six overpayments made, at a total loss to the government of about $3200. A billion dollar boondoggle indeed... thanks Preston, you ignorant fuck.
 

gabbo

Member
Chretien did find a way. He quit. He pulled a Mulroney, with similar, though not quite so disastrous effect.

Chretien was riding into the sunset on a cloud of populist support.
Weed? decriminalized. Gay marriage? Go for it. Attack Iraq? No thanks, Dubya.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Swearing to an affidavit as part of a criminal investigation != "the RCMP basically said he broke the law"

You are overselling the significance of a document that is just a part of an ongoing investigation.

If and when charges are laid, you can break out that statement, not before.
Well, I suppose that's true. Still, news that's fit to be conveniently buried either way!

Chretien was riding into the sunset on a cloud of populist support.
Weed? decriminalized. Gay marriage? Go for it. Attack Iraq? No thanks, Dubya.
Ah, such good times. lol
 

maharg

idspispopd
Chretien was riding into the sunset on a cloud of populist support.
Weed? decriminalized. Gay marriage? Go for it. Attack Iraq? No thanks, Dubya.

(also several other posts)

Just because he was more popular than Mulroney was when the shit hit the fan doesn't mean leaving didn't save him from the destruction of his legacy. Tipping points are powerful things and people underestimate them, especially in Canadian politics.
 
Some parts of his legacy have been destroyed, but I don't see how they're connected to the way he left office. Harper got rid of the vote subsidy, but there's no way he's going to touch corporate donations. The record budget surplus is long gone, but let's be realistic: a Conservative government was never going to be competent enough to keep that going, regardless of what happened.Pot decriminalization has been on and off the table for 40 years now, so his failure to get that done is hardly unique.

Beyond that...gay marriage is a settled issue. The fact we didn't offer military aid for Syria suggests that Iraq established a pretty high bar for Canadian military intervention.

What else is left? Kyoto? Team Canada trade missions? I think Firehawk has it right...you just have to look at the reaction he got during Gomery to see people generally still liked him, regardless of how he left office. Martin being such an inept flameout probably helped him a lot.

Bit off topic, but there actually was no "Billion Dollar Boondoggle". That term was first used by Preston Manning, for obvious reasons, in response to the result of the HRDC's own internal audit that started in 1998 and had found some deficiencies in its paperwork and accounting. It was unknown at the time the HRDC first made the results public if or how much money was unaccounted for. The billion+ dollar figure, immediately exploited by Manning, was the total value of the almost 17000 case files the HRDC was handling. The audit was done on a random sample of about 450 files.

After the results of the audit were made public, the department set forth a plan to improve its practices, and the 2000 Auditor Generals report made note of the significant corrective actions made by the department to fix the deficiencies found in the audit.

So how much money of the "Billion Dollar Boondoggle" was actually left unaccounted for... after reviewing all 17000 files, totalling about $1.3billion, it was found that there were only six overpayments made, at a total loss to the government of about $3200. A billion dollar boondoggle indeed... thanks Preston, you ignorant fuck.

Huh. Did not know that. So it was basically the original Adscam (that is, scandalous-sounding at first, with the reality being significantly less bad), except Chretien knew that running around yelling "WORST SCANDAL EVER!" made for terrible politics.
 

Azih

Member
Let's not overstate Chretien too much. He wasn't a great leader as he basically let Martin run the government as Finance Minister while he ran the election campaigns. He had the most finely honed killer political campaign instincts though and he basically kept calling elections when his main opposition was at its most splintered allowing him to win majorities with less than 38% of the vote in one election.

Kyoto, the pledge to end child poverty, offloading billions of costs onto the provinces,... it was only at the very end that he pulled back from the fully right wing (though competent) policies that Martin was implementing.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
That's the thing, as a politician, he was just amazing to watch. I mean, he basically lied about GST and got away with it, only to go on to win another election the next time around.
 

gabbo

Member
(also several other posts)

Just because he was more popular than Mulroney was when the shit hit the fan doesn't mean leaving didn't save him from the destruction of his legacy. Tipping points are powerful things and people underestimate them, especially in Canadian politics.

Oh, I didn't mean to say it wasn't an opportune time to GTFO on his part, it was. And if I hadn't been 8 when he took office I'd probably have disliked a lot of his/Martin's fiscal policies, I just don't think his leaving before the Gomery report was finished is the only thing to 'save his legacy', nor do I think it took him down a peg either.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Some parts of his legacy have been destroyed, but I don't see how they're connected to the way he left office.

I recognize that I used a double negative and so that might have been confusing, but what I was saying was that leaving helped *save* his legacy, not that leaving destroyed it. If he'd been dragged through the mud on the sponsorship scandal it would have done a lot of damage to his image. Martin fell on that knife for him, though.

Basically, part of being a political operator like Chretien is knowing when you're about to get steamrollered and it's time to leave, and that's exactly what Chretien did.
 
I don't want a reformed senate where senators are elected by the people.

A USA scenario of gridlock is not in Canada's best interest at pushing legislation.

I rather ABOLISH the Senate then see it reformed with elected senators.[
Let's not overstate Chretien too much. He wasn't a great leader as he basically let Martin run the government as Finance Minister while he ran the election campaigns. He had the most finely honed killer political campaign instincts though and he basically kept calling elections when his main opposition was at its most splintered allowing him to win majorities with less than 38% of the vote in one election.

Kyoto, the pledge to end child poverty, offloading billions of costs onto the provinces,... it was only at the very end that he pulled back from the fully right wing (though competent) policies that Martin was implementing.

if you believe that Chretien was asleep at the wheel, you are mistaken.

Chretien was a iron handed leader of the party.
Martin wanted to go to Iraq, Chretien said fuck no.

Martin camp wanted Chretien out and not run a 3rd term; Jean listened to his wife and said 'fuck them, I'm running a 3rd term''

Martin was a great finance minister, yeah I give him that. But to belittle credit as snoozing is quite laughable .
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I don't want a reformed senate where senators are elected by the people.

A USA scenario of gridlock is not in Canada's best interest at pushing legislation.

I rather ABOLISH the Senate then see it reformed with elected senators.[
if you believe that Chretien was asleep at the wheel, you are mistaken.

The flip side is that the Senate would probably be more balanced, inasmuch as if we are stuck with the horrible FPTP system for the rest of our lives in terms of voting for the House, then at least the Senate has a better chance of representing the "will" of the electorate in terms of representation.

And maybe the NDP would be forced to shut up and just run Senators, which would be funny to see. lol
 

maharg

idspispopd
The flip side is that the Senate would probably be more balanced, inasmuch as if we are stuck with the horrible FPTP system for the rest of our lives in terms of voting for the House, then at least the Senate has a better chance of representing the "will" of the electorate in terms of representation.

And maybe the NDP would be forced to shut up and just run Senators, which would be funny to see. lol

There's really no reason to believe that making the senate elected and proportional would be easier than making the house truly proportional. Afaik the house can change its election system by simple statute, whereas changing the senate requires a much more complicated process.

If you doubt the political will for house reform you may as well doubt the political will for senate reform as well. Part of the reason senate reform will probably never happen is that proponents of it are completely split on how it should be reformed, so any given proposal is likely to fail.

Also if the senate were proportional and elected, why wouldn't the ndp run for it? How would that be shutting up? Their aim of eliminating unelected representatives would have been achieved.
 
Related: Quebec court rejects Conservative government Senate reform plan

That's from a few hours ago. Obviously, the Supreme Court could overrule that, and say that Harper can unilaterally reform the Senate, but I have a hard time imagining them saying one person (or branch of government) is allowed to unilaterally change the Constitution. And if that ends up being the case, he'd be forced to open up a Charter/Constitutional debate...like Maharg said, I can't imagine the political will would be there. Even if he doesn't care much for national unity, the risk of it exploding in his face seems like it'd be much greater than the reward of an elected Senate.
 
Atlantic Provinces + Quebec will never allow the Senate to be abolished.

You need 7 provinces + 50% of the people to vote for the change.

So you got 5 provinces w the 2nd most populous province going nope nope, no abolish
 
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