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How twisted have you got to be to have the police charge at people of all ages on polling stations and when the elder are hurt claim they were used at human shields? Have you no shame?

 

[mocolostrocolos]

You missed my point completely.

A competent government would have prevented this. Since when parents do not bring children to vote (at a school, of all dangerous places)

Human shield would have been to bring your children to a demonstration against the police, which clearly is not the case.

No, you've missed mine.

Of course you can take your kid with you when you go to vote.

What's wrong is that knowing you're commiting an illegal act as participating in this illegal referendum, where you know beforehand there will be police enforcers you take your kid to the ballots.

That's what I mean by using kids as human shields to prevent police for doing their job.

 

[Nintendo's Witch]

you are accusing them of staging that?

Is pretty obvious.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Just an informative video for reference here:

https://youtu.be/G-jCCytkwVQ

For those of you who don't speak spanish, the ballot bin was FULL of votes already.

How democratic, uh?

They were hiding the voting papers inside the ballots. Those ballots were being transported to the college, not already being transported for counting votes.

Meanwhile:

https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632

 

[marcbret87]

Just an informative video for reference here:

https://youtu.be/G-jCCytkwVQ

For those of you who don't speak spanish, the ballot bin was FULL of votes already.

How democratic, uh?

The referendum result doesn't matter. It's obvious it's a complete joke with people being able to vote wherever they want (universal census), rules changing last minute... What the pro-independence people was to be able to claim that repression is taking place from the Madrid government. And it seems Rajoy is happily playing along.

 

[Striek]

This thread is shameless propaganda vs. shameless propaganda. Like there is no nuance or subtlety or believing people actually care about the outcome from an ethical perspective. As an aussie with no horse in this race and little knowledge of the background issues its super frustrating to read.

 

[Xando]

This thread is shameless propaganda vs. shameless propaganda. Like there is no nuance or subtlety or believing people actually care about the outcome from an ethical perspective. As an aussie with no horse in this race and little knowledge of the background issues its super frustrating to read.

Yeah pretty much. I don't know that much about the referendum but from what i read the response from the catalonians and the central goverment has been a joke.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

Telecinco? I'll need a reliable source to believe that.

Yeah all those people look like poorly paid actors.

/s

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

This thread is shameless propaganda vs. shameless propaganda. Like there is no nuance or subtlety or believing people actually care about the outcome from an ethical perspective. As an aussie with no horse in this race and little knowledge of the background issues its super frustrating to read.

This is not propaganda:

https://twitter.com/lamarea_com/status/914409485455777793

https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/914406213701574656

This is repression.

 

[Tiamant]

Yeah all those people look like poorly paid actors.

/s

Or maybe, you know, there's a reason for that as a poster explained a few posts above?

People so concerned about a valid votation should be concerned about allowing a valid referendum.

 

[Xando]

This is not propaganda:

https://twitter.com/lamarea_com/status/914409485455777793

This is repression.

While police is obviously far too agressive these people still participate in illegal activities don't they?

 

[mocolostrocolos]

This is not propaganda:

https://twitter.com/lamarea_com/status/914409485455777793

https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/914406213701574656

This is repression.

This is disgusting.

 

[Nokterian]

This is not propaganda:

https://twitter.com/lamarea_com/status/914409485455777793

https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/914406213701574656

This is repression.

This is not democracy, this is becoming civil war.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

Or maybe, you know, there's a reason for that as a poster explained a few posts above?

People so concerned about a valid votation should be concerned about allowing a valid referendum.

Oh believe me, I'm with you on that. Rajoy is an incompetent asshole and should allow a valid referendum to take place, what is going on right now is nothing more than a farce.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Englishmen calling other countries a joke because they dont wanna get rid of a territory, now i have seen it all.

The territories across the Empire were allowed their independence. Scotland, a country a part of the Union dating back hundreds of years was allowed the opportunity for independence in a peaceful and legal manner that would have been honoured.

Yes, we consider this current mess to be a joke.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

This is not democracy, this is becoming civil war.

Hyperbole.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

While police is obviously far too agressive these people still participate in illegal activities don't they?

Some things may be illegal, that dosn't make them right. Millions of people wanting to vote should be not illegal.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Hyperbole.

Absolutely.
But I admit that it's a thought that crossed my mind.
Not what this is, but where, worst case scenario, this could lead.

 

[Nokterian]

Absolutely.
But I admit that it's a thought that crossed my mind.
Not what this is, but where, worst case scenario, this could lead.

It is fascism, these type of things lead towards something that isn't democracy.

 

[Xando]

Some things may be illegal, that dosn't make them right. Millions of people wanting to vote should be not illegal.

This is exactly my criticism for the catalan goverment.

Why provoke this escalation for a referendum that isn't gonna get recognized by anyone but russia? Should've worked until there is a credible independence option.

A blind man could have seen Rajoy is gonna fall for it and escalate this situation.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

Some things may be illegal, that dosn't make them right. Millions of people wanting to vote should be not illegal.

But it is.

IMO, after this clusterfuck there should be a revision in the Constitución, and change the law to make self determination binding referendums legal.

Shamefully, this won't happen.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

This is exactly my criticism for the catalan goverment.

Why provoke this escalation for a referendum that isn't gonna get recognized by anyone but russia?

A blind man could have seen Rajoy is gonna fall for it and escalate this situation.

That's the point of Puidgemont, Junqueras and CUP. They want to be the victims against the Central Government.

They want to be opressed and repressed, it what gives 'em wings to keep tighten rope.

Their political message is vaccum besides 'Espanya ens roba'. There's nothing else.

 

[His Majesty]

While police is obviously far too agressive these people still participate in illegal activities don't they?

Most independence movements in the history of the world have been illegal. Because they want to secede from a system in which they don't feel represented. And of course that system doesn't allow for an amicable divorce.

Good to see true democracy at work.

 

[Xando]

That's the point of Puidgemont, Junqueras and CUP. They want to be the victims against the Central Government.

They want to be opressed and repressed, it what gives 'em wings to keep tighten rope.

Their political message is vaccum besides 'Espanya ens roba'. There's nothing else.

It's a shame some very valid pro independence arguments get hijacked for such a PR stunt.

Most independence movements in the history of the world have been illegal. Because they want to secede from a system in which they don't feel represented. And of course that system doesn't allow for an amicable divorce.

Good to see true democracy at work.

Unless i misread the independence movement itself isn't illegal?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

https://twitter.com/ghof1978/status/914412161295962112

This is exactly my criticism for the catalan goverment.

Why provoke this escalation for a referendum that isn't gonna get recognized by anyone but russia? Should've worked until there is a credible independence option.

A blind man could have seen Rajoy is gonna fall for it and escalate this situation.

Because for more than 10 years, spanish goverment refused any dialogue about a referendum and also this:

This Law was approved by referendum on 18 June 2006 and supplanted the Statute of Sau, which dated from 1979. Four years later, on June 28 of 2010, the Constitutional Court of Spain assessed the constitutionality of several articles of the Law,[2] rewriting 14 of them and dictating the interpretation for 27 more. That led to a massive demonstration in Barcelona of more than a million people[3][4] under the slogan in Catalan Som una nació. Nosaltres decidim (in English, "We are a nation. We decide").

In the last years independency support went from 11% to 48%, and raising....

Most people in Catalonia want a referendum and the central government is refusing to listening.

 

[Niel]

We need to kick out the central government right now. This cannot be tolerated any longer.

 

[Xando]

Because for more than 10 years, spanish goverment refused any dialogue about a referendum and also this:



In the last years independency support went from 11% to 48%, and raising....

Most people in Catalonia want a referendum and the central government is refusing to listening.

These are all very valid criticisms of the central goverment but it doesn't change the fact that this referendum will not be recognized by anyone but russia.

So i wonder what is really the plan of catalonians if they vote for independence today?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

These are all very valid criticisms of the central goverment but it doesn't change the fact that this referendum will not be recognized by anyone but russia.

At this point is not about the recogniztion of the referendum, is about the will of the people to vote.

 

[Javier23]

This thread is shameless propaganda vs. shameless propaganda. Like there is no nuance or subtlety or believing people actually care about the outcome from an ethical perspective. As an aussie with no horse in this race and little knowledge of the background issues its super frustrating to read.

Welcome to Spanish politics. It's even worse witnessing it from the inside. We are a very young democracy with very little political culture yet. It's always this dumb.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

These are all very valid criticisms of the central goverment but it doesn't change the fact that this referendum will not be recognized by anyone but russia.

Cataluña won't be a recognised state in the EU, and still many who are participating in this think they are.

 

[Xando]

At this point is not about the recogniztion of the referendum, is about the will of the people to vote.

Let's say the people vote for independence and catalonia declares independence tomorrow.

Suddenly they're out of the EU and most likely be embargoed from trading with spain.

What then?

Cataluña won't be a recognised state in the EU, and still many who are participating in this think they are.

Yeah they'll be in the same situation as scotland except spain will veto any application to join.

I support the general idea of independence but this seems poorly thought through.

 

[ClosingADoor]

In the last years independency support went from 11% to 48%, and raising....

Most people in Catalonia want a referendum and the central government is refusing to listening.

If support for independence shot up that quickly, it sounds more like people wanting to stick it to the government then actually thinking about what independence for Catalonia would mean. Basically its like all the populist movements in Europe with people doing protest votes, and it doesn't help anyone.

At this point is not about the recogniztion of the referendum, is about the will of the people to vote.

These are words that sound nice, but don't really mean much. You can't measure the will of the people with a referendum like this.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Let's say the people vote for independence and catalonia declares independence tomorrow.

Suddenly they're out of the EU and most likely be embargoed from trading with spain.

What then?

That's up to the people?

I mean, we agree that it would be an economic disaster, but is the people who should decide if they still want ti.

 

[zonetrooper5]

Englishmen calling other countries a joke because they dont wanna get rid of a territory, now i have seen it all.

We gave the Scots the chance to break away from us in 2014, Falklands has had multiple referendums on whether they want to stay part of the British Oversea Territories and same with Gibraltar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002

Maybe the Spanish should learn a thing or two and allow them to have a referendum.

 

[His Majesty]

These are all very valid criticisms of the central goverment but it doesn't change the fact that this referendum will not be recognized by anyone but russia.

So i wonder what is really the plan of catalonians if they vote for independence today?

Seeing the proceedings of the referendum, I think it will be impossible to accumulate an accurate and representative tally of the votes. So I don't think Catalonia will proclaim independence but this referendum has certainly convinced more and more people to turn away from Spain.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Let's say the people vote for independence and catalonia declares independence tomorrow.

Suddenly they're out of the EU and most likely be embargoed from trading with spain.

What then?



Yeah they'll be in the same situation as scotland except spain will veto any application to join.

I support the general idea of independence but this seems poorly thought through.

Scotland would have had the potential to join the EU as a completely independent state, but not immediately as they were hoping. Of course that's moot because Spain would have vetoed their admission too because of the Catalonian issue.

 

[His Majesty]

If support for independence shot up that quickly, it sounds more like people wanting to stick it to the government then actually thinking about what independence for Catalonia would mean. Basically its like all the populist movements in Europe with people doing protest votes, and it doesn't help anyone.


These are words that sound nice, but don't really mean much. You can't measure the will of the people with a referendum like this.

The latest poll indicated 80% of the Catalan people was in favour of holding a referendum. If that doesn't tell you enough about the will of the people to vote, then I don't know what will.

 

[Westbahnhof]

That's up to the people?

I mean, we agree that it would be an economic disaster, but is the people who should decide if they still want ti.

I've never understood this "just let them kill themselves" attitude.
We don't let children drink bleach.
And I think that's not too terrible analogy, as I believe that when it comes to these issues, most people don't realize the extent of the possible damage.

Scotland would have had the potential to join the EU as a completely independent state, but not immediately as they were hoping. Of course that's moot because Spain would have vetoed their admission too because of the Catalonian issue.

I may be misremembering, but I thought Spaain said they wouldn't veto if the independence happened in a legal referendum, basically with the UK's blessings?

 

[Lagunamov]

Cataluña won't be a recognised state in the EU, and still many who are participating in this think they are.

If Catalunya declares the independence (that is not gonna happen anyways) the EU would accept them without even thinking about that. There are several reasons behind this argument (propaganda, brexit, economics...) but the most important one is that they are not interested in having a non-eu territory between France and Spain (with all the consequences) with a huge harbor that is the main gate to the mediterranean sea.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

That's up to the people?

I mean, we agree that it would be an economic disaster, but is the people who should decide if they still want ti.

This is irresponsible.

 

[Frankfurter]

The central government is playing perfectly into the hands of those Catalunian politicians. Now the central government seems like the Bad guy while those brave Catalunians are fighting for their freedom, being beaten down by Police forces.

 

[KonradLaw]

I wonder what will happen if the overall vote is for yes but at the same time there will be some cities/villages that vill vote no. Should those cities stay in Spain or not?

 

[Kain]

The point is, if some catalan people want to leave, the spanish gov and its people from their position of power, should try and convince them to stay and change their minds. Instead they literally say "shut up and obey, you people are annoying". That's used by the most extremist to justify their claims and we have a mess. This shit has no fixing, tomorrow will be a fun day to witness.

 

[barber]

That is bullshit, if Catalunya declares the independence (that is not gonna happen anyways) the EU would accept them without even thinking about that. There are several reasons behind this argument (propaganda, brexit, economics...) but the most important one is that they are not interested in having a non-eu territory between France and Spain (with all the consequences) with a huge harbor that is the main gate to the mediterranean sea.

Every country has a veto power in acceptibg a new country, good luck convincing Italy, France and Spain

 

[ClosingADoor]

The latest poll indicated 80% of the Catalan people was in favour of holding a referendum. If that doesn't tell you enough about the will of the people to vote, then I don't know what will.

And then what? You got an invalid referendum, filled with people who showed up to vote yes probably giving an inaccurate result. Nobody is clear on what will happen when going independent, so what are they voting for.

It sounds like a mess both from Barcelona and Madrid. And maybe they need some international organizations to tell them to sit down and work shit out like adults. This all doesn't help anyone.

If Catalunya declares the independence (that is not gonna happen anyways) the EU would accept them without even thinking about that. There are several reasons behind this argument (propaganda, brexit, economics...) but the most important one is that they are not interested in having a non-eu territory between France and Spain (with all the consequences) with a huge harbor that is the main gate to the mediterranean sea.

No. Why would the EU allow this. It will only fuel other independence movements in their countries. A single country can veto. So why should Spain accept them joining the EU like this?

 

[Javier23]

If Catalunya declares the independence (that is not gonna happen anyways) the EU would accept them without even thinking about that. There are several reasons behind this argument (propaganda, brexit, economics...) but the most important one is that they are not interested in having a non-eu territory between France and Spain (with all the consequences) with a huge harbor that is the main gate to the mediterranean sea.

Not that easy, mate.

 

[Lagunamov]

Every country has a veto power in acceptibg a new country, good luck convincing Italy, France and Spain

Why France and Italy would vote no?

 

[Tiamant]

The central government is playing perfectly into the hands of those Catalunian politicians. Now the central government seems like the Bad guy while those brave Catalunians are fighting for their freedom, being beaten down by Police forces.

Yeah, the profranquist Spanish government are looking like the Bad Guys, how odd eh?

The way you picture it sounds like someone forced them to send an army of policemen to beat people. They say this referendum is meaningless but then go at such lengths to stop it, mmm...

 

[tuxfool]

If Catalunya declares the independence (that is not gonna happen anyways) the EU would accept them without even thinking about that. There are several reasons behind this argument (propaganda, brexit, economics...) but the most important one is that they are not interested in having a non-eu territory between France and Spain (with all the consequences) with a huge harbor that is the main gate to the mediterranean sea.

You do realize that eu policy needs to be ratified by every nation state in the EU? Spain would have Veto power in that situation.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Why France and Italy would vote no?

Because each of those country have their separatist movement.

Belgium would agree but only because the Flemish in power want to leave.