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[ClosingADoor]

Police shooting voters with plastic rounds (forbidden in Catalonia since 2014)

https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632

I can't wait for the victim blaming spin.

I hate videos like this. I mean, it could all be true. But the dude fires down towards the street here it seems. I don't see anyone getting hit.

 

[Ac30]

Because each of those country have their separatist movement.

Belgium would agree but only because the Flemish in power want to leave.

Only the N-VA want to leave and even they've sorta backtracked on that campaign promise - doesn't stop them from parading the Catalonia situation though. So yeah even the Belgians would probably veto this.

 

[Onyar]

I could vote!
After a lot of hours and despiste the facist govement I could go to to a voting point. This is a fuckong dictatorshit, police is at everywhere.


FUCK OFF SPAIN

 

[aygomyownroad]

If Catalonia declares independence, then they are out of the EU. Spain is not going to accept them as an EU or EEA member state.

The Scotland/Brexit situation was entirely different. None of the other EU member states would have any animosity against Scotland being part of the EU.

But reading some comments in here (the EU has always been flexible, it won't be that bad) just goes on to show how many people just don't know how the EU actually works and how decisions are made.

Wrong with Scotland. Had we gained independence the Spain would have blocked us the whole way in fear of Catalonia getting ideas.

This is undemocratic. They should be allowed a legal referendum, let them decide.

 

[His Majesty]

Doesn't mean that Putin isn't happy to take any chance to foster dissension within the EU.

And the fascists are on the side of Spain. What's your point?

 

[tuxfool]

So you were referring to the Scotland part, not the Catalonia part? Though you were saying Spain would have to accept Catalonia as part of the EU.

Sorry. Yeah.

Spain would be leery of helping any newly independent state having an easy transition.

(ignoring the fact that even without veto, forming a independent nation and joining the EU is fucking difficult)

 

[Tiamant]

I hate videos like this. I mean, it could all be true. But the dude fires down towards the street here it seems. I don't see anyone getting hit.

https://twitter.com/lamarea_com/status/914409485455777793

For non-spanish speakers: "rubber round hits demonstrator on the face. police was pointing upward, not downward"

 

[Onyar]

I have tons of pictures and videos, but internet is kind of slow now. I can update it when i will came back home, Im still protecting the voting point.

 

[Xando]

And the fascists are on the side of Spain. What's your point?

Do you even know what fascism is or are you just throwing terms into the ring?

 

[SporeCrawler]

France-Corsica and Italiy -South Tyrol
Plus all the shit can that would be that.
A referendum should be done and the constitution changed to a more federal approach, but we had two chances of changing government not that long ago and we fucked up big time.

Add Germany - Bayern and East Germany.

 

[Dehnus]

Catalan independence has been a thing longer than Putin's been alive. not everything is Russia.

I know that, but it's no secret that Putin's Russia has financed and goaded left and right-wing populists and secession movements to create chaos.

This is one of them that is known. Rajoy, being the conservative Franco loving fascist that he is, fell right in the trap set for him.

Sorry writing this on a phone.

 

[MisterFalcon]

I hate videos like this. I mean, it could all be true. But the dude fires down towards the street here it seems. I don't see anyone getting hit.

That is how rubber bullets are meant to be used.

The intended use is to fire at the ground so that the round bounces up and hits the target on the legs, causing pain but not injury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet

It's not shooting to kill but still shooting at people.

 

[Walshicus]

Doesn't mean that Putin isn't happy to take any chance to foster dissension within the EU.

There wouldn't BE dissention if the Spanish state stopped acting like their fascist predecessors and allowed a democratic vote. Just like Westminster did.

 

[aygomyownroad]

Can I ask any Catalonian posters here, what was the general consensus for the vote before all of this?

Was it widely talked about from people wanting to stay in Spain? Was there any fear from expressing your views in public?

Has the reaction by the Spanish government changed any views from voters?

 

[His Majesty]

Do you even know what fascism is or are you just throwing terms into the ring?

What's this then? just an innocent street choir I suppose

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjUGZ-ZWPUQ

 

[Shiggy]

Sorry. Yeah.

Spain would be leery of helping any newly independent state having an easy transition.

(ignoring the fact that even without veto, forming a independent nation and joining the EU is fucking difficult)

Please see my edit to the post as there was a 't' missing on the "thought", which makes it then sound as if I blame you for me reading your post wrongly.

Wrong with Scotland. Had we gained independence the Spain would have blocked us the whole way in fear of Catalonia getting ideas.

This is undemocratic. They should be allowed a legal referendum, let them decide.

The Spanish government said they would not veto Scotland re-entering the EU of the independence was achieved within a legal framework.

 

[ClosingADoor]

https://twitter.com/lamarea_com/status/914409485455777793

For non-spanish speakers: "rubber round hits demonstrator on the face. police was pointing upward, not downward"

That is how rubber bullets are meant to be used.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet

It's not shooting to kill but still shooting at people.

Thanks, didn't know that. And seems some people got directly hit then, which is fucked up. They need to tell the police to restrain on this stuff. It is not doing any good for the Spanish government also.

 

[aygomyownroad]

Please see my edit to the post as there was a 't' missing on the "thought", which makes it then sound as if I blame you for me reading your post wrongly.




The Spanish government said they would not veto Scotland re-entering the EU of the independence was achieved within a legal framework.

Yes your right sorry, I was thinking of the quick entry that was banded about at the time.

 

[Onyar]

I have to add that the majority of the voting points has been raided or closed, some of them had hided the urns and the voting could be resumed.
I could vote because i live is a outside neighbourhood with few people, but there had been a lot of incidences at the city center.

 

[Kain]

Can I ask any Catalonian posters here, what was the general consensus for the vote before all of this?

Was it widely talked about from people wanting to stay in Spain? Was there any fear from expressing your views in public?

Has the reaction by the Spanish government changed any views from voters?

The consensus is that a legal vote in agreement with the spanish gov would've resulted in all probability on a close NO (and with some additional rules like 70% of participation or something). Now a legal vote would result on a huge YES. The spanish gov are hacks, they are the Tabatas of governments. It's a disgrace.

 

[aygomyownroad]

 

[Lagunamov]

The consensus is that a legal vote in agreement with the spanish gov would've resulted in all probability on a close NO (and with some additional rules like 70% of participation or something). Now a legal vote would result on a huge YES. The spanish gov are hacks, they are the Tabatas of governments. It's a disgrace.

I think even now the NO in a legal referendum would be bigger than the yes, but yes, the yes is getting higher every day thanks to the PP.

 

[Tiamant]

Can I ask any Catalonian posters here, what was the general consensus for the vote before all of this?

Was it widely talked about from people wanting to stay in Spain? Was there any fear from expressing your views in public?

Has the reaction by the Spanish government changed any views from voters?

On this vote the YES will win by a supermajority I believe. But only because not all the NO's are going to going to vote since this is considered illegal. These last week's tour de force of the Spanish government have changed how the referendum was presented though. You could hear lots of people speaking how they decided to change from NO to YES as an act of protest against Spanish censorship.

People don't want to stay in PP, which is sadly Spain right now. Of course Catalan people don't hate Spaniards (nor the other way around I like to believe) but they are tired of being constantly treated like shit. Of course, the other side sees it as Catalans playing the victim role.

There wasn't any fear to show your views. In Barcelona you can find plenty of balconies with Esteladas (pro-independence flag) and some Spanish flags sprinkled here and there. There are heated discussions among friends but nothing more than that. The picture the Spanish government pictures is wildly different though (people that can't speak Spanish, schools adoctrinating kids to hate Spain, etc.) but as an inmigrant that arrived here 10 years ago I can tell you that is a big fat lie.

So yes, the way the Spanish gov is dealing with this is definitely creating independentists every day.

edit: watching more footage of Spanish police raiding voting schools I'm convince that today marks the point of no return. There is no way people are going to forgive the violence seen today. There is not going to be independence tomorrow but Spain has lost Catalonia forever.

 

[barber]

On this vote the YES will win by a supermajority I believe. But only because not all the NO's are going to going to vote since this is considered illegal. These last week's tour de force of the Spanish government have changed how the referendum was presented though. You could hear lots of people speaking how they decided to change from NO to YES as an act of protest against Spanish censorship.

People don't want to stay in PP, which is sadly Spain right now. Of course Catalan people don't hate Spaniards (nor the other way around I like to believe) but they are tired of being constantly treated like shit. Of course, the other side sees it as Catalans playing the victim role.

There wasn't any fear to show your views. In Barcelona you can find plenty of balconies with Esteladas (pro-independence flag) and some Spanish flags sprinkled here and there. There are heated discussions among friends but nothing more than that. The picture the Spanish government pictures is wildly different though (people that can't speak Spanish, schools adoctrinating kids to hate Spain, etc.) but as an inmigrant that arrived here 10 years ago I can tell you that is a big fat lie.

So yes, the way the Spanish gov is dealing with this is definitely creating independentists every day.

Yeah, I have talked with friends that would have voted no, but last week the position changed from independence to "ffs really PP?" and hej, i would have voted yes to fuck off the PP even if i am not pro independence. This began as a game of gaining votes for both sides and PP just doesnt want to stop, fuck them.
Edit: and yeah, the new independentists and the new images to promote it they have created today will be hard if not impossible to recoup.

 

[forknknife]

The central government is playing perfectly into the hands of those Catalunian politicians. Now the central government seems like the Bad guy while those brave Catalunians are fighting for their freedom, being beaten down by Police forces.

Exactly. It's a huge PR disaster for Spain.

I live in the Netherlands and here almost nobody had any idea that Spain and Catalonia had so much beef between each other, most habe this idyllic image of Spain as a very peaceful country. Tomorrow people will learn about the mess this country really is and judge the situation by the pictures of policemen charging against bloody faced elderly. Which side will people new to this issue take?

Spain has completely and embarrassingly lost the media war and, that ridiculous statement, about how Spain is a repressive fascist estate will be seen as truth by many.

 

[Lucreto]

Spain should have let the referendum happen and just completely ignored the result.

What is going to happen is the No vote won't turn out because of the crackdown or will vote Yes out of spite. The Yes vote will be fired up and will be determined to vote.

 

[Chao]

Catalonians are not the heroes of this story, and Spanish government is not the bad guy.

Both Catalonian and Spanish government fucked up. Catalonian government for allowing an illegal referendum to happen and encouraging their people to go on the streets and take the hits while the guys in suits are comfortable at home, and Spanish government for using excessive force against regular unarmed protesters and their inability to negotiate a different outcome.

But don’t be fooled by the images on the news:
both sides fucked up and this is no braveheart

 

[Koozek]

The consensus is that a legal vote in agreement with the spanish gov would've resulted in all probability on a close NO (and with some additional rules like 70% of participation or something). Now a legal vote would result on a huge YES. The spanish gov are hacks, they are the Tabatas of governments. It's a disgrace.

Wait, what Tabata do you mean here?

 

[Orniletter]

I have to add that the majority of the voting points has been raided or closed, some of them had hided the urns and the voting could be resumed.
I could vote because i live is a outside neighbourhood with few people, but there had been a lot of incidences at the city center.

This is a dumb, unconstitutional referendum powered by idiotic nationalism and populism that won't result in anything and would spell cataclysmic economic suicide if Calexit went through.

Just stay the fuck home.

 

[Kain]

Wait, what Tabata do you mean here?

You know which one (looks at avatar) lololol

 

[jmga]

Catalonians are not the heroes of this story, and Spanish government is not the bad guy.

Both Catalonian and Spanish government fucked up. Catalonian government for allowing an illegal referendum to happen and encouraging their people to go on the streets and take the hits while the guys in suits are comfortable at home, and Spanish government for using excessive force against regular unarmed protesters and their inability to negotiate a different outcome.

But don’t be fooled by the images on the news:
both sides fucked up and this is no braveheart

Spanish government is the bad guy today for sure, this brutal repression is purerly on their side. They are even shooting illegal projectiles.

 

[Ac30]

Spain should have let the referendum happen and just completely ignored the result.

What is going to happen is the No vote won't turn out because of the crackdown or will vote Yes out of spite. The Yes vote will be fired up and will be determined to vote.

Yup, that would've been the correct response. Rajoy's been a moron.

 

[Onyar]

This is a dumb, unconstitutional referendum powered by idiotic nationalism and populism that won't result in anything and would spell cataclysmic economic suicide if Calexit went through.

Just stay the fuck home.

It used to be about the independence now its about democracy.
And it can ve unconstitutional but that doesnt mean its fair, we have to fight peacefully for the right to vote even its ilegal from a facist country.

 

[Tiamant]

Catalonians are not the heroes of this story, and Spanish government is not the bad guy.

Both Catalonian and Spanish government fucked up. Catalonian government for allowing an illegal referendum to happen and encouraging their people to go on the streets and take the hits while the guys in suits are comfortable at home, and Spanish government for using excessive force against regular unarmed protesters and their inability to negotiate a different outcome.

But don’t be fooled by the images on the news:
both sides fucked up and this is no braveheart

I was expecting the "both sides!!" argument but certainly not apology of violence against citizens. How is "you forced me to do this" a valid argument to what is happening today?

 

[Koozek]

You know which one (looks at avatar) lololol

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

When I see videos of police jumping down stairs to kick sitting protestors and dragging them up by the hair to throw them out of a school, when I see police beating protestors with batons because they started singing, when I see police fighting elderly women, then I find it hard to see a "both sides" in this. The Spanish government and police messed up and all it does is strengthen Catalan's resolve.

 

[Chao]

Spanish government is the bad guy today for sure, this brutal repression is purerly on their side. They are even shooting illegal projectiles.

Yeah, I know. Who are the guys who insisted on having an illegal referendum after being warned this was going to happen instead of negotiating a solution tho?

Dumbasses on both sides.

 

[psychowave]

Fucking shameful display from the Spanish government. I think splitting is a bad idea and Catalonian politicians have relied on lies and half truths to sell it to the people but honestly I hope they manage to do it anyway because no one deserves this.

Spoiler

once this is all over pls accept me catalonian brothers and sisters i wanna run the fuck away from PP too

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I was expecting the "both sides!!" argument but certainly not apology of violence against citizens. How is "you forced me to do this" a valid argument to what is happening today?

The violence against citizens is undoubtedly wrong but I have to question the intent and motivations behind the Catalonian government for allowing a vote to go ahead that was guaranteed to cause a strong reaction by the Spanish.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Yeah, I know. Who are the guys who insisted on having an illegal referendum after being warned this was going to happen instead of negotiating a solution tho?

Dumbasses on both sides.

Yes, I can certainly see how writing on a piece of paper justifies violence against innocent people.

 

[Chao]

I was expecting the "both sides!!" argument but certainly not apology of violence against citizens. How is "you forced me to do this" a valid argument to what is happening today?

I’m not justifying the violence, how could I. I’m just saying both parties did a very poor job, which resulted on this.

 

[Tiamant]

The violence against citizens is undoubtedly wrong but I have to question the intent and motivations behind the Catalonian government for allowing a vote to go ahead that was guaranteed to cause a strong reaction by the Spanish.

This is borderline victim blaming. And by victim I'm not referring the Catalan government.

Why is there a violent reaction to a pacific vote (illegal or not) in the first place!

I'm not justifying the violence, how could I. I'm just saying both parties did a very poor job, which resulted on this.

I'm sorry but by using the "both sides" card you are picturing an even field where casting a vote is the same as beating people. You can think people were manipulated to go vote but how you say it sounds dangerously close to a justification.

 

[Kain]

Yeah, it's crazy how somebody can view violence as a reasonable response to put papers in urns. Because that's what it is, this ref has no validity right now.

 

[Walshicus]

The violence against citizens is undoubtedly wrong but I have to question the intent and motivations behind the Catalonian government for allowing a vote to go ahead that was guaranteed to cause a strong reaction by the Spanish.

Apply that logic to any other relationship. I mean that's some battered wife shit right there...

 

[jmga]

Yeah, I know. Who are the guys who insisted on having an illegal referendum after being warned this was going to happen instead of negotiating a solution tho?

Dumbasses on both sides.

The use of violence must be proportional, you cannot kill a kid for stealing a candy.

 

[Maledict]

Wrong with Scotland. Had we gained independence the Spain would have blocked us the whole way in fear of Catalonia getting ideas.

This is undemocratic. They should be allowed a legal referendum, let them decide.

This isn’t true. Spain even said it wasn’t true and they wouldn’t.

Spain would block any unilateral Declaration of Independence, for obvious reasons. But a legally agreed separation where both parties are okay with the result is totally different.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

This is borderline victim blaming. And by victim I'm not referring the Catalan government.

Why is there a violent reaction to a pacific vote (illegal or not) in the first place!

I care for the people. But revolutionaries, as in the people who lead movements, have done this and worse before. In an ideal world it'd be nice to think this wasn't the case, but we live in a world where Trump is in power.

As for why there is a violent reaction: You're 40 years out of a nationalist dictatorial regime. People who lived it still remember it.

 

[Lagamorph]

Hmmmm not a lie to say it's possible EU membership could be retained or applied for in a quick rejoining. It was all very much a special circumstance, who knows how it would have played out, it still seems unlikely Scotland would have been left out in the cold for very long, being a country wanting to be part of the EU, already complying with EU laws in totality, and with strong resources that the EU would welcome back in. Huge renewables potential for the future, a key asset in decades to come. There were overtures coming from various EU countries to state we would be looked on favourably. Would it have been instant, probably not, no, but to say it's a lie we couldn't have ultimately been in the EU as an independent nation is absolutely incorrect.


Meanwhile the Brexit referendum was sold on an absolute pack of lies and over simplification and seemingly a have your cake and eat it approach from the Brexiters, a referendum that's now sold Scotland down the river completely, shafting the majority here who wanted to remain.

The SNP claim of retaining EU Membership was absolutely a lie though, and is completely comparable to some of the lies told in the Brexit referendum, it wasn't even the only one either.
The SNP continually claimed that they could retain EU membership, despite EU rules saying otherwise. Hell, even when the EU themselves intervened and clarified that they wouldn't they persisted with the claim.
Similarly were the currency union claims. Despite Westminster continually saying that there would absolutely not be a formal currency union in the event of Scottish Indepdendence, the SNP continued to insist that there would be. It stank of the have your cake and eat it claims that were later seen in the EU referendum.
"We will retain EU membership, we will have a formal currency union, we will only take this much of the national debt" etc etc. To say nothing of the economic plans, or almost complete lack thereof (The oil will pay for it).

Nobody was saying that Scotland wouldn't be able to re-join the EU eventually, but the SNP claims were not of re-joining, but of retaining the existing membership and that there would never be a period where Scotland was outside of the EU. That was a lie and they knew it at the time of saying it.

 

[jakonovski]

Standing against government threats of violence (and the consequent fulfilment of those threats) is always commendable in my books. A state needs to learn that it gains nothing from attacking its own citizens.

 

[Par Score]

Recent events call for a new thread with a better title.

I'm not justifying the violence, how could I. I'm just saying both parties did a very poor job, which resulted on this.

One side was using a peaceful democratic process to attempt to enact change.

The other side sent in riot police to beat up children and grannies.

There is no comparison. Bleating about "Both Sides" is attempting to do nothing other than justify this state violence.

As for why there is a violent reaction: You're 40 years out of a nationalist dictatorial regime. People who lived it still remember it.

The "violent reaction" is being perpetrated by the successors to that fascist regime, not the ones trying to break away from it.

The acorn doesn't fall far from the tree.