Relaxed Muscle
Member
What is irresponsible is forcing a nation to forcefully be part of a country if they don't want to.
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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What is irresponsible is forcing a nation to forcefully be part of a country if they don't want to.
KonradLaw
Member
France because of Basque separatists probably.
You mean Sardinian seperatists.
jakonovski
Member
As another outsider, seems to me this is years of incompetent governance causing affected citizens to revolt. This unrest will not be constructive, but hopefully someone powerful learns a lesson. Which is admittedly a small hope, because one of the reasons people seek power is so that they don't have to listen to others.
France-Corsica and Italiy -South Tyrol
Plus all the shit can that would be that.
A referendum should be done and the constitution changed to a more federal approach, but we had two chances of changing government not that long ago and we fucked up big time.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Come on, we are acting like if the EU is the most democratic and political government in the world. We know how they pressure to get the yes in things that they are interested on and how can change the opinion of a country with a few minutes of speaking.
ClosingADoor
Member
Its also irresponsible to just declare independence with a one off referendum when you hate the current government for a few years.
Again, why would this be in the interest of the EU?
And now you talk about bullying a country into accepting things they don't want. That's pretty ironic in this discussion, because that is exactly what people are accusing Spain of doing with Catalonia.
KonradLaw
Member
Those are italy. Ideally Basque separatist would like to create country from provinces taken from both Spain and France.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Ups. Broken image.
LMAO, that's why the nickname was so familiar to me.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
This is beyond now the current goverment.
https://twitter.com/LuzSanchis/status/914421795817705472
https://twitter.com/gacavi2/status/914413734138990592
mocolostrocolos
Member
Good laughs we had.
His Majesty
Banned
The Spanish government has made it abundantly clear to Catalonia over the years that they are not interested in talking at all about increasing its autonomy or even holding a referendum. Meanwhile support for a referendum and independence have increased significantly. What is Catalonia supposed to do? Sorry guys, there's nothing we can do?
This referendum shows the Spanish government and Europe that Catalonia means what they are saying. Even if it fails it's a clear signal to the world that something needs to be done to get out of this impasse.
Yes of course. But you're painting it as a laughably simple solution. As others have pointed out other countries have their own internal issues to deal with, and you're ignoring the fact that Spain has its own influence.
lol you bastard lolololol
ClosingADoor
Member
How is this beyond the current government when it is that government that sent in the police?
I am not saying Madrid didn't make a mess of things. But I don't see this referendum doing any good for Catalonia.
Im not telling what they should do, Im just saying the things that I observed. Im not independentist, but I agree with the right to vote. The ilegal argument cannot be used in a country where the biggest part of the poblation chose a political party that it has been exposed by a court that they steal a lot of money and they do a lot of ilegal practices.
EU would be interested because they need it, and they will even need it more if the brexit things works in a positive way to uk.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Man, I've revisited the thread the moment I read his nickname.
It's still classic 11 years later.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
What I'm saying a change of goverment won't change that now. Is too late, people here won't forget this day.
Most people outside of catalonia is supporting this, our badly done transition and 78's constitution can't hold this any longer.
jakonovski
Member
He's clearly local and the police are rather brutally beating up local citizens. Give him some slack.
Just like they would never let the UK walk away without a deal? Because that seems more likely by the day.
Plus there are no good ways to convince Spain not to veto.
These are the same nonsense arguments brexiteers employ when they say german car makers will pressure Merkel and the EU into giving them a good deal.
They have no base in reality.
This is reads like copy paste from the brexit thread. "The EU needs us so they'll give us a good deal"
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I don't know why any of this is much of a surprise given Spain was ruled by a nationalist dictatorial regime a little over 40 years ago. That stuff is still within living memory.
I've heard TV3 repeating more than once that most of the videos they are showing today are from international outlets, not theirs.
"It's not like police are charging against the voters" And here I am right now I'm watching the footage of police charging against protesters on the streets of Cappont (Lleida)
The worst? The moral gimnastics of people claiming that they started the violence first by attending to an illegal vote.
"It's not like police are charging against the voters" And here I am right now I'm watching the footage of police charging against protesters on the streets of Cappont (Lleida)
The worst? The moral gimnastics of people claiming that they started the violence first by attending to an illegal vote.
Yes, no base in reality. The EU never pressure in its own beneficy, never. Im not gonna paste every case, anyone with google can check it.
Hmmmm not a lie to say its possible EU membership could be retained or applied for in a quick rejoining. It was all very much a special circumstance, who knows how it would have played out, it still seems unlikely Scotland would have been left out in the cold for very long, being a country wanting to be part of the EU, already complying with EU laws in totality, and with strong resources that the EU would welcome back in. Huge renewables potential for the future, a key asset in decades to come. There were overtures coming from various EU countries to state we would be looked on favourably. Would it have been instant, probably not, no, but to say its a lie we couldnt have ultimately been in the EU as an independent nation is absolutely incorrect.
Meanwhile the Brexit referendum was sold on an absolute pack of lies and over simplification and seemingly a have your cake and eat it approach from the Brexiters, a referendum thats now sold Scotland down the river completely, shafting the majority here who wanted to remain.
What exactly is the beneficy of catalonian independence for the EU?
Causing it's 4th largest member economic damage and social upheaval?
Strengthening independence movements all over europe?
Acidote
Member
I realise that for most people there considerations of a practical nature are not relevant, you simply don't feel Spanish anymore and that's that, but you should still make your mind up about this with the right information and a proper grip on reality. The quoted above is blatantly false. And when it comes to other states, not many have any interest on recognising an independent Catalonia that supposedly became so unilaterally. It's purely a matter of realpolitik.
The EU has always been flexible towards states wanting to participate and already meeting the criteria.
And yeah, it's shocking to see pictures like that as the result of a supposedly democratic state's actions on what it asserts are it's own citizens. Not sure how much lower my opinion of the Spanish state can go.
And yeah, it's shocking to see pictures like that as the result of a supposedly democratic state's actions on what it asserts are it's own citizens. Not sure how much lower my opinion of the Spanish state can go.
If Catalonia declares independence, then they are out of the EU. Spain is not going to accept them as an EU or EEA member state.
The Scotland/Brexit situation was entirely different. None of the other EU member states would have any animosity against Scotland being part of the EU.
But reading some comments in here (the EU has always been flexible, it won't be that bad) just goes on to show how many people just don't know how the EU actually works and how decisions are made.
The Scotland/Brexit situation was entirely different. None of the other EU member states would have any animosity against Scotland being part of the EU.
But reading some comments in here (the EU has always been flexible, it won't be that bad) just goes on to show how many people just don't know how the EU actually works and how decisions are made.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Probably not? Absolutely not. This was made clear by the EU.
The negotiations to split from the UK would have to be finalised first, which would have taken years, and then when they were an independent state they could apply for EU membership.
ClosingADoor
Member
What I worry about is the reasons that support has gone up. Because we have seen an economic mess around the EU for a while, with Spain being hit particularity hard. And a populist movement promising independence and how everything will be better then will not fix that. A decision like this can not be made with a single referendum. At least, that is my opinion about these things. If it is about sending a signal, maybe that works, but I'm not holding out hope for that.
The EU does not need more countries becoming instable and breaking off. That is against their interest, certainly after Brexit.
That we agree on, the Spanish government made it a ton worse then it would have been otherwise.
I know, but I see the same arguments and sentiment that have been shown in populist movements around the globe lately, and it is just making things worse. Hope they can get through today and then work out a decent solution.
Even if they were interested in that - which they aren't - they can only do so when every member state agrees. No state is going to agree to let in a country that just split off, since they all have their own movements that will use the same argument then to reinforce their independence arguments.
Any state that wants to join the EU has to go through article 49 whether it's scotland or catalonia or any other state.
I mean we talk about deluded brexiteers, but this seems no less deluded than those fools.
At this point I think people just want to get rid of PP at all costs more than an independent utopia. It's frustrating to see how after every corruption scandal they keep winning elections and do not give a shit about any other one that their base.
Well Spain might have, just purely as question of realpolitik.
Why would they have to? What would be the benefit for them?
Wow, a picture with no context, you've convinced me.
Fuck you Spain.
We don't let children drink bleach but we let them get hurt in smaller ways, that is an effective way to teach them a lesson. My parents let me touch an electric fence for example, I didn't do it a second time.
You couldn't be more wrong! If Catalunya becomes independent they'll be out of the EU, period! And it's not up to the EU as an organization to let them back in, every single member country can veto every new member and Spain will veto Catalunya (and some other countries will veto them too to discourage independence movements in their own countries).
A non EU territory between France and Spain is a not a real issue, we've had a non EU territotry between Germany, France and Italy since the beginning, you can get around that, literally!
And a harbor that's the main gate to the mediterranean sea? Give me a break, there are harbors everywhere, trade will simply move, Vallencia and Marseille for example. You don't need Barcelona to get into or out of the EU.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Why would they? They've chosen the worst possible option in this referendum. What makes you think they wouldn't veto (even if they say they wouldn't) Scotland's entry into the EU just to further demoralise the people in Catalonia?
Spain may not veto an independent Catalonia? Lmao. And that is assuming they actually manage to split away.
I have no horse in this race even though I am Spanish. I understand why they are doing this, but they certainly are not doing it with the right expectations.
Precisely because of what people are doing in this thread. As it stands people seem to think that joining the EU is about filling in a questionnaire and then they're a member of the club.
Spain would in no way want to further encourage that impression.
I was talking about them blocking Scotland.
Catalan independence has been a thing longer than Putin's been alive. not everything is Russia.
Police shooting voters with plastic rounds (forbidden in Catalonia since 2014)
https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632
I can't wait for the victim blaming spin.
https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632
I can't wait for the victim blaming spin.
Doesn't mean that Putin isn't happy to take any chance to foster dissension within the EU.
So you were referring to the Scotland part, not the Catalonia part? Thought you were saying Spain would have to accept Catalonia as part of the EU. Was a misunderstanding then.
And yet like with Brexit and Trump, Putin has a strong interest in the pro independence side.
Even providing support.
http://www.politico.eu/article/russia-catalonia-referendum-fake-news-misinformation/
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