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[Machina]

And all this shit wouldn't happen if they were allowed a legal vote

Exactly.

 

[psychowave]

Oh, good old democracy, take that Spanish people and Constitution!!!!!11!!

I don't know why people keep pointing this shit out. We all know the referendum is a farce. Maybe it would have been well regulated if the Spanish government had allowed for it.

 

[tzare]

I could vote after almost 2 hours wait, i was lucky that no incidents happened, but can't say the same for other voting places just hundreds of meters away.

I think this is a no return point no matter how the day ends.
Hopefully it not only helps Catalonia but also Spain in the future.

It also doesn't bode well for EU since their silence is not a good sign imo

 

[Walshicus]

Ah. When the evidence proves you wrong, ignore the evidence!

Channeling your inner Donald?

The Spanish regime *just* today launched paramilitary attacks against a democratic vote that they both refuse to support or even discuss a diplomatic option.

So yes, it's fucking outdated.

 

[Tempus fugit]

Ah. When the evidence proves you wrong, ignore the evidence!

Channeling your inner Donald?

SAD!

 

[Wafflecakes]

The Spanish regime *just* today launched paramilitary attacks against a democratic vote that they both refuse to support or even discuss a diplomatic option.

So yes, it's fucking outdated.

It isn't democratic when the voters of the nation did not authorize it. Period.

It may be RIGHT to let the vote happen, but that isn't nearly enough to make it democratic.

 

[Machina]

Just looked up how Catalonia became apart of Spain in the first place. Royal power grabs from the Middle Ages. Swell.

 

[Wafflecakes]

So if a military junta took over Brazil in 2017, you would post a map of 2016 to show it's a democracy?

So you are now claiming that enforcing the laws of a country is the equivalent of a military government takeover?

Ok.

 

[Valhelm]

This is wrong, Spanish are beating Catalonians, because of their unionist repressive ideas that survived during our fascist era. And well, since basically forever.

What is fascism but the use of force to support the interests of the national bourgeoisie over everybody else?

Every fascist movement seeks to protect the status of the ruling economic class against its perceived enemies, ranging from domestic anticapitalists to international competition to poor souls unlucky enough to be born into the wrong religion or ethnic group.

The entire appeal of Francoism was that only military rule could protect the hierarchies of Spanish society from the anarchists and communists who rightfully sought to destroy them.

 

[pswii60]

It isn't democratic when the voters of the nation did not authorize it. Period.

It may be RIGHT to let the vote happen, but that isn't nearly enough to make it democratic.

So the Scottish independence referendum wasn't democratic in your view?

 

[vonStirlitz]

Right, which is why I think this current crisis in Catalonia could really go two ways.

1. Catalan becomes independent, and radical anarchist and communist trends within their politics create the most radical state in Western Europe. Spaniards, no longer benefiting from stolen Catalonian wealth, become more critical of capitalism and many demand a more humane alternative.
2. Catalan becomes independent, and snooty chauvinists like Jordi Pujol determine the course of the nation. Left-wing groups in Catalonia lose their thunder. Meanwhile, Spaniards become more angry and revanchist and elect an authoritarian right-wing government which spends decades threatening to reconquer its lost eastern provinces.

Because we live in a hellworld, the latter may be a more likely outcome than the former. Best we can do as outside observers is to fight back against reactionary ways of viewing the Catalonian situation and supporting the working people of Catalonia in their struggles against their oppressors at home and in Madrid.



I think Spain's behaving a lot worse than Venezuela, because the Spanish opposition isn't burning down hospitals or murdering their opponents!

I think it goes a third way. Spanish Govt and EU crackdown. No change. Youth get radicalised. ETA style situation. Power structures in Madrid, Brussels and Berlin strengthened. Public get fucked over.

Always been this way.

Spanish Civil War itself is emblematic for when a brief moment of communitarianism gets snuffed out by power blocks from the left and right.

 

[Tempus fugit]

So if a military junta took over Brazil in 2017, you would post a map of 2016 to show it's a democracy?

The thing is no country or organization in the world thinks that this... thing is somehow legal, comparing the enforcement of a constitution with a military uprsinig is quite ridiculous.

Fun fact, for things such as appointing the regional TV staff the Catalan regional Parliament needs 2 thirds of positive votes, for a binding referendum against the Spanish Constitution and the Estatut (the general catalan law) only a simple majority.

Sounds reasonable

 

[KingSnake]

So the Scottish independence referendum wasn't democratic in your view?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Agreement_(2012)

 

[Wafflecakes]

So the Scottish independence referendum wasn't democratic in your view?

The elected government approved that referendum, thus it was democratic.

 

[Iksenpets]

The government's reaction to all of this just seems so counterproductive. Like, you can look at other examples of secessionist movements like Quebec and Scotland, and it seems like governments kept them pretty well in line and avoided secession by just being generally respectful and offering concessions. And really, of the vote is so illegal, why not just ignore it? If they vote against it, then no harm done. If they vote to secede, well, whatever, the vote was illegal and we're not recognizing it. Way easier than trying to violently stop it from happening.

 

[Tempus fugit]

So the Scottish independence referendum wasn't democratic in your view?

It was authorized since there's no constitutional law that doesn't allow it, basically because the UK doesn't have a constitution.

 

[Wafflecakes]

The government's reaction to all of this just seems so counterproductive. Like, you can look at other examples of secessionist movements like Quebec and Scotland, and it seems like governments kept them pretty well in line and avoided secession by just being generally respectful and offering concessions. And really, of the vote is so illegal, why not just ignore it? If they vote against it, then no harm done. If they vote to secede, well, whatever, the vote was illegal and we're not recognizing it. Way easier than trying to violently stop it from happening.

Yeah, the Spanish government is managing this REALLY badly.

They would have been better off just authorizing a vote, setting the threshold at say.... 60%, and then requiring a certain level of voter turnout to legitimize the vote.

 

[Walshicus]

It isn't democratic when the voters of the nation did not authorize it. Period.

It may be RIGHT to let the vote happen, but that isn't nearly enough to make it democratic.

The elected representatives of the Catalan nation *clearly* authorised it? The fucking Spanish nation has nothing to do with whether they want to stay or not, and the singular moral obligation of any unionist from their side is to conduct themselves with civility and in a manner that proves the value of said union.

Resorting to this kind of thuggery is abhorrent, but clearly not surprising from the Spanish regime.

 

[ecosse_011172]

Yeah was thinking more here amongst my social group, we all voted remain but my younger friends, family really don't have much faith in EU, NATO and UN things like that. As for me I was just a bit annoyed at EU lack of speaking out over violence, I've pretty much calmed down but those twitter replies really surprise me given how many are non Spanish. No need for apologies my earlier statement led you to believe I was anti EU I was just angry at the silence.

I'm pro EU but also very disappointed in the lack of response, I hope they do better tomorrow.

 

[ferrasvansen]

I'm pro EU but also very disappointed in the lack of response, I hope they do better tomorrow.

Yeah fingers crossed.

 

[Wafflecakes]

The elected representatives of the Catalan *clearly* authorised it? The fucking Spanish nation has nothing to do with whether they want to stay or not, and their singular moral obligation of any unionist from their side is to conduct themselves with civility and in a manner that proves the value of said union.

Resorting to this kind of thuggery is abhorrent, but clearly not surprising from the Spanish regime.

They cannot authorize something that they have no legal authority to authorize.

 

[Tempus fugit]

The government's reaction to all of this just seems so counterproductive. Like, you can look at other examples of secessionist movements like Quebec and Scotland, and it seems like governments kept them pretty well in line and avoided secession by just being generally respectful and offering concessions. And really, of the vote is so illegal, why not just ignore it? If they vote against it, then no harm done. If they vote to secede, well, whatever, the vote was illegal and we're not recognizing it. Way easier than trying to violently stop it from happening.

Goverment should have gone with a Canada solution or simply allow them to vote in this charade, the reaction is absolutely ridiculous, but most thing that this Goverments does are.

 

[ChainedMaster]

The government's reaction to all of this just seems so counterproductive. Like, you can look at other examples of secessionist movements like Quebec and Scotland, and it seems like governments kept them pretty well in line and avoided secession by just being generally respectful and offering concessions. And really, of the vote is so illegal, why not just ignore it? If they vote against it, then no harm done. If they vote to secede, well, whatever, the vote was illegal and we're not recognizing it. Way easier than trying to violently stop it from happening.

Because the referendum is one step closer to secession. Same reason even Turkey and Iran, 2 separate countries also flipped their shit when Iraqi Kurdistan held their vote.

 

[psychowave]

After what the Spanish government has done today against its own citizens I never want to hear them fucking talk about Venezuela ever again.

 

[Ac30]

The government's reaction to all of this just seems so counterproductive. Like, you can look at other examples of secessionist movements like Quebec and Scotland, and it seems like governments kept them pretty well in line and avoided secession by just being generally respectful and offering concessions. And really, of the vote is so illegal, why not just ignore it? If they vote against it, then no harm done. If they vote to secede, well, whatever, the vote was illegal and we're not recognizing it. Way easier than trying to violently stop it from happening.

Frankly Rajoy needed to resign like 2 weeks ago. Can the Spanish parliament not hold vote of no confidence?

 

[jakonovski]

So you are now claiming that enforcing the laws of a country is the equivalent of a military government takeover?

Ok.

The thing is no country or organization in the world thinks that this... thing is somehow legal, comparing the enforcement of a constitution with a military uprsinig is quite ridiculous.

Fun fact, for things such as appointing the regional TV staff the Catalan regional Parliament needs 2 thirds of positive votes, for a binding referendum against the Spanish Constitution and the Estatut (the general catalan law) only a simple majority.

Sounds reasonable

Are you guys getting your talking points from some kind of a list or what?

Particularly incredible in the context of today's events.

 

[Walshicus]

They cannot authorize something that they have no legal authority to authorize.

That "law" is imposed, immoral and antidemocratic. It's clear as day that the government in Madrid has no moral legitimacy to legislate on behalf of Catalonia any more.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Are you guys getting your talking points from some kind of a list or what?

Particularly incredible in the context of today's events.

Neither of us is justifying the behavior of the police.

One side doing something wrong, however, does not justify bald faced lies about every other aspect of the situation.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Ah. When the evidence proves you wrong, ignore the evidence!

 

[pswii60]

The elected government approved that referendum, thus it was democratic.

Then he could have worded it better. I get that our nation voted by proxy in that the government authorised it. Although I don't believe it was in a pre-election manifesto before it was agreed.

But the point here is that Spain's government hasn't authorised this referendum, and that in itself is undemocratic.

 

[jakonovski]

Neither of us is justifying the behavior of the police.

Doesn't read like that to me.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

Frankly Rajoy needed to resign like 2 weeks ago. Can the Spanish parliament not hold vote of no confidence?

Podemos is presenting a vote of no confidence. After the events of today, I hope and think many parliamentary groups will jump onto the wagon.

 

[trembli0s]

America isn't dark orange, so hardly an accurate map

US corruption has absolutely nothing on the stuff that goes on in Spain. It's endemic in every region in Spain, regardless of party or background.

 

[StrategyFan]

Just looked up how Catalonia became apart of Spain in the first place. Royal power grabs from the Middle Ages. Swell.

100% of europe was formed this way. if you go back far enough nobody has any legitimate claim to any land except maybe iceland

 

[Tempus fugit]

Are you guys getting your talking points from some kind of a list or what?

Particularly incredible in the context of today's events.

You aren't even using arguments at this point.

 

[And_Gignac]

Oh, good old democracy, take that Spanish people and Constitution!!!!!11!!

Lol at you actually believing this is a child voting and not a parent letting their children just do the last step of the process as a symbolic gesture.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Doesn't read like that to me.

Try reading better and not projecting?

I can understand where the Spanish government is coming from, but as I said previously... I think they should have just authorized the vote but required a certain level of turnout for legitimacy.

 

[Machina]

100% of europe was formed this way. if you go back far enough nobody has any legitimate claim to any land except maybe iceland

That's why the EU exists, to sort out those differences in a civil and democratic manner, Which is why their indifference to Spain and Catalonia's differences is all the more on the nose.

 

[curi0usBystander]

Frankly Rajoy needed to resign like 2 weeks ago. Can the Spanish parliament not hold vote of no confidence?

They can, but whether enough parties want to do it remains to be seen.

 

[Tempus fugit]

Lol at you actually believing this is a child voting and not a parent letting their children just doing the last step of the process as a symbolic gesture.

There are quite a few images of people voting multiple times in different places. That was actually a satiric post.

 

[Wafflecakes]

US corruption has absolutely nothing on the stuff that goes on in Spain. It's endemic in every region in Spain, regardless of party or background.

It also tells a story about how corrupt the rest of the world is considering that Spain is still considered well above average when it comes to limiting corruption.

 

[RocknRola]

Some of the pics out there..man...

Whatever support the Spanish government was looking for from outside partners regarding this issue, with these kind of pics making the rounds, they're never gonna get it.

 

[ChainedMaster]

100% of europe was formed this way. if you go back far enough nobody has any legitimate claim to any land except maybe iceland

Yup. Virtually every country in Europe has secessionist movements. Venice in Italy, Cornwall and northern Ireland in UK. Bretons in France, Bavaria in Germany etc..

Truth is no one country in Europe is made of just one ethnicity.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The entire appeal of Francoism was that only military rule could protect the hierarchies of Spanish society from the anarchists and communists who rightfully sought to destroy them.

The appeal of Franco was two-fold, what you said and the unionism he predicated with iron hand. You're right, but you can't forget about that part of spanish fascism.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

There are quite a few images of people voting multiple times in different places. That was actually a satiric post.

 

[Valhelm]

100% of europe was formed this way. if you go back far enough nobody has any legitimate claim to any land except maybe iceland

nah iceland belongs to a handful of irish monks and the genocidal Icelander settler-colonialists must be removed by force

Spoiler

/s

 

[Coxy100]

Oh, good old democracy, take that Spanish people and Constitution!!!!!11!!

Calm down. When I voted recently (UK) I lifted my 3 year daughter up so she could post my vote in for me - it happens a lot.

 

[Ether_Snake]

So you are now claiming that enforcing the laws of a country is the equivalent of a military government takeover?

Ok.

It's not against the law for people to vote, Spain could simply not recognize it.

 

[Nekster]

It isn't democratic when the voters of the nation did not authorize it. Period.

Obviously you don't know and understand what a self-determination referendum is.

 

[bud23]

Yeah, cant say im surprised by the level of ignorance displayed in this thread

Sad

This is wrong, Spanish are beating Catalonians, because of their unionist repressive ideas that survived during our fascist era. And well, since basically forever.

Im sorry to be the one to tell you, but you have been brainwashed by the catalan goverment, just like many newspapers and social media around the world, and their aggressive and false propaganda

Cant blame you, but pls realize that the bullshit and nonsensical narrative youre spitting isnt remotely truth