GentlemanCrow
Member
Shhh, no tears, only dance now.
What a well reasoned response. Thank you...
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Doctor Who 50th Anniversary |OT| Splendid Chap, All Of Them
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What a well reasoned response. Thank you...
The 50th overlaps with The End of Time and both of them take place on the last day of the Time War. At the beginning of the 50th the War Council mentions that the High Council is in session and "they have plans of their own" to which the general replies "to hell with the High Council, their plans have already failed--Gallifrey remains in the line of fire." That refers to the Ultimate Sanction and Rassilon's failure in The End of Time. Tennant has already regenerated and stopped the Time Lords by the time we see the climax of the 50th.
That part actually fits together quite neatly.
You're assuming this will never be incorporated into the 12th Doctor's run. And it might well be.
Sure they can. It's not like the numbering in-universe actually has any significance, the numbering is just for marketing clarity.
It's the very last day of the Time War. In expanded universe material it was stated that by this point the entire fleet of Battle TARDISes were all destroyed by the Daleks. Gallifrey is under siege, the Time Lords are cornered and desperate and planning the Ultimate Sanction. That's where the war is at by this point.
The Night of the Doctor pretty clearly maintained that the Time Lords were still guilty of monstrous crimes. The Doctor wasn't thinking about that, he was thinking about the children, who were and are innocent.
That's not exactly a new aspect of the show.
The rest of your argument is subjective and has nothing to do with continuity so whatever. But you're objectively wrong about continuity.
And that I would have HATED if when they talked about the screwdriver, all three of them would turn towards the tv, and say "you see, dear watcher, up till this point, screwdrivers used the Tardis as cloud for storage, therefore even if I lose a screwdriver, the tardis will access anything that it did previously" JUST because some people did not want to play that out in their own minds.
There is no need to clarify that, we are adults. We can figure it out, if we want to.
There is no need to clarify that, we are adults. We can figure it out, if we want to.
BigWeather
Member
I may have to splurge on a few of my favorite stories, I had no idea that the restoration was so effective and extensive. Thanks for that link, Sir_Crocodile.
Jest Chillin
Member
It should be pretty obvious I think, and not need explaining. Since when 10's screwdriver is destroyed, The Tardis creates the new one for 11.
Similarly, the Doctor never says it's the screwdriver that's doing the calculations to save Gallifrey. The fact that they're using their TARDIS' made me believe that particular calculation was done by the ship itself over all those lifetimes.
GentlemanCrow
Member
I can't speak for expanded material as I'm going off what is offered in the show. But are you telling me that it sits well that Timelord society boils down to the same nuts and bolts of ours? Regardless of how many tardises are left surely they have more sophisticated forms of warfare than guns. They are such an advanced race and have created such abstract weapons as the moment, but their military looks like something out of Starship Troopers, or any other race with a military in Doctor Who. I just expect more. And if the budget can't stretch to show that they shouldn't compromise.
By not counting Hurt's doctor for no reason other than to maintain the marketing of 9th, 10th and 11th it just feels like a Skinner/Armin Tamzarian level of this never actually happened but it did scenario.
And as to locking locations in time not being a new thing I agree. It's an artifact of the older shows where the logic had some leeway to be fuzz because there hadn't been as many examples of time travel explored in film and television. There had been some but now there have been so many different shows and films that have used time travel that you can't help and compare and dissect. And the way they play with the shows time travel logic anyway you'd think they'd have gotten rid of it by now.
I agree that most of the rest of my points are subjective but your response to them implies that they are not as valid as a positive appraisal. I just wish there were more dissenting voices in the crowd. More reviewers that look at Who with the same scrutiny as any other show.
An American show with the plot issues, acting quality and writing of Who for example wouldn't get past the pilot phase. Who seems to get a free pass.
I love the concept of Doctor Who. I truly do. I feel there is so much wasted potential there.
Also I wasn't saying that the screwdriver cloud thing was better idea. I was making a point that they say that they same device with different shells when in fact they are not.
By not counting Hurt's doctor for no reason other than to maintain the marketing of 9th, 10th and 11th it just feels like a Skinner/Armin Tamzarian level of this never actually happened but it did scenario.
And as to locking locations in time not being a new thing I agree. It's an artifact of the older shows where the logic had some leeway to be fuzz because there hadn't been as many examples of time travel explored in film and television. There had been some but now there have been so many different shows and films that have used time travel that you can't help and compare and dissect. And the way they play with the shows time travel logic anyway you'd think they'd have gotten rid of it by now.
I agree that most of the rest of my points are subjective but your response to them implies that they are not as valid as a positive appraisal. I just wish there were more dissenting voices in the crowd. More reviewers that look at Who with the same scrutiny as any other show.
An American show with the plot issues, acting quality and writing of Who for example wouldn't get past the pilot phase. Who seems to get a free pass.
I love the concept of Doctor Who. I truly do. I feel there is so much wasted potential there.
Also I wasn't saying that the screwdriver cloud thing was better idea. I was making a point that they say that they same device with different shells when in fact they are not.
yes, I'm sure JOHN HURT playing THE DOCTOR in DOCTOR WHO'S 50TH ANNIVERSARY will be quickly forgotten and swept under the rug by all.
If you don't like the show, you don't like the show, so what? No use in trying to change your mind about - by your own admission - subjective complaints, which is probably why (not to put words in his mouth) Fiktion was just correcting the things in your post that weren't accurate.
John Hurt will never be a numbered Doctor because, well... he's not. He was never the current Doctor or the lead of the show. His Doctor was created retroactively and shoved into an open gap in the story. Plus it wouldn't even make sense to call him the 9th Doctor because that's not how numbers work. Hartnell is the first Doctor because he was the first actor to play the character, Troughton the second and so on. If any thing Hurt would be the 12th and that really doesn't work either because, again, he was never THE Doctor so calling him something else fits.
BigWeather
Member
To me Doctor Who is like baseball. Its long history, traditions, and quirks are a big part of the charm and what make it unique and special. I'm VERY glad that they haven't ejected the past with the new series -- that'd be tantamount to cutting out its heart. I'm glad it isn't trying to occupy the same space as many other shows.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
No problem, just bear in mind I have never seen the streamed content, and that there are limits to what the RT were able to do depending on the viability of the original film.
I'd say just buy one to compare to begin with if I were you.
That said, the dvd's have other value as well, a lot of them have documentaries of the making of the serial, which are generally very good, as well as other content - commentaries, production subtitles, etc. Standouts are Day of the Dalek which has an alternate version of the serial with new special effects(which really adds to the story), and Curse of Fenric which has an alternate directors cut with extra footage which helpss the serial make more sense.
They didn't create them, their ancestors did. As we can see from the 4th doctor stories onwards, the timelords are a race in stagnation or decline, reliant on the matrix and helpless when it failed. They have used standard guns and other such items ever since.
All the abstract weaponry comes from the time of omega, which is probably why the time lords had to bring back rassilon, whose idea to end the war was the ultimate sanction, another abstract weapon. Day of the Doctor in this sense fits in perfectly with both all classic era portrayals of the time lords save The War Games(which is probably much earlier in their history), and the RTD era stuff.
Ooooh, that's pretty awesome, always bugged me a bit, but that sounds pretty good.
Jest Chillin
Member
It seems to me that Timelords choose names other than their given names (whether thats all or just some i dont know). Judging by The Master and The Doctor, the chosen names reflect their goals and beliefs. The Doctor uses his title in all incarnations where he helps others and tries to spare life. Hurts incarnation was made specifically to wage war. To kill as much as necessary. The only reason we use the word "Doctor" is for the sake of clarity. He's the same being but was created with an entirely different goal. This is why he doesn't change the numbers.
The numbering doesn't change for the same reason it wouldn't if they stuck Daniel Day Lewis or something between Troughton and Pertwee. It wouldn't count because he wasn't actually there at the time. Troughton got the role and then Pertwee did which makes him the 3rd. That's a fact and it's something that can never be changed. Same thing applies with McGann to Eccleston. Paul McGann was the Doctor and then it was Christopher Eccleston. That too is a fact and it also can't be changed. John Hurt was great but he'll always be somewhere apart from all the real Doctors.
I was under the impression that the whole sonic screwdriver thing was there for foreshadowing of that event, the "same software, different case" line also can relate to the Doctor himself. He was able to plant the idea in his memory and therefore use his whe timeline to make the calculations over hundreds of years.
Excuse me?
Jest Chillin
Member
The Doctors being same software, different case led to the idea about the door, which led to the idea to save Gallifrey, yes. But I don't think he planted the idea in his memory. I believe they traveled back and told all the Doctors the plan and started the calculations on the Tardis with the first doctor. All of them being there at the same time seemed to be just to amplify the technique. The Doctor is a genius but I'm not sure he could calculate the numbers in his head, in the background of his life.
Not saying he did it in the background of his mind 24/7 for hundreds of years lol. Of course he used outside help, I'm just saying that the "Same software, different case" line is an obvious allusion to the Doctor himself that a lot of people missed.
The 13 Doctors all being there at the same time is the part that makes the least sense in the episode anyway. The only reason it happened is because it's the 50th and they needed to write something like that in for fans.
I suppose the Moment could have allowed them to contact the First somehow, but it's not really explained at all.
Wait, I just realized. So I haven't watched The End of Time in awhile so, forgive me if I'm asking a totally stupid question, but does the Tennant's big walkabout journey occur before the End of Time? If so, does that mean the Tennant that ends the Time War hasn't even encountered the Rassilon-Master shit yet?
Yep. Steven Moffat's first Doctor Who story. If you want more of Richard E. Grant's Doctor there is also Scream of the Shalka written by Paul Cornell.
Jest Chillin
Member
Ah I see. Well yes and no? I don't know how many may have missed it. I caught it when The Moment implied it to the War Doctor giving him the initial idea for the door. I guess I just figured everyone else did too. lol
You're right on both accounts here. I'm just explaining it away with the logic that makes the most sense to me. /shrug
Yes.
Yeah, the walkabout that includes Day of the Doctor occurs between Waters of Mars and End of Time.
So Tenth helps War and Eleventh save Gallifrey, then loses those memories, encounters the Master and Rassilon in EoT, and then sends them back into the Time War/Gallifrey where - moments later - they're saved by all 13 Doctors.
Just to blow your mind further Scream of the Shalka co-stars Derek Jacobi as the Master who would later go on to play the role opposite David Tennant in Utopia, and David Tennant himself is in it who we all know eventually became the 10th Doctor.
Actually his first story was called "Continuity Errors" in a Doctor Who short story collection by Virgin Publishing, which is funny because I am pretty sure he most of the Doctor Who books from them.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I think Jacobi would come back to Who. God knows the sitcom he was in with McKellen was awful.
That incarnation of the Master started off as a young boy at the end of the universe and we saw him regenerate shortly after recovering his memories, there's very little room there to bring him back. It'd be better to just get Simms to shoot a regeneration scene. Someone who could pull off being the new Lord President of Gallifrey.
Future Foundation
Member
If anyone's interested in trying out some Eighth Doctor audio drama, BBC Radio 4 is broadcasting some of the more popular stories. Currently, they're doing To The Death.
That... isn't really a great jumping-in point, is it?
Future Foundation
Member
Well, to be fair, I only just found out about it today. The tweet that mentioned it was posted on the 29th, and they've been doing some since then. For example, the last one was Lucie Miller.
I'm sorry, but at this point I feel the problem is with you and not everyone else. While the classic series had some popularity in America (especially Tom Baker) it was never that big of a thing, especially when the show came back. How the hell could something as bad as you say it is gain such a following with a great deal of positive reception in the US with little nostalgia to back it up.
I'm fine with anyone not liking the show, but you come off as almost insulting to others with remarks like this. Saying their blind to quality or what not.
You clearly don't watch enough American TV.
Something just occurred to me about Matt's regeneration.
According to the spoilers,
I don't know how I feel about that. I think I would prefer him being just like we've always known him.
According to the spoilers,
he looks really old by the time he dies. We're not going to see Matt's regular young face morph into Capaldi, we're going to see him all made up to be old, maybe with a fake beard.
Future Foundation
Member
I've heard nice things about Dark Horizons and The Silent Stars Go By.
You could try the 50th Anniversary Collection, one full story for all eleven Doctors.
Oh wow I didn't even think about that. Yeah, I wonder how that will work. Or maybe
by visually aged they just mean he'll grow a beard, but maybe shave it by the time he regenerates? Idk.
Yup. I also think that a lot of people that talk about apparent conflicts with "The End of Time" actually haven't seen that episode in a while (I watched in a couple days ago).
For one, the High Council specifically mentions that the Doctor is in possession of the Moment and could use it at any time. That's why they're in such a hurry to escape the time-lock, because they know what's coming. That plan fails, and they burn with everyone else (apparently).
There's actually no conflict at all between the two episodes... they're not actually the same events as everyone seems to assume.
dreamcastmaster
Banned
That was fast, Chinese pirated version on sale in under a week. No extras on the disc.
The real deal comes out on Bluray and DVD with extras in the UK today anyway, here in Australia on the 4th. Not sure about the US release date.
That was fast, Chinese pirated version on sale in under a week. No extras on the disc.
Edit: Dec 10th in the States according to Amazon.
Lynd7
Member
Just a heads up, people over at GB are reporting the UK Blu Ray is slowed down to 24p, it's causing some audio problems etc.
Also, Tizoc, classic Who will never be better than DVD quality. Although, Spearhead From Space received a Blu release as it was the only story completely shot on film.
Also, Tizoc, classic Who will never be better than DVD quality. Although, Spearhead From Space received a Blu release as it was the only story completely shot on film.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Whenever the beeb get round to releasing the rest on blu-ray, it will look a bit better, just because of the reduction of compression in blu ray(unless they just use the extra space to pack on more episodes....which isn't entirely unlikely come to think of it
Tizzy, whatever the most recent issuing of a dvd for a serial that exists is the best, if you see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_DVD_and_Blu-ray_releases
You will see quite a few "Special Edition's", and "available on revisitation set x". Special Editions & revisitations are when the restoration team took a second go at restoring a serial with the latest technology, so you will want those when available.
I actually agree here. The Time War was much more interesting when you just heard these abstract things ('the Dalek Emperor took control of the Cruciform', 'the jaws of the Nightmare Child')there was just no way they could do justice to the mythology. Even in The End of Time, the Time Lords' plan was more ridiculous. They were going to destroy the universe and ascend as non-corporeal beings. But then in The Day of the Doctor they're suddenly just fighting in a war of attrition using laser guns? It's just a bit naff.
I think this is probably true, to some extent. Who is a lot more inconsistent than a lot of American shows. But I think the show is carried because when Who is good, it's great, and even when the scripts are a bit crap, they've had such a run of success with picking their lead actors that Tennant and Smith were still entertaining enough to watch.
paradox121
Member
To be fair it was the last day of the Time War. The Daleks had destroyed everyone else and no doubt the big battles happened in completely different galaxies. They were just heading to Gallifrey to pick off the last few who remained, who probably had to resort to 'archaic' laser gun things in order to defend themselves. And from an out-of-universe perspective shooty laser guns are an easy way to express a war, particularly to such a wide audience, some of whom probably had no clue what the Time War was.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Again, pretty sure this was all supposed to be ancient tech, like the hand of omega & the moment. That's why they had to bring back Rassilon in the first place. Time Lords have been stagnant for a looooooong time, the last episode we saw them look competant was also their first episode - the war games.
The Time Lords have always been a bit crap in a stand-up fight. For instance, being nearly omnipotent in "the War Games" isn't enough to keep the War Lord's goons from gunning down a team of nameless TARDIS technicians. Or in "the Invasion of Time" where a bunch of Sontarans overpowers Gallifrey's sad security forces once the outer defenses are down.
That's just the way the Time Lords have always been.
It still doesn't make sense. The Time Lords had hand-held weapons that could erase targets from space and time. The engines of their starships are powered by the energy provided from a captured black hole. While the Doctor was fiddling with the Moment the rest of the time lords hatched a plan to destroy the universe itself.
Meanwhile, on the front lines, all they have are piddly little laser guns? Just doesn't add up. It's like suggesting that if China launched an invasion of the USA, they'd defend themselves with flintlock rifles.
They're obviously supposed to be a stagnant/declining Empire, that's precisely why the Daleks are even able to fight them to a stalemate in the first place.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Some of very good, some are very bad. The more recent books (as in those written since the show came back in 2005) tend to be geared more towards a younger audience, but there are still some books that shine above the rest. I would recommend Lance Parkin's The Eyeless (a 10th Doctor novel set post-Journey's End) as a great novel amongst the more recent ones.
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