Dragon's Crown Reviews

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Vire said:
If you can't tell the difference between this:

Dragon Crown

and this:

"Venus Asleep" - Giorgione

I don't know what to tell you.

One treats the female with an ounce of respect and the other doesn't

Anyway, if that appeals to you - that's fine. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the Polygon reviewer disagreed with the design choices, that's fine too.

I need to step out now for dinner, so if I don't respond it's not because I hate you.
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Choosing one painting out of thousands doesn't prove your point. Many artist have sexualized women. Not to mention you have no clue what either artists thought process were, actually on the last page somebody posted the artists thought process, maybe you should read that.
 
Vire said:
If you can't tell the difference between this:

Dragon Crown

and this:

"Venus Asleep" - Giorgione

I don't know what to tell you.

One treats the female with an ounce of respect and the other doesn't

Anyway, if that appeals to you - that's fine. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the Polygon reviewer disagreed with the design choices, that's fine too.

I need to step out now for dinner, so if I don't respond it's not because I hate you.
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one is exaggerated and abnormal and the latter is realistic and normal.
just because certain body parts are exaggerated and some are not - sorc vs elf - doesn't mean that it doesnt respect the human body or sex.
 
Vire said:
Exactly what I was saying earlier, why is she wearing that clothing? What is it in service of?

Is it part of her character to cleverly and smartly seduce otherwise foolish men, using her charms?

If so then fine, but it seems like there is no real purpose other than fan service.
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Isn't part of her character description mention that she is a seductress that uses her body to her advantage?
 
njean777 said:
Choosing one painting out of thousands doesn't prove your point. Many artist have sexualized women.
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Yes! And given the varying reactions that such depictions generate, you'd almost think that it's not the sexualization itself that's the issue, but rather the context that it's presented in.
 
Vire said:
Exactly what I was saying earlier, why is she wearing that clothing? What is it in service of?

Is it part of her character to cleverly and smartly seduce otherwise foolish men, using her charms?

If so then fine, but it seems like there is no real purpose other than fan service.
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She does actually, this was posted in another DC thread:

Caerith said:
As for the Sorceress and her big boobs and overdone sex appeal etc etc, consider this:
k0ml9B9.png
rkqGuuf.png

Who is the Sorceress, really? Or, rather, how old is she, and is everything with her what it seems to be?
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I guess from the card artwork, it's speculated that she's actually hundreds of years old and wants to look sexy again.

Edit - I haven't read most of the reviews, but I'd be surprised if anyone picked up on this.
 
Welp.
Dragon's Crown threads have devolved into mush again.
I'll just be enjoying the game, then.

I urge everyone to give it a try.
I find it phenomenal.
 
Aeana said:
People's opinions about almost everything are definitely colored by their morals and ideals. So what? If you don't agree with her, then disregard her review. But I ask again: if you already decided that you're going to buy it and your feelings about it seem cemented, what value are reviews for you anyway? Are you just looking for validation of your feelings about the game? Is it such a big deal that there's a review out there that you disagree with?
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Why post on a gaming forum at all? I thought the entire point of being here was to talk about how we feel about things. Why disregard things I don't like while talking about things I do like? I don't feel as though I need to justify why I am posting what I want to say with a reason of some kind.

To answer your questions, though:
1) Reviews are never valuable to me. I haven't read a full review in ages. The most I do is check the number and +/- signs on rpgamer.com because their valuations generally reflect mine.

2) I definitely don't need to validate my feelings about the game. My wife and my sister are both going to play it with me, and they're both excited about it. They also both know I love large breasts and am a huge fan of the Sorceress.

3) No, it's not a big deal that there is a review out there that I disagree with. What does bother me is when people argue against straw men. I also found TheSpoiler's post hilarious, and I really wanted to repost it here so it could be appreciated. :-)

The review itself is uninteresting to me; I didn't read most of it. I think the biggest crime in that review is actually how image-heavy it is. I've never read a Polygon review before, but that thing took forever for my computer to load. I much prefer the style of review sites that just have small pictures to click on near the sideline if I want to. I am grateful for the rage Kamitani's character designs have caused, because it's part of why the game is selling so well. There was a lot of free press there, and for every moralist upset at the Sorceress' breasts, there were likely a hundred more that pre-ordered the game as a result!

Reflecting on this over lunch a bit, one thing that does bother me is the attempts at shame-inducement made in the review. "Dragon's Crown is an unapologetic adolescent fantasy" - what a nasty thing to say about the people who like this sort of game. It's just an unhealthy way to be, going out of your way to make people feel bad for what they like. As if there weren't enough priests in the world as it is.
 
Why are people even wasting their time with this "discussion"? You could just go back to one of the equally circular old Dragons Crown threads and copy and paste the lot in here and no-one would notice the difference
 
Abriael said:
There's a lot of fact in the quality of a game, even just looking at its technical competence.

That's why I said a review should be balanced fairly between objectivity and opinion. There's room for both, but when you dock several points to a game because of your personal taste on something as completely alien to quality as art style, you're misleading your readers.

You're effectively telling your readers that the game isn't good, when that obviously doesn't apply to a vast portion of them.
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Your not really misleading your viewers. A person coming at the review should have their own personal tastes dictate whether the criticisms within the review align with their own tastes, and then make a decision based off that. If I happen to enjoy really super hard games, than a reviewer giving a game a bad score purely on the basis that it's hard isn't misleading to me at all, nor would I say that a reviewer's not allowed to give a game a bad score based purely on it's difficulty. Likewise, if Dragon's Crown art is totally fine to me, than I shouldn't then take her views on the art as some objective metric. The review is only misleading if a reviewer deliberately lies in the review.
 
IHaveCandy said:
Completely agree with this. There are so many films that have tons of sex and nudity in it that aren't "necessary". Is Monster's Ball really better off having an explicit sex scene where you can literally see Billy Bob Thorton's testicles touching Halle Barry's ass? Clearly the director put it in there just go build controversy and get pervs to watch the movie.They just want to slip in a mini porno movie in to get cheap ticket sales. I'm disappointed more reviewers did not make at least 50% of the review about this scene and how sexist it was.
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Ultimately some films are worthy of being labeled trash, useless, or soft core, but hey, they still got made, and I'm sure it was appreciated by some people. I'd hate to see certain subject matter not explored or have aspects toned down because it's not what the gaming thought police finds acceptable.

So with that in mind I don't think the art in DC should've been cause for any reviewer to dock it points.
 
To each their own, right? Objectively, the Sorc and Amazon clearly have huge tits and ass. Subjectively, the huge T&A artwork is pleasing.

Will buy.
 
Abriael said:
There's a lot of fact in the quality of a game, even just looking at its technical competence.

That's why I said a review should be balanced fairly between objectivity and opinion. There's room for both, but when you dock several points to a game because of your personal taste on something as completely alien to quality as art style, you're misleading your readers.

You're effectively telling your readers that the game isn't good, when that obviously doesn't apply to a vast portion of them.

I hate mario. With a passion. His character design, way of expression, caricature and the whole idea irk every cell of my being.

Guess what? I never gave a mario game I reviewed in 16 years below an 8. Why?

Because despite my personal taste I'm able to recognize that the particular Mario games I reviewed were objectively good.
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Sure, a review is an opinion, but that opinion cannot overshadow the objectivity and if a videogame is a good game, the reviewer *must* give the right credit to that, otherwise his/her review will fall in a sea of useless words.

Anyway, I feel so "normal" to agree with you and, yes, great post from you !
 
vpance said:
Don't know if it's been addressed yet but why should games be held to a different regard than film? There's all sorts of films of any subject matter and characterization being made.
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Do you really think movies never get criticized for their depictions of female characters or their use of sex?
 
Karsticles said:
Reflecting on this over lunch a bit, one thing that does bother me is the attempts at shame-inducement made in the review. "Dragon's Crown is an unapologetic adolescent fantasy" - what a nasty thing to say about the people who like this sort of game. It's just an unhealthy way to be, going out of your way to make people feel bad for what they like. As if there weren't enough priests in the world as it is.
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Well put.
 
IcyEyes said:
Sure, a review is an opinion, but that opinion cannot overshadow the objectivity and if a videogame is a good game, the reviewer *must* give the right credit to that, otherwise his/her review will fall in a sea of useless words.

Anyway, I feel so "normal" to agree with you and, yes, great post from you !
Click to expand...

There is no objectivity in a game other than does the game boot up, are there glitches, what is the framerate, etc. It's silly to ask or expect anything other than the reviewer's unfiltered opinion. The only reason people keep bringing up this "objective" nonsense is because there is an objective score attached to a subjective opinion. I really wish the industry would just adopt a rottentomatotes style of reviews so we could move away from this number bullshit.
 
I'm waiting for it to be confirmed, but I really like the idea of the sorceress being an old hag. Nice twist.
 
Riposte said:
You accused of Kamitani/Vanillaware of "pandering to the lowest common denominator". This implies that this product (at least first and foremost) is being designed to fit an audience and not being designed through the creativity of an artist. What proof do you have of this?

It would be like saying that it isn't possible for Naughty Dog to want to create a "zombie" post-apocalypse TPS because that combination is made up of some of the most popular themes and genres. Thus they must be after the LCD.
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I could see people who haven't played Vanillaware games before thinking this. But knowing the developer and knowing Kamitani, it's just impossible for me to imagine he came at the Sorceress and Amazon with a teenage mindset.

I wonder how people would react if Naugty Dog -- a developer people trust, came out with a game featuring female characters that looked like Bayonetta or the amazon. Would they give ND the benefit of the doubt?
 
Came in here to read about the gameplay but I guess that's not the hot topic right now.

Vire said:
If you can't tell the difference between this:

1363248926-dragon-s-crwon-sorceress.jpg


and this:

giorgione-venus-asleep.jpg


I don't know what to tell you.

One treats the female with an ounce of respect and the other doesn't
Click to expand...

Holy shit.

As soon as I'm in I'm out.
 
CraftySkills said:
There is no objectivity in a game other than does the game boot up, are there glitches, what is the framerate, etc. It's silly to ask or expect anything other than the reviewer's unfiltered opinion. The only reason people keep bringing up this "objective" nonsense is because there is an objective score attached to a subjective opinion. I really wish the industry would just adopt a rottentomatotes style of reviews so we could move away from this number bullshit.
Click to expand...

I think a better way of putting it is that readers tend to go in reading a review to find out if the game is good or bad, not what offends the reviewer. They're obviously perfectly within their right to make a large part of the review about what offends them. But I think they will find that a lot of readers don't care to read that and will lose desire to return for more opinions from them.
 
I don't like the way Escapist's conclusion starts with "If the game's questionable portrayal of women and lackluster storyline aren't enough to put you off"
 
Riposte said:
I'm waiting for it to be confirmed, but I really like the idea of the sorceress being an old hag. Nice twist.
Click to expand...

Where is this hinted?

And this is actually exactly what sorceresses do in the Witcher universe. They don't mention it in the games at all, but most sorceresses in that universe are actually noblewomen with magical talent deemed so ugly that no one would marry them (hunchbacks, etc.), so instead of going off to a convent they go to magic school.
 
$h@d0w said:
She does actually, this was posted in another DC thread:



I guess from the card artwork, it's speculated that she's actually hundreds of years old and wants to look sexy again.

Edit - I haven't read most of the reviews, but I'd be surprised if anyone picked up on this.
Click to expand...

See this is actually pretty awesome.

If this was somehow represented in the game, I'd have less of a problem with it.

IHaveCandy said:
Fixed for you.
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All that shows is a lack of a self-respect for the woman on the right.
 
How big are a character's boobs allowed to be before they become disrespectful to women? Exactly how much cleavage can they show, mathematically speaking?

What about butts? We're barely scratching the surface!
 
RedSwirl said:
Where is this hinted?

And this is actually exactly what sorceresses do in the Witcher universe. They don't mention it in the games at all, but most sorceresses in that universe are actually noblewomen with magical talent deemed so ugly that no one would marry them (hunchbacks, etc.), so instead of going off to a convent they go to magic school.
Click to expand...

22 posts above yours.
 
Vire said:
See this is actually pretty awesome.

If this was somehow represented in the game, I'd have less of a problem with it.



All that shows is a lack of a self-respect for the woman on the right.
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Why is self-respect innately related to Puritan morals? You really think a woman cannot be revealing with her body and have genuine self-respect at the same time? What exactly is wrong with nudity?
 
bon said:
How big are a character's boobs allowed to be before they become disrespectful to women? Exactly how much cleavage can they show, mathematically speaking?

What about butts? We're barely scratching the surface!
Click to expand...

a women's boob must be no bigger than pineapples of mexico. because if it's not realistic and proportionate to society, its sexist.
 
I'm about 14 hours in, and I seriously do not see what is so lackluster about the story. It's the perfect portrayal of a D&D campaign.
 
bon said:
How big are a character's boobs allowed to be before they become disrespectful to women? Exactly how much cleavage can they show, mathematically speaking?

What about butts? We're barely scratching the surface!
Click to expand...

Seems like a matter of context.

A bikini clad character let's say.... Mass Effect would be disrespectful in its blatancy.

It's perfectly fine and dandy in a game as exaggerated and inspired as Dragon's Crown.

EDI's model in Mass Effect 3 is much more dumb than anything in Dragon's Crown.
 
Vire said:
See this is actually pretty awesome.

If this was somehow represented in the game, I'd have less of a problem with it.
Click to expand...

The cards (and for the other characters) are in the game.

I can't remember where but I've seen then on a trailer or video, maybe someone can point out where.
 
thetrin said:
I'm about 14 hours in, and I seriously do not see what is so lackluster about the story. It's the perfect portrayal of a D&D campaign.
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"Gamers" have become spoiled pricks is part of the problem I think. Same goes with a lot of so called "reviewers".
 
IHaveCandy said:
I think a better way of putting it is that readers tend to go in reading a review to find out if the game is good or bad, not what offends the reviewer. They're obviously perfectly within their right to make a large part of the review about what offends them. But I think they will find that a lot of readers don't care to read that and will lose desire to return for more opinions from them.
Click to expand...

The review doesn't skimp on the mechanics,design, etc, so you are still able to decide whether this game is for you based on the review. Besides, time and time again show that reviews are less of way for people to decide whether a game is good or bad, and more of a way for it to solidify what the person coming to the review has already made up in their mind.
 
So I don't plan on getting this game because the way they do difficulty. Having to beat the game multiple times to get to the difficulties I want to play stinks. It seems the initial playthroughs are especially bad too. Fuck, unlocking difficulties and "new game plus" ruin another game. It is sad that people see this stuff as features. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
 
CraftySkills said:
The review doesn't skimp on the mechanics,design, etc, so you are still able to decide whether this game is for you based on the review. Besides, time and time again show that reviews are less of way for people to decide whether a game is good or bad, and more of a way for it to solidify what the person coming to the review has already made up in their mind.
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Sounds like she doesn't mention quite a few details about multiplayer.
 
Riposte said:
So I don't plan on getting this game because the way they do difficulty. Having to beat the game multiple times to get to the difficulties I want to play stinks. It seems the initial playthroughs are especially bad too. Fuck, unlocking difficulties and "new game plus" ruin another game. It is sad that people see this stuff as features. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
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I dont think it is wrong, just I really do not care to go balls to the wall hard. Your opinion is valid and they shouldn't hide it behind unlocks.
 
Vire said:
All that shows is a lack of a self-respect for the woman on the right.
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This is what I'm talking about, right here. This attitude that started with the best of intentions but over time became this weird aversion to seeing women show any pride in their bodies or express any degree of sexuality. This totally naive mindset that dictates women must be cloistered and asexual to be "respectable". This attitude offends me more than any of the art in Dragon's Crown.

thetrin said:
I'm about 14 hours in, and I seriously do not see what is so lackluster about the story. It's the perfect portrayal of a D&D campaign.
Click to expand...
That sounds right up my alley.
 
Riposte said:
So I don't plan on getting this game because the way they do difficulty. Having to beat the game multiple times to get to the difficulties I want to play stinks. It seems the initial playthroughs are especially bad too. Fuck, unlocking difficulties and "new game plus" ruin another game. It is sad that people see this stuff as features. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
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You want to play a mode ment for level 65 characters at level 1?

Do you also enjoy Inferno runs with level 1 characters in Diablo?

The difficulties are there as a new game plus thing. It's so your powered up characters have a challenge.

Unless you find fighting regular enemies that take as long to kill as a boss and hour long boss fights that one shot you at level 1 to be fun in a game like this
 
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