-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
European Parliament Elections 2014 |OT| The Undemocratic EU is Actually Elected
- Thread starter anonymous_abc
- Start date
- Status
CyclopsRock
Member
Woah woah woah... a plurality of MEP's want Nuclear phased out?! What the hell is wrong with these people?!
ComputerMKII
Banned
My results
Why not vote?
Politicians only work for them, not for us, specially the European Parliament is a dinosaurs graveyard were party members who have got everything in their country, or where nobody in their country like, win a golden retirement.
Nearly every new I hear from EP is a shitty law or measure that regulate or standardize a fact and enclose our freedom, something we don't need. I hate them.
I live in a poor country, EU has only made our prices increase and nearly be the same in every country, but not the salaries. All that people live in a bubble (workers party leaders too), vote them is perpetuate and accomplice with a system I want to destroy.
Sadly there are no parties who want to act like a trojan horse.
Nicktendo86
Member
The Kinnock's spring to mind Sylver
Broder Salsa
Banned
When you take Norway away from Scandinavia, it really looks like a penis.
We're not burning enough coal and Russian gas of course.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I wouldn't bother, but I'm literally going to be right there in the polling booth for the local council elections (UK).
anonymous_abc
Member
Let's make that the topic of another discussion thread.
mind you I agree, we should get rid of nuclear power. It creates waste that we will have to live with for thousands of years without having any idea what to do with it. Also watch 'Uranium, is it a country?'
You actually vote at Council elections?
We just had a by-election, only about 700 people bothered. I had to moan at the wife for about 10 minutes until she agreed to go, even though she drives past the polling station on the way home
That's the big problem with EU elections too of course
anonymous_abc
Member
Might I ask what country that is? I don't want to jump to conclusions by looking at your avatar.
And what exactly do you want to destroy? democracy? the EU? Your own government?
What would you want to put in its place?
And rather than whine, have you ever considered actually becoming politically active?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Of course! Things like local speed limits, street parking and how frequently my bins are collected have a tangiable impact on my day-to-day life. And it's something I feel I can have an actual effect on (especially if only 700 people vote, my one vote is pretty important).
These EU elections, I don't know. I'd rather the UK was out of it tbh, but I don't really want to vote for UKIP (with all their anti-science, anti-gay etc. baggage), so maybe the best way to register my disdain is just not to vote. The turnout is pretty low (2004 - 45%, 2009 -43%). Maybe it will dip into the 30s this time, and questions about legitimacy will start to be raised.
Nicktendo86
Member
I am going to vote as will be there anyway to try to boot the corrupt piece of shit mayor of tower hamlets Luthor Rahman out. Problem I am having is do I vote labour who are the biggest threat to him but have a terrible record of mismanagement at the council? What a quandary....
I'm totally the opposite in my view of the EU, but seems the vote of the sensible euro-skeptic in the UK would be Tory or Abstain
Regarding elections, the only ones I can't really be bothered with are general elections thanks to first past the post, and me living in one of the safest Tory seats in the country. I usually just spoil my ballot
Succinct Verbosity
Member
Though MEPs are merely affiliated with my local Labour councillors, my local labour councillor recently helped me a lot after my mums death, whereas my conservative ones were nowhere to be found. Frankly the tories can go spin on it.
CyclopsRock
Member
I think another problem I have is that the EU parliament naturally attracts people who want to see the EU receive greater and greater power over its national members. If you decide to want to go into politics in a serious way, why would you choose the European Parliament rather than your own national government? Presumably because you think it's just the bee's knees. This is indicated by the fact that 80% of them appear to want national sportspeople to fly the EU flag, far more than the actual population. It just seems to me that the solution, given that bunch of people running the parliament, will almost always be "The EU needs to do more!" which, if you're against the idea of them doing more, leaves you with one of two choices: You vote for the one you agree with on policy and have to suck up the fact that the EU will grow, or you vote for a Eurosceptic party who may not share your policy aims.
This is, typically, not a problem in national governments.
This is, typically, not a problem in national governments.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
Nigel Farage's only power comes from the EU Parliament. Joke politician confirmed.
I'm one of those who believe that people who stopped trusting politicians from their country have a good reason to vote there. National politicians may act like they're all for Europe but get still pissed when they get their duties reminded, so they're perfectly fine with a non-representative parliament.
Who voted for the net neutrality ? The parliament.
Who's likely to vote against ? The EU council. Our head of states...
Who voted for the net neutrality ? The parliament.
Who's likely to vote against ? The EU council. Our head of states...
CyclopsRock
Member
But that's sort of my point. If you're a liberal sort of person but one who thinks the national government is a better place to do this kind of stuff than the EU parliament, who do you vote for?
Nicktendo86
Member
That's the issue for nr too. I don't believe in the EU and think we should pull out, but wouldn't vote UKIP for a variety of reasons, so who do I vote for?
anonymous_abc
Member
I just have a hard time understanding what people have agains the EU.
Yes it needs to be reformed.
Yes it needs to be held more to account.
Yes transition is painful.
Yes the Euro crisis is a disaster!
Yes Europe needs to be more social and less neo-liberal!
But I honestly don't see the problem with Europe as a whole growing closer together.
From an economic standpoint it makes sense to give Europe greater clout in globalisation.
Environmentally it makes sense for Europe as a whole to improve our surroundings, the air quality, reduce overfishing. All this could not be done by single states. If Holland were to say no more cloak power plants to better our air quality, what difference would it make if all neighbour states would put their coal power plants on the border with Holland.
Things like the Kyoto Protocol would have probably had a far harder time being "successful" if you want to call it that if the EU hadn't put enormous combined effort behind the endeavour.
The EU regulating that we no longer have to pay for roaming charges is great. Its great for anyone she once in a while leaves their home country and its great for innovative IT businesses that want to be able to play to the entire continent and not just their native country.
Any company that exports goods in the EU has to abide by one set of rules instead of 28. How anyone can argue the EU introduces red tape is beyond me, if every company had to deal with 28 sets of rules there would undoubtedly be more red tape.
I just love the fact that I can get on a train travel through dozens of countries without having to worry about passports, visas and currency.
Now I accept many of these things would be possible with 28 separate states if they each had bilateral agreements and decades of negotiation. But why not just go that extra step and become the european union?
I really just have a hard time understanding.
Personally I will be controversial and state outright, I would absolutely welcome a United States of Europe, why the hell wouldn't I? I have zero national pride towards either of my separate ancestral countries (Germany and Britain) If people ask me do I feel more british or german, I always say European.
People that say centralisation is bad. I agree, thats why a federal state like Germany is awesome. Many things are done and legislated on Bundesland level not everything is done from Berlin. But large issues need to be felt with on a central level. No one expects Brussels to decide what the new road next door is going to be called. There are multiple levels of government in any State, I would gladly give up the National level in Berlin or London to Brussels.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the EU that cannot be fixed if we just finally decide to fix it. None of the problems people have would suddenly disappear if we turned back the clocks to 1952.
Yes it needs to be reformed.
Yes it needs to be held more to account.
Yes transition is painful.
Yes the Euro crisis is a disaster!
Yes Europe needs to be more social and less neo-liberal!
But I honestly don't see the problem with Europe as a whole growing closer together.
From an economic standpoint it makes sense to give Europe greater clout in globalisation.
Environmentally it makes sense for Europe as a whole to improve our surroundings, the air quality, reduce overfishing. All this could not be done by single states. If Holland were to say no more cloak power plants to better our air quality, what difference would it make if all neighbour states would put their coal power plants on the border with Holland.
Things like the Kyoto Protocol would have probably had a far harder time being "successful" if you want to call it that if the EU hadn't put enormous combined effort behind the endeavour.
The EU regulating that we no longer have to pay for roaming charges is great. Its great for anyone she once in a while leaves their home country and its great for innovative IT businesses that want to be able to play to the entire continent and not just their native country.
Any company that exports goods in the EU has to abide by one set of rules instead of 28. How anyone can argue the EU introduces red tape is beyond me, if every company had to deal with 28 sets of rules there would undoubtedly be more red tape.
I just love the fact that I can get on a train travel through dozens of countries without having to worry about passports, visas and currency.
Now I accept many of these things would be possible with 28 separate states if they each had bilateral agreements and decades of negotiation. But why not just go that extra step and become the european union?
I really just have a hard time understanding.
Personally I will be controversial and state outright, I would absolutely welcome a United States of Europe, why the hell wouldn't I? I have zero national pride towards either of my separate ancestral countries (Germany and Britain) If people ask me do I feel more british or german, I always say European.
People that say centralisation is bad. I agree, thats why a federal state like Germany is awesome. Many things are done and legislated on Bundesland level not everything is done from Berlin. But large issues need to be felt with on a central level. No one expects Brussels to decide what the new road next door is going to be called. There are multiple levels of government in any State, I would gladly give up the National level in Berlin or London to Brussels.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the EU that cannot be fixed if we just finally decide to fix it. None of the problems people have would suddenly disappear if we turned back the clocks to 1952.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
I can see your point. However, euroscepticism is an inherently right wing movement. Both from an economic and moral perspective; the abolishment of free movement and the resistance to an integrated, open trading union are deeply against whatever alignment of "liberal" you can imagine. Moreover, for me, I'm more likely to vote for larger parties that will, at least, consider each policy and its benefits and failings. UKIP still seems like a one policy party that blames all its own countries problems on the EU, which strikes me as a huge contrivance.
Huw_Dawson
Member
A candidate who can do a good job within the current infrastructure whilst campaigning to get out of it.
UKIP's fallacy is that they require the EUP to actually have any legitimacy, despite the fact that their core goals can only be accomplished via the UK HoC which they have precisely no chance of getting into.
If people in the UK actually bothered to vote in the EUP elections, UKIP would probably have next to no MEPs. As it stands, voter apathy awards a bunch of hard-right nutcases free paychecks because they lie on national television semi-convincingly.
To be clear to the poster above who says UKIP blame all of the UK's problems on the EU - that isn't true. They like blaming immigrants too.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Well, yeah the freedom of movement thing ties into right-wing concerns over immigration numbers (in the UK at least), but if you suggested an "open trading union" with Europe I don't think you'd get many Tories disagreeing with that. Isn't that what we were promised back in the 70s even?
Flix, there's 28 countries in the EU! Don't leave out Croatia bro! Edit: Ah, I see
Huw_Dawson
Member
Yep, the referendum on the EU was to enter the EEC, which is now known as the EU.
anonymous_abc
Member
I know, I was talking from the perspective of one country dealing with 27 others.
But I see how it sounds wrong, thanks for the heads up.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I am really biased on this topic today (I am a Lib Dem member) so apologies if I sound a bit nasty in my next paragraph:
UKIP are arses, please don't vote for them. If you hate the EU, campaign against it, but don't vote in the nasty lot to do no work for five years.
UKIP are arses, please don't vote for them. If you hate the EU, campaign against it, but don't vote in the nasty lot to do no work for five years.
The Labour Party in the UK used to be Eurosceptic. There are certainly many left-wing arguments against free trade. There are also left-wing arguments against freedom of movement as it potentially makes the job market more competitive for working-class people.
You can, I'm from Spain.
We are at one point we do not need politicians, we need a good administration, we need public sector-managers, we need people pay for fraud they do. We need participatory democracy. I refuse to share my decisions for "x" years specially in the time we live on where I can deal with administration from everywehere, like blank cheque. If we believe in an European Union (I don't, we have nothing to do with northern european people) all social benefits, taxes, salary, job time, should be the same but well all we know this won't happen, this would mean all nations should give EU all the power and none of them will renounce.
We have democracy in particracy form, you read their manifesto and choose the one who is near to your thoughts, but I'm sure you can be against some ideas the party you voted and agree with some others the party who represents the opposite you voted. Why do not let people vote all ideas other people propose?.
This issue increase a lot in local elections because not only direct democracy does not exists, many european countries have D'Hondt method, this kills what democracy should be.
I just believe in freedom
, my freedom ends where yours stars and your freedom ends where mine starts that is all.I remember those times where we spaniards weren't european members and everybody even modest families with the most modest job could afford to buy their own home even a second house and only have to deal with banks for 1 year if you used your full wage.
You need so much time for this at least if you want to success, I have one job and two own business xD that is impossible.
Nicktendo86
Member
As a lib dem member can I ask you honestly, who do you think won the Farage/Clegg debates?
About the thread title, lots of undemocratic nations have electionss, meaning an election in itself isnt really enough to consider it democratic. Anyways, that is probably a discussion for another thread. Would have voted for the left if i could vote, since they are more or less the only party with any interest in conserving some kind of european social system in the face of ongoing assaults from neoliberalism.
That's a great thread, thanks for making this. We hardly ever hear about the different groups in the European parliament and I probably couldn't have named one, though I at least heard of some names there.
Anyway, this seems to be my first election in which I simply have no idea who to vote for, I hope gathering some information will help until the actual election. I'll do the test from the OP later on.
As an electoral assistant I'm already dreading the huge ballot paper, at least I remember it being ridiculously long the last time.
Anyway, this seems to be my first election in which I simply have no idea who to vote for, I hope gathering some information will help until the actual election. I'll do the test from the OP later on.
As an electoral assistant I'm already dreading the huge ballot paper, at least I remember it being ridiculously long the last time.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
Out of curiousity, what are your views on the House of Lords?
I agree with you 100% Fli, sadly it's quite rare to find people who have similar views to us in real life, I fear the UKIP has done a great deal of damage to the image of EU which will take a very long time to fix.
You do know the Commission doesn't just pull those proposals out of their arses, right?
They have the right of initiative, but the initiative to form tose initiatives comes elsewhere - mostly from the council. They're more like the civil service of the EU.
edit: I'd love to get European Parliament more involved in the process. That'd mean the national governments would lose more of their power, which wouldn't suit all.
Nicktendo86
Member
The lords don't initiate legislation, they scrutinise/approve it and can be bypassed entirely with the parliament act. It isn't a fair comparison at all.
As I said on the first page, the fact that the council make the legislation is bizarre. I know they don't pull it out of their arses, but surely elected officials should be the ones to create laws?
I'm either voting UKIP or nothing. I don't know yet. And lawl people trying to talk up the legitimacy of the EU. No matter how you twist it and turn it, the EU remains an undemocratic clusterfuck that is too powerful and too far removed to be held accountable. a parliament that doesn't have the power to introduce laws is no fucking parliament.
Ever closer union, federal government bla bla. no thanks. I prefer my national government which I can see and read about in the newspaper, which we can protest and be outraged over, which then actually leads to results. No Schulz, von pompoi and that barrosso clown. the EU is a b-class institution for c-class politicians. the sooner we abolish it or take it back to its root (a free trade zone) the better. I'll vote for which ever party promises that or has it least as part of their agenda even if they'll never be able to deliver it.
Ever closer union, federal government bla bla. no thanks. I prefer my national government which I can see and read about in the newspaper, which we can protest and be outraged over, which then actually leads to results. No Schulz, von pompoi and that barrosso clown. the EU is a b-class institution for c-class politicians. the sooner we abolish it or take it back to its root (a free trade zone) the better. I'll vote for which ever party promises that or has it least as part of their agenda even if they'll never be able to deliver it.
So would you support the EU, if newspapers reported more about them?
Yes, because that power is still held by the national governments. You know, our elected governments. They initialize the process which the commission works on to form a draft.
If you want the elected parliament to have the power to introduce new laws it means your national government loses power. If you wan't your national government to have more power, the elected parliament loses it. Now which is it?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Yeah, I would suggest that this:
would be a very fringe opinion in the UK. I've never met anyone who thought we should be the same country as Malta and Latvia. I also don't think people in the UK generally consider themselves to be 'European' over being 'British' (I can almost hear the sound of Sir Fragula racing in to correct me on this though!)
Yeah no, it's nowhere near as simple as that. Any country can introduce legislation this way which then would also affect my country. What I want is for the EU to generally have less power and for the national governments to have more. Shifting power from the commission to parliament at this point will do nothing, it's already too late.
And national governments introduce legislation through which European body?
Which operates along what rules?
Nicktendo86
Member
The thing that gets me is during the Fararge/Clegg debate the argument of how many of the UK's laws come from the EU. Clegg said 7%, Farage said something like 70%. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but the point is nobody knows! No one can give us a definite answer! How can we say this is a democratic institution, we don't even know how many of our laws come from our elected parliament and how many from the EU. That is just madness to me.
Also, as far as I can tell, no one tell us what the net gain economically from being in the EU is. How much we pay in, how much we get out, rebates, our trade deficit, benefits payments, membership fees etc. What is the end result?
Also, as far as I can tell, no one tell us what the net gain economically from being in the EU is. How much we pay in, how much we get out, rebates, our trade deficit, benefits payments, membership fees etc. What is the end result?
- Status