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European Parliament Elections 2014 |OT| The Undemocratic EU is Actually Elected

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D

DrM

Redmond's Baby
I won't go to this election. Why' Because we have whooping 8 members in EU parliament and all they do is to leech nice salaries each month and do nothing for us.
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
Nicktendo86 said:
The thing that gets me is during the Fararge/Clegg debate the argument of how many of the UK's laws come from the EU. Clegg said 7%, Farage said something like 70%. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but the point is nobody knows! No one can give us a definite answer! How can we say this is a democratic institution, we don't even know how many of our laws come from our elected parliament and how many from the EU. That is just madness to me.
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do you know how laws from the EU get implemented in national law?
The EU drafts legislation. Which then the national government of each state has to somehow shoehorn into their existing laws. it wouldn't work any other way as the law text diverge greatly.
So the EU might say employees should work no more than 40 hours a week.
its then up the national government to decide where such a law is best place within the national legal framework. There are different tiles of legislation. ones that allow little to no divergence and those that give more leeway, so it is perfectly possible of the UK to put exactly that into their laws and for Denmark to write down no more than 35 hours. Laws that go over and beyond what the legislation stipulates are often valid.
The EU doesn't make laws, they are not allowed
National governments have a few years to implement the legislation after which they would be fined by the EU for non compliance, this happens all the time.
Now if in a member state someone sues using the local laws and is of the opinion that the law does not reflect the EU legislation the national courts go the European Court and ask them to asses the situation. They will then come back and say yes or no the national law does what the legislation was trying to do. I case of a no the national government then has to revisit their law and bill and change it to match the legislation.

Now it is near impossible to say how many laws come from the EU. For one piece of legislation the german law system might require adjustment in a dozen different law books and paragraphs. Laws are usually not just one simple change and thats it.
And even if you know how many laws are directly affected by eu legislation.
Almost every new law that a national government decides to pass will be scrutinised on a national level regarding a) current EU compliance and just as importantly b) possible future eu compliance. It seems more than certain that law makers on a national level are aware about what is currently in the pipeline in the EU and will often take that into account while making new laws. Now are these all laws that come from the EU?

It's just not as simple as counting 1+1.
And even if Britain were to leave the EU, in order to trade and do business with the EU, Britain would still have to comply with EU legislation just like Norway and Switzerland do to great extent! Without the added benefit of actually influencing that legislation and having a say within the EU.

Nicktendo86 said:
Also, as far as I can tell, no one tell us what the net gain economically from being in the EU is. How much we pay in, how much we get out, rebates, our trade deficit, benefits payments, membership fees etc. What is the end result?
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Thats something else I don't get. It's always me me me.
Whats so bad about being a net contributor? Yes it costs money but a net contributor is currently better of than say Romania and can help raise the standard of living there.
Who the fuck knows what the future brings, in a couple of years Britain might need assistance and Romania after an economical power period has become a net contributor and pays into the pot.
The aim is to get the standard of living to adjust all over the EU so we can all live at similar levels. Yes this will mean that some countries will have to cut back but overall it will greatly improve the standard of living in Europe.

And do you also object to 'westminster' money going to the poor underdeveloped regions of say Wales? Are you of the opinion they should fend for themselves too. Fuck the rest as long as my local bank manager gets his yearly bonus?
And why stop at the EU.
Wouldn't your county be better of without all those other counties and those bureaucrats in London living of your hard earned cash. Lets declare a separate state of Essex and leave the Union. Why stop there, maybe Chelmsford is economically so strong and prosperous that they want to do it alone and leave Essex.
Just silly.

It is to our great advantage to raise the standard of living in poorer Regions of the EU, in a couple of years they will be able to afford more BMWs and Jaguars.

Just measuring money in, money out falls a parsec short of being worth a discussion. Not everything can be measured that easily. And any semi-federal system would break apart if the stronger parts of it decided to leave while they are up and come crawling back when they are down.
Its the same in Germany, for decades Bavaria was a net profiteer from the german federal system of money transfer from richer to poorer states. Now that they are economically strong and the biggest net contributor they mumble and grumble about it forgetting how much they benefitted from the system in the past.
 
W

Walshicus

Member
FliXFantatier said:
Maybe you should elect other people then, you do know how democracy works right?
Click to expand...

The apathy strand of this thread is just infuriating. "They're all leeches!" - well stop voting for leeches.

Vote!

This is the parliament that represents YOU. Fuck Westminster, the EUP has a proven record of working for you. Roaming charges, nets neutrality, ACTA rejection, all huge things they've enabled which will have more positive impact on your lives than any of the shit national parliaments come out with.



It still baffles me how Europscepticism has such a hold on this country... Europe's track record just demolishes Westminster's even without factoring in the power gap.
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
But flix that is not how the EU is sold to us, it is sold to us as that we gain and benefit from bing in the eu, but is that actually true?

And what's wrong with wanting the best for your own country? I'm not saying poorer countries can go fuck themselves, far from it. You don't have to be in a political union to be able to assist other nations, that is just absurd.

Frang I am sorry but that is just ridiculous. Net neutrality and roaming charges are more than any national government has done for its people? Really? Are you honestly saying that?
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
Nicktendo86 said:
But flix that is not how the EU is sold to us, it is sold to us as that we gain and benefit from bing in the eu, but is that actually true?
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How can anyone think every member benefits monetarily from the EU?
It doesn't just print money and hand it out to all 28 member states. o_O
Basically its a huge pot, everyone puts in according to their means, everyone gets out according to their needs.

Frankfurter said:
(it's technically no "EU law", but it's "immediately enforceable as law" in all the EU member states)
Click to expand...


which is exactly what I was trying to get at.
 
T

timcsavage

Member
Dougald said:
I like voting in the EU elections, thanks to it actually having a proportional system, it means I'm less likely to be throwing my vote away

Depressing that this gets no coverage in the UK, I didn't even know there was an election coming up - I normally find out when my polling card shows up.
Click to expand...

I agree, there is instead too much coverage of how Europe is bad and that can only be changed by leaving - no mention of votes at all. I really hope UK eurosceptics are voted out this time.
 
D

Dougald

Member
Most people who care strongly about the EU in this country want us out, so that's not surprising. Most people won't vote as usual I'm sure
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
QuicheFontaine said:
No, you were talking about 'Directives', which, as you said, need to be implemented into national law.

'Regulations' don't.
Click to expand...

Directives need to be implemented into national law too, however by other means as described above.

Either way the main point I was trying to make was that you cannot just count 1, 2, 3 and come up with a credible number of laws that come from the EU.
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
FliXFantatier said:
Directives need to be implemented into national law too, however by other means as described above.

Either way the main point I was trying to make was that you cannot just count 1, 2, 3 and come up with a credible number of laws that come from the EU.
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"Too"? What are you talking about? I said that directives need to be implemented into national law.

Regulations do not need to be implemented into national law. They immediately have direct effect in all member states, and they are effectively a mechanism by which the EU 'makes' laws.
 
W

Walshicus

Member
Nicktendo86 said:
Frang I am sorry but that is just ridiculous. Net neutrality and roaming charges are more than any national government has done for its people? Really? Are you honestly saying that?
Click to expand...

I can't speak for Frang, but yes I'm saying that. I'm saying that Westminster has done nigh on fuck all for the vast majority of us. Well unless you're in a position to benefit from the selling off of a national asset by being Mates with Dave or Gideon.

The quality of outcome from the EUP is just better than Westminster, and I can't understand how there's any room for debate on that front. These days I can thank Europe for most every defence I have as a consumer, worker or just plain Human being. Westminster does nothing but try and turn us all into cogs in the economy machine. Given the relative scope of their powers, you'd have to trust Brussels over Westminster on any given day.

I'm not saying Brussels is perfect, I'm just saying it's better than Westminster.
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
Rising voter frustration over the European project and perceived dwindling national sovereignty is likely to push voters to vote for Eurosceptic parties in the coming EU-wide elections, according to latest opinion polls.

But the results may also modify the balance of forces within the European Parliament.

Old and new political alliances will have to face the consequences of European citizens’ votes, adapt to survive as groups, or see their power falter. The Eurosceptic landscape may be modified for years to come.

Current Eurosceptic groups will “suffer”
“At the moment we have two groups catering toward the Eurosceptic,” explains Cas Mudde, whose research focuses on European, populist, radical-right parties.

To form an official group, at least 25 members of parliament must join and they must represent at least seven of the 28 member states of the European Union.

Mudde, who is Dutch but working at the University of Georgia in the US, told euronews: “The European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR) are the kind of ‘soft’ Eurosceptic, who by and large support the EU, but think it should be predominantly economic.”

The ECR currently has 56 MEPs, 7.3% of the total 766, provided in majority by the British Conservative Party and the Czech Republic’s Civic Democratic Party (ODS).

The future of the ECR does not look bright, according to Mudde. “The ECR will have problems after 2014 as various member parties will not make it back into the EP (such as the Belgian Flemish LDD and the Modern Hungary Movement) and two of the largest parties, the ODS and Conservative Party, will lose a lot of seats.”

For example, the Tories, the best-performing British party in the 2009 European elections with 27.7% of the national vote, now lag in the polls in third place behind UKIP and the Labour Party, with 21% of voter intentions.

Also, some minor parties of the ECR group, Mudde suggests, “might be more attracted to a ‘harder’ Eurosceptic group”.

As a result, the most recent projections for the 2014 European elections, made in collaboration between the European Parliament and TNS Opinion, give the ECR 41 MEPs, 5.46% of the total of 751.
Click to expand...
more behind @euronews

This is very interesting as it seems perfectly plausible that the ECR will not be able to sustain itself in a new parliament, they currently represent 11 nations according to wikipedia. So if they are set to loose a few of those parties within the group it seems possible that they could drop below the required 7 members.
It would be very interesting to see what the Conservatives do then. I cannot see them being happy about going back to the EPP and definitely not hooking up with UKIP in the EFD. On the other hand it's quite possible that new more tame eurosceptics get in. the AfD (Alternative for Germany) seems like a good candidate to join the ECR.

The article goes on to describe that the EFD might also suffer losses, and that a further (3rd) eurosceptic group might emerge.
It seems very likely to me, with all the rhetoric of Wilders and Le Pen about forming a grand eurosceptic party in the EP, they might be able to get it of the ground but I would not be surprised to see them crash and burn with infighting as it is difficult to see hardcore nationalists from different states working together all too productively.
 
obin_gam

obin_gam

Member
I'm voting for the same party I voted for last time.

The Pirate Party with the fearless Captain of the Brussel Seas Amelia Andersdotter
amelia_andersdotter_pirat.jpg
amelia_andersdotter_donottrack_02.jpg
Click to expand...
 
B

Bri

Member
obin_gam said:
I'm voting for the same party I voted for last time.

The Pirate Party with the fearless Captain of the Brussel Seas Amelia Andersdotter
Click to expand...

I like the fact that she has her own thread on Flashback (Sweden's largest internet forum, compared to 4chan but more well-formulated by Andersdotter herself) where she answers most of the questions asked.
 
A

Acorn

Member
obin_gam said:
I'm voting for the same party I voted for last time.

The Pirate Party with the fearless Captain of the Brussel Seas Amelia Andersdotter
Click to expand...
Do ugly swedes exist? Seriously need to learn swedish and move. Social democracy and King Henrik Larsson. Sweden is perfect.
 
C

ComputerMKII

Banned
'Porn without borders' is key benefit of EU, says French MEP

Comment made by Joseph Daul, head of European parliament's biggest conservative group, when asked how to convince young people to vote in the upcoming EU Parliament elections

Easier access to porn movies across Europe's borders is one of the European Union’s key merits, the leader of the European parliament’s biggest conservative group has claimed.

Asked by a local French newspaper how he convinced young voters to go to the polls in May's European Parliament elections, Joseph Daul first said he spoke to them about “protecting the environment and food safety”.
But he said the killer argument when promoting the EU’s merits was the creation of “porn without borders”.

"I tell them that at their age, when I was 18, when I wanted to go to Kehl (across the border in Germany) to see porno movies that were banned in France, you had to wait two-and-a-half hours to get through customs.
"You'd get to the cinema and the film was already finished," he told Les Dernieres Nouvelles d'Alsace newspaper.

"And one out of every couple of times I'd realise I'd forgotten to bring deutschmarks!,” he said, underlining the advantages of having a single European currency, the euro, over national ones.

"When you explain it that way to youngsters they understand straight away what Europe means,” he said.
The quotes were part of a long interview by Mr Daul, 67, who grew up in Alsace, the eastern French region near the German border. He also mentioned the high points of his political career, such as meeting Barack Obama and Vladimir Putin.

The French member of the European Parliament has headed its biggest group since 2007, the European People's Party (EPP), which includes members of Angela Merkel’s CDU and the UMP party, France’s main opposition centre-Right group. He has decided not to run for MEP next month so he can dedicate more time to running the EPP.
Last year the European parliament debated a law imposing a "ban on all forms of pornography" including censorship of the internet in a bid to "eliminate gender stereotypes" that demean women. The ban was rejected.
Click to expand...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ers-is-key-benefit-of-EU-says-French-MEP.html
 
V

Visualante2

Member
Got my polling card and the resources on candidates in my region is quite poor. In the 2009 election wikipedia lists a dozen independent and joke parties but this time it is just the main parties. Perhaps it is not comprehensive.

I appreciate the link in the OP. It has helped me find at least one candidate to consider, if I can be bothered. I wonder if this will be a first choice, second choice deal like previous local elections.
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
Visualante2 said:
Got my polling card and the resources on candidates in my region is quite poor. In the 2009 election wikipedia lists a dozen independent and joke parties but this time it is just the main parties. Perhaps it is not comprehensive.

I appreciate the link in the OP. It has helped me find at least one candidate to consider, if I can be bothered. I wonder if this will be a first choice, second choice deal like previous local elections.
Click to expand...

Where are you?
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
BBC's Gavin Hewitt weighs in on the upcoming election and the influence that the anti establishment parties might have.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27129452
Even if the protest parties do very well - say they get 30% of the seats - they will struggle to unite in the European Parliament.

Already Nigel Farage and Marine Le Pen are squabbling over whether anti-Semitism still exists in her party. Mr Farage has cast his support in the French race for Debout La Republique (Stand up for the Republic). And the mainstream parties will make common cause, forming alliances to pursue their goal of closer European integration and increasing the influence of the parliament itself.

The European Parliament, although often derided, is a much more important institution than it used to be. Only last week it was taking important steps towards banking union, voting on greater transparency for lobbyists and setting up a new European Fisheries Fund.

It is most unlikely that the anti-establishment parties in the new parliament will be able to block or undermine the work of the committees and the chamber. They disagree too much among themselves. They will be dismissed as wreckers, extremists and populists. All easy put-downs.
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Even if the 'leaveEU' parties get 30% of the vote, that still means 70% are significantly more pro EU than not. I really don't see why this should undermine the overall trend towards closer EU ties.
 
M

MrChom

Member
I was quite surprised by this.

I took the poll up top and well....I'm a natural Labour or Lib Dem floating/tactical voter. Ahead of both of them I got Green and Plaid Cymru from the first poll, from euandi I had the greens in second behind the Lib Dems. Now I shall reconsider my vote.

Sadly the UK will see massive UKIP support because of a bunch of ignorant voters who can't see Farage for the 18th century guffawing buffoon he is, looking to reignite the flame of Empire through sheer force of conservatism.
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
MrChom said:
I was quite surprised by this.

I took the poll up top and well....I'm a natural Labour or Lib Dem floating/tactical voter. Ahead of both of them I got Green and Plaid Cymru from the first poll, from euandi I had the greens in second behind the Lib Dems. Now I shall reconsider my vote.

Sadly the UK will see massive UKIP support because of a bunch of ignorant voters who can't see Farage for the 18th century guffawing buffoon he is, looking to reignite the flame of Empire through sheer force of conservatism.
Click to expand...

the good thing about the EP elections is the proportional representation, so your vote for a smaller party isn't wasted as it is under FPTP.
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
Is Germany becoming more Eurosceptic?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-eu-27155893

"Germans are, all in all, still very enthusiastic about the European Union," says one of Hamburg University's political scientists, Kamil Marchinkiewicz.

So don't, he cautions, "overestimate the AfD's importance in German politics. It may function as an organisation bringing German Eurosceptics together, but in comparison to UKIP in Britain they are a soft kind of Eurosceptic."

Germans, he says, are "sceptical about British Euroscepticism, because they believe Germany is benefiting from the EU and most Germans believe that also Britain is benefiting from the EU."

"Germans are more sceptical about the chances of their country outside the EU, even though Germany is the most powerful country in Europe. They somehow probably underestimate their own power and they don't understand why Britain, even though it's a smaller country, probably overestimates its chances (outside the EU) in the globalised world."
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tldr: no.
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
So anyone watch the 'first ever' EP debate yesterday?
Sadly I was out on other party matters, might check out a recording of it this evening.

eTWnhoQ.png

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-eu-27202791
It was billed by the hosts as Europe's first-ever presidential television debate - which may have flummoxed Europeans unaware they had a president. And they don't.

But there is a President of the European Commission, and the four contenders taking questions from young voters in Maastricht are all campaigning for the job.

A brief reminder who they are: Ska Keller is the candidate of Europe's Green parties; Jean-Claude Juncker represents the centre-right European People's Party (EPP); the European Parliament President Martin Schulz is the Social Democrat in the race and former Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt is the Liberal hope. All, I think it's fair to say, relatively unknown outside their own countries.
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Mr Juncker - the dry exponent of sound money; Mr Schulz - the passionate critic of austerity; Mr Verhofstadt vigorously harried his main opponents. Ska Keller - a generation closer to the audience than the others - received strong applause when she said Europe had to confront the far-right, not appease it.
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C

CyclopsRock

Member
Succinct Verbosity said:
I can see your point. However, euroscepticism is an inherently right wing movement. Both from an economic and moral perspective; the abolishment of free movement and the resistance to an integrated, open trading union are deeply against whatever alignment of "liberal" you can imagine. Moreover, for me, I'm more likely to vote for larger parties that will, at least, consider each policy and its benefits and failings. UKIP still seems like a one policy party that blames all its own countries problems on the EU, which strikes me as a huge contrivance.
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Most the anti-EU people I know are very pro the idea of a trading union - that's part of the reason why they feel so betrayed by the EU, because "the last time we had a referendum" on Europe, it was about joining the EEC, which was a very different proposition to what we have now.

The EU is a funny institution, not unlike the BBC, where people on the right think it's too lefty, and people on the left think it's too righty; Because it simultaneously believes in the free movement of people's an pan-European rights that transcend national governments as well as neo-liberal (I hate that term - free trade is just "liberal", there's nothing 'neo' about it) free trade.

Personally, I don't understand why people make a distinction between the globalisation of production capacity (ie outsourcing to cheaper labour markets) and the free movement of peoples. To me, they're just two sides of the same coin, and I can't see a philosophical justification for supporting one and not the other. I support both. Yet it seems like you get a lot of people on the right who don't support free movement of people, and a lot of people on the left who think that globalisation is just the worst.
 
O

Oriel

Member
DrM said:
I won't go to this election. Why' Because we have whooping 8 members in EU parliament and all they do is to leech nice salaries each month and do nothing for us.
Click to expand...

So you believe small states should have the same representation as larger states? North Dakota would love you.
 
benjipwns

benjipwns

Banned
Apparently I'm supposed to move to the Netherlands and vote for Geert Wilder's party but it was only like 43%.

Speaking of similar parties, I noticed the other day that National Front was polling at like 23% or something in France, after getting 6% in 2009.
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
There are three petitions going to get the debates onto prime time main channels instead of having them hidden on some backwater channel no one ever watches in Germany, France and Britain.

JEF said:
This time is different says the official motto of the European Parliament for the election campaign. The rules of the game have changed. Under the Treaty of Lisbon the European Council has to take into account the results of the elections to propose the candidate for the presidency of the Commission to be elected by the European Parliament. This time is also different because for the first time all major European parties have taken into account this new rule and have nominated their candidate for the Commissions presidency. It has been a long-standing demand of the European Federalists who ran a campaign called “Who’s your candidate” in 2009.

So this time is different because we are having the first real European debate with the candidates for Commission presidency. The Young European Federalists welcome thus warmly the First European Presidential Debate with the five candidates which will take place on Monday 28th April in Maastricht. Another debate is foreseen for the 15th May. These debates are incredibly important since European citizens will be able to watch the different views debated on the future of this continent and thus actually know what and who they are voting for or against.

But this time it will only be different if these presidential debates of all candidates are broadcasted live at primetime on public channels. However, several TV channels all over Europe have not foreseen to broadcast these debates in their main programme. “European democracy requires a European public space and the vote of citizens needs to be informed by European debates”, explains Pauline Gessant, President of JEF Europe. “That’s why the Young European Federalists strongly support the petitions already addressed to the French, German and British public TV channels to ask them to broadcast the debates between the five candidates to the European elections”, adds Gessant.

"Every year millions of Europeans watch the Euro Vision Song Contest - a clear sign that many millions of people interested in European events" explains Linn Selle, Secretary General of JEF-Germany which has launched the German petition that already received more than 13.000 signatures in four days.

“The major European political parties have respected the new rules of the game. It’s now the turn of the media to do so. The 15th May must be broadcasted on prime time on main public channels in all the 28 Member States. It’s a matter of democracy, it’s a matter of respect of the European voters”, concludes Gessant.
Click to expand...
http://www.jef.de/jef/news/europaeer-ueberall-moechten-ihre-kandidaten-sehen/

- Link to the German petition: here
- Link to the French petition: here
- Link to the British petition: here
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
Tugatrix said:
All the show off and in the end this is an office that isn't directly voted by the people, so many shades of wrong in this
Click to expand...

In Germany we don't vote for the chancellor either, we vote parties into parliament which then in turn votes to choose the chancellor. Same in the UK and many other EU countries.

When the new EP votes for their choice of President, while not guaranteed, I cannot see the heads of government going against the EPs choice. Realistically Schulz or Junker.
So practically you vote for the president just as directly most people vote for the leader of government or head of state in most EU countries.
No difference, and lots of faux outrage.

SteveWinwood said:
What's the difference between s&d and alde? I'm American so I can't handle all these shades.
Click to expand...

That is beyond shades, liberal in Europe does not mean liberal in the US sense.
Here:
liberal = neo liberal != social
possibly similar to your libertarianism.

Here liberalism still means what it originally meant in NA it has been scewed to mean freedom in social issues (abortion, gay and drug rights) and strong government intervention on economic issues (more anti-free market, pro-regulation, ect.)

Discussion on the topic from elsewhere
 
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