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[trab pu kcip]

Omnivorism is massive evolutionary advantage that has kept us alive through massive extinction events and that we should keep as a trait in order to protect our species.

I'd rather be an ethical omnivore than an ethical vegan from that point of view.

Then there's also the fact about the vegan lifestyle being only possible thanks to the wholesale slaughter of millions of small mammals and birds living among the crops or from them. "Cruelty free" tofu burgers are soiled with the blood of hundreds of foxes, rabbits, mice and sparrows hunted, poisoned or simply crushed.

I laugh at this. this is straight up bullshit.
and even if it was true it's still different to actively decide to murder someone instead of things accidentally happening. plus it's not just vegans consuming crops, meat eaters do too.
also like the name already said evolution is all about evolving. in our society we don't really need to eat animal products to survive..in fact the way industrial animal production works is not sustainable for us or the environment anymore. ethical stuff aside. it simply can't last this way so the next logical step will be for it to change.

Lea, I'd keep out of the UK if I was you.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1240051

Americans too.

Hell, anyone who's not English in general. I expect the Scots to be victimised themselves any day now, especially given that they voted to remain.

I was hoping that after that MP killing and the vote happening that we'd be done with this whole Brexit ordeal...boy, I was wrong.

even tho the poor woman probably has no fault whatsoever it's kinda funny how Germans are attacked by this too now. especially when looking at all the nationalist notions happening in Germany too. there's your elite Herrenrasse for your now you stupid fucks

 

[Jobbs]

I laugh at this. this is straight up bullshit.
and even if it was true it's still different to actively decide to murder someone instead of things accidentally happening. plus it's not just vegans consuming crops, meat eaters do too.
also like the name already said evolution is all about evolving. in our society we don't really need to eat animal products to survive..in fact the way industrial animal production works is not sustainable for us or the environment anymore. ethical stuff aside. it simply can't last this way so the next logical step will be for it to change.

Also worth pointing out that the conditions in which the animals live and die is a separate point completely. Even if you are okay philosophically with consuming meat you should have a big problem with the inhumane treatment of pigs chickens cows etc which can be so inhumane that it is typically kept far from public sight

 

[Vazra]

Sigh can we slow down the vegan vs meat eaters? Everyone will continue to agree to disagree and in the end not everyone is gonna go vegan or the vegan go back to eating meat. Respect each other instead of throwing shit at each side.

 

[Jobbs]

Sigh can we slow down the vegan vs meat eaters? Everyone will continue to agree to disagree and in the end not everyone is gonna go vegan or the vegan go back to eating meat. Respect each other instead of throwing shit at each side.

I'm not telling people what to eat. I'm just trying to correct the various gymnastics people are doing to justify their lifestlye choices

If everyone just owned it like Holly then there'd be nothing to discuss

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Eeeh, child labour is pretty much exterminated in China. You can say what you want about this shithole of country here, but at least when they (the government) tackle an issue it will be taken care of very fast (reforestation projects for Inner Mongolia to battle the desertification, basically keeping pandas from gping instinct, way greater persecution of illegal animal products to name a few).



Dude, no....

Kay maybe it's not specifically China, but you cannot deny the fact that cheap labor is outsourced to people who live in absolute squalor and settle for what is essentially slavery to make products for the rest of us

 

[You Know Nothing]

Kay maybe it's not specifically China, but you cannot deny the fact that cheap labor is outsourced to people who live in absolute squalor and settle for what is essentially slavery to make products for the rest of us

Oh I know how to respond to this one:

*~*capitalism*~*

 

[FloatOn]

Also worth pointing out that the conditions in which the animals live and die is a separate point completely. Even if you are okay philosophically with consuming meat you should have a big problem with the inhumane treatment of pigs chickens cows etc which can be so inhumane that it is typically kept far from public sight

just for curiousity - how do you feel about local farmers who raise their animals humanely?

I understand that the major corporations do unspeakable things but are there not exceptions to this?

 

[Vazra]

I'm not telling people what to eat. I'm just trying to correct the various gymnastics people are doing to justify their lifestlye choices

If everyone just owned it like Holly then there'd be nothing to discuss

The thing is not everything has to be as black and white as you want it to be and everyone has different standards and limitations on things.

 

[trab pu kcip]

Sigh can we slow down the vegan vs meat eaters? Everyone will continue to agree to disagree and in the end not everyone is gonna go vegan or the vegan go back to eating meat. Respect each other instead of throwing shit at each side.

I never bring the topic up myself because it's tiring to me too but when I hear all the justifications I just want to scream.

 

[zeemumu]

I'm not telling people what to eat. I'm just trying to correct the various gymnastics people are doing to justify their lifestlye choices

If everyone just owned it like Holly then there'd be nothing to discuss

Jobbs, that moral high ground victory won't mean anything when people walk by and see that the high ground that you're standing on is a pile of bodies. The self-satisfaction has to be enough.

 

[IHaveIce]

I won't try to assign value systems to other people but I do find it strange how many people can fancy themselves animal lovers who care about animals sometimes but also eat pig and eggs etc, it sounds counter-intuitive to me

Either you have compassion for little animals or you don't... You can't play both sides :-/

Of course you can. You don't have to deal in absolutes that is not how the world goes.

Eat what you want people, I honestly don't give shit.

 

[Misha]

Of course you can. You don't have to deal in absolutes that is not how the world goes.

Eat what you want people, I honestly don't give shit.

What if I want to eat people?

 

[Jobbs]

just for curiousity - how do you feel about local farmers who raise their animals humanely?

I understand that the major corporations do unspeakable things but are there not exceptions to this?

More humane treatment is preferred, but since alternatives exist I'd rather just not kill anything. "It tastes nice" seems like a weak reason to kill something like a pig, which is a very intelligent and friendly creature fully capable of experiencing fear and pain

I would eat meat if it was a survival situation and I had no choice but to do so, which is the only time it makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think that'll happen though.

And I understand that suffering will always exist and that my actions and my life will probably always contribute to suffering somehow. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't do what I can.

Jobbs, that moral high ground victory won't mean anything when people walk by and see that the high ground that you're standing on is a pile of bodies. The self-satisfaction has to be enough.

I don't know what point you're trying to make, but would you run your car over a cat just because suffering exists all over the world and cats will always get hit by cars? No, because your conscience would prevent it. I've seen how slaughterhouse animals live and I know some facts about it and my conscience prevents me from participating.

 

[Bko]

Kay maybe it's not specifically China, but you cannot deny the fact that cheap labor is outsourced to people who live in absolute squalor and settle for what is essentially slavery to make products for the rest of us

Absolutely not, I understand your point and observation. But on the other hand we, as the West and people of great wealth, are in my opinion ethically obliged to use our position as consumers to leverage the conditions of those people who provide us with affordable goods. There are many companies who have dedicate their business practices to sustainability and fair trade. You can buy your cotton tshirts from brands that don't have suppliers who exploit Uzbek school children for cotton picking (I was born in Tashkent btw). And it doesn't cost us that much in the first place to provide those waz more favourable conditions that most likely everyone here would agree on.

 

[IHaveIce]

What if I want to eat people?

My Opinion sadly doesn't invalidate the law(not yet), so you are probably fucked.

 

[You Know Nothing]

What if I want to eat people?

As long as you get their permission first.

 

[trab pu kcip]

Of course you can. You don't have to deal in absolutes that is not how the world goes.

Eat what you want people, I honestly don't give shit.

you only don't give a shit because you have the luxury of doing so. if it was you or your family hanging upside down the slaughterhouse you'd certainly think differently.

humans are meat too people. why not eat the weak and sick? I mean we can if we are stronger.

 

[zeemumu]

you only don't give a shit because you have the luxury of doing so. if it was you or your family hanging upside down the slaughterhouse you'd certainly think differently.

humans are meat too people. why not eat the weak and sick? I mean we can if we are stronger.

Humans are bad for you.

 

[Misha]

My Opinion sadly doesn't invalidate the law(not yet), so you are probably fucked.

Darn

As long as you get their permission first.

There probably are people who are willing out there, sadly

 

[FloatOn]

More humane treatment is preferred, but since alternatives exist I'd rather just not kill anything. "It tastes nice" seems like a weak reason to kill something like a pig, which is a very intelligent and friendly creature fully capable of experiencing fear and pain

I would eat meat if it was a survival situation and I had no choice but to do so, which is the only time it makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think that'll happen though.

And I understand that suffering will always exist and that my actions and my life will probably always contribute to suffering somehow. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't do what I can.

When I do cook for myself and when I do chose to eat meat I do my best to buy meat locally as opposed to something like Tyson. I don't like that something was killed in order for me to continue my life but I do have some solace in the fact that my purchase helped support a local farmer rather than a major corporation.

 

[Vazra]

I never bring the topic up myself because it's tiring to me too but when I hear all the justifications I just want to scream.

I get tired of both sides cause its both sides being pushy and smearing the other sides. Both can go on the extremes and overall things seem more heated than they should and both sides acting like they are all mighty is irritating.

What if I want to eat people?

I would be on a dick diet but all I get is ass.

 

[trab pu kcip]

Humans are bad for you.

so are animals fed with antibiotics and all kinds of different shit.
and y'all have to worry about your arteries not getting clogged and stuff.

 

[Funky Papa]

I laugh at this. this is straight up bullshit.

A large chunk of my family is in the agri business. I spent a large part of my youth in the fields. Tell me more about how I'm making up bullshit. Go on.

and even if it was true it's still different to actively decide to murder someone instead of things accidentally happening. plus it's not just vegans consuming crops, meat eaters do too.

Here's the thing: meat eaters are at peace with the fact that heaps of mice were crushed by combine harvesters in order to make a loaf of bread. They simply don't care.

The "they do it too" argument isn't a particularly effective one when hurled by people claiming ethical superiority against people who simply accept the destruction of life for their nourishment.

Also, I happen to be very strongly for the increase in consumption of vegetables and the reduction of meat in our diets, both for ethical and sustainability reasons.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

Lea, I'd keep out of the UK if I was you.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1240051

Americans too.

Hell, anyone who's not English in general. I expect the Scots to be victimised themselves any day now, especially given that they voted to remain.

I was hoping that after that MP killing and the vote happening that we'd be done with this whole Brexit ordeal...boy, I was wrong.

This is what happens.

This is what happens when you chase the centre.

This is what happens when politicians pander to racists about their "very real concerns on immigration".

This is what happens when there are no mainstream voices fighting the entire concept of public spending cuts, blaming the problems instead on immigration.

Fight for your fucking beliefs, otherwise the only outlet for the disenfranchised is fascism.

you only don't give a shit because you have the luxury of doing so. if it was you or your family hanging upside down the slaughterhouse you'd certainly think differently.

humans are meat too people. why not eat the weak and sick? I mean we can if we are stronger.

I mean I wouldn't be against eating the rich

 

[IHaveIce]

you only don't give a shit because you have the luxury of doing so. if it was you or your family hanging upside down the slaughterhouse you'd certainly think differently.

humans are meat too people. why not eat the weak and sick? I mean we can if we are stronger.

I don't give a shit what others eat, not about the whole situation, I don't give shit about any sides arguments, because like already stated nobody will change someones opinion because one here said "duh animals die because of this", I'm pretty sure everyone knows this.

And going into the direction "we could eat humans, too" doesn't really strengthen your side anyways. But to be clear, cause Humans could be still more used as slaves, they have not enough meat that is usable to eat compared to animals iirc

Edit: Also Animals fed with anitbiotics is whole different beast of topic than just eating meat. My Parents and Family live countryside, I grew up eating meat from neighbours' animals.

 

[Jobbs]

Of course you can. You don't have to deal in absolutes that is not how the world goes.

No you can't, unless you can come up with some compelling argument as to why a pig's life has no value and their suffering doesn't matter but animals you deem cuter do. Can you justify why you're outraged when people come after baby seals with clubs but you don't give a shit when pigs are choking in their own vomit?

If you don't care about any of that, fine, we have nothing to discuss. But enough with the justifications and gymnastics

 

[zeemumu]

so are animals fed with antibiotics and all kinds of different shit.
and y'all have to worry about your arteries not getting clogged and stuff.

Yeah but getting kuru and dying isn't high up on my list of worries.


And it only took 6 years to find a possible logical counterpoint to A Modest Proposal. I feel slightly proud of myself.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

you only don't give a shit because you have the luxury of doing so. if it was you or your family hanging upside down the slaughterhouse you'd certainly think differently.

humans are meat too people. why not eat the weak and sick? I mean we can if we are stronger.

I've literally watched my dad cut off the heads of chickens and drain them of blood. I still ate that chicken all the same. Not because I don't care, but because it was what was on the table.

 

[IHaveIce]

No you can't, unless you can come up with some compelling argument as to why a pig's life has no value and their suffering doesn't matter but animals you deem cuter do. Can you justify why you're outraged when people come after baby seals with clubs but you don't give a shit when pigs are choking in their own vomit?

If you don't care about any of that, fine, we have nothing to discuss. But enough with the justifications and gymnastics

So I can't be against animal torture if I eat meat? Am I reading this right?

I'll wait some pages till this thread is again about some weird sex fantasies, this is too much for me lmao


Like I stated in my above post, the way of slaughtering animals or how they are treated by corporations is a different topic than eating no meat at all.

 

[Jobbs]

So I can't be against animal torture if I eat meat? Am I reading this right?

You can't be against animal torture while also eating the tortured animals. This is true.

What could be more true?

 

[marrec]

Is it alright if I recognize the dissonance and inherent hypocrisy in my meat eating position but am simply too comfortable in my current lifestyle to "fix" it?

There are numerous morally dubious positions that require a day to day blind eye in order for me to not have to introspect properly.

Edit:

Oh and we can't eat people because of prion diseases.

 

[trab pu kcip]

A large chunk of my family is in the agri business. I spent a large part of my youth in the fields. Tell me more about how I'm making up bullshit. Go on.


Here's the thing: meat eaters are at peace with the fact that heaps of mice were crushed by combine harvesters in order to make a loaf of bread. They simply don't care.

The "they do it too" argument isn't a particularly effective one when hurled by people claiming ethical superiority against people who simply accept the destruction of live for their nourishment.

Also, I happen to be very strongly for the increase in consumption of vegetables and the reduction of meat in our diets, both for ethical and sustainability reasons.

then you probaly also know what a lot of industrial field goods, crops and soy, are used for - feeding the animals you want to eat. this actually is a huuuuge part of how the produce is used (the stuff that goes into direct consumption or even Tofu burgers is pretty small compared to this) so following your logic meat eaters have twice the amount of blood on their hand but still blame the vegans for trying to reduce pain and suffering. like what's up with this reasoning of "this is bad but THIS is also bad so I don't have to care about the other thing that was bad"...you gotta start somewhere. tackle one thing then the other thing.
also the mice thing sounds a bit like blaming people for accidentally stepping on bucks. I'm sure mice are not intended to be hurt during the process of making crops. pigs and cows are meant to die. and because thisis an active decision it can be actively changed.

 

[zeemumu]

You can't be against animal torture while also eating the tortured animals. This is true.

What could be more true?

Wouldn't that also mean we'd all be cool with child labor if we go on that logic?

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Wouldn't that also mean we'd all be cool with child labor if we go on that logic?

Ding ding ding

 

[Misha]

Please though don't use the argument of "but other people are suffering and we don't do anything about them"

It comes up in every topic about ethics.
Other atrocities in the world doesn't negate a boycott of nestle, it doesn't diminish a protest of Trump, and it doesn't make fighting for LGBT rights less valid

 

[trab pu kcip]

Please though don't use the argument of "but other people are suffering and we don't do anything about them"

It comes up in every topic about ethics.
Other atrocities in the world doesn't negate a boycott of nestle, it doesn't diminish a protest of Trump, and it doesn't make fighting for LGBT rights less valid

thank you! <3

 

[Jobbs]

Wouldn't that also mean we'd all be cool with child labor if we go on that logic?

This is a labored argument. First of all, I don't know that there is much child labor involved in our products anymore. I thought this was mostly gone. If there is child labor, since you're bringing it up, show me.

But -- The greater point I've been making is that we can't live perfectly or get rid of all suffering. But that's not a compelling reason to put your foot on the gas and participate in the maximum suffering possible just because you think it tastes nice. You can very easily live without eating meat. It's not even hard.

So go eat your tasty meat, but please don't act outraged if someone clubs a baby seal or shoots a cat with a BB gun or whatever because you're choosing to participate in even greater animal suffering every day

 

[You Know Nothing]

Please though don't use the argument of "but other people are suffering and we don't do anything about them"

It comes up in every topic about ethics.
Other atrocities in the world doesn't negate a boycott of nestle, it doesn't diminish a protest of Trump, and it doesn't make fighting for LGBT rights less valid

Fallacy of relative privation.

 

[IHaveIce]

You can't be against animal torture while also eating the tortured animals. This is true.

What could be more true?

Alright, of course.


This is not about eating meat anymore it is for you about how animals are treated in slaughterhouses.
If I eat the meat of my parents neighbours' animals where I know when animals are slaughtered and how they are treated before hand I'm not allowed to be sad anymore for other animals getting abused. Got it.


Next topic.

 

[Vazra]

Sigh call me when this is over.

 

[marrec]

So go eat your tasty meat, but please don't act outraged if someone clubs a baby seal or shoots a cat with a BB gun or whatever because you're choosing to participate in even greater animal suffering every day

The outrage at individual atrocities isn't an act, nor is it any less righteous than your outrage at the meat industrial complex, most people just choose intellectual laziness over the outrages needed to support their comfort.

 

[Ceallach]

What if I want to eat people?

Only acceptable if you hunt and kill them yourself.


So here's a weird little anecdote that is related. A few weeks ago there was a local story about a woman being charged for beasiality and animal cruelty, she had apparently been breeding and defanging snakes for her own pleasure. Everyone was all up in arms. I like playing Devils advocate though, so I argued that legally, we have every precedent that animals are just property. We buy them, sell them, hunt them, kill them, eat them. They are property, aND really you should be allowed to do whatever you want with your property. Like guys who suck their dicks with vacuum cleaners. It's weird and kinda gross, but there is nothing illegal about and wrong is a subjective term. So likening she wants to shove snakes in her cunt, she has every right and I think she can beat the case.

 

[Jobbs]

The outrage at individual atrocities isn't an act, nor is it any less righteous than your outrage at the meat industrial complex, most people just choose intellectual laziness over the outrages needed to support their comfort.

I'm not just going through some moral high ground bullshit. I actually care about the pigs and cows and chickens. I've literally seen how they live and *I actually care*. It's not just me dicking off.

Imagine you're in a forum where it's standard and most of the forum members regularly shoot cats because it's their tradition or something, and you're alone trying to argue why that's wrong and their responses are "suffering is everywhere" and regard you as a nut who just wants to appear superior

I could give a shit about appearing superior. Maybe it's hard for you to believe but this is what I actually believe

 

[Misha]

I'm not just going through some moral high ground bullshit. I actually care about the pigs and cows and chickens. I've literally seen how they live and *I actually care*. It's not just me dicking off.

Imagine you're in a forum where it's standard and most of the forum members regularly shoot cats because it's their tradition or something, and you're alone trying to argue why that's wrong and their responses are "suffering is everywhere" and regard you as a nut who just wants to appear superior

I could give a shit about appearing superior. Maybe it's hard for you to believe but this is what I actually believe

I don't think he was accusing you of anything. Just looked like he was saying that people do that so they can live with themselves since they can't stop it.


Miiiight be a little past time to take a break

 

[Risgroo]

 

[zeemumu]

This is a labored argument. First of all, I don't know that there is much child labor involved in our products anymore. I thought this was mostly gone. If there is child labor, since you're bringing it up, show me.

But -- The greater point I've been making is that we can't live perfectly or get rid of all suffering. But that's not a compelling reason to put your foot on the gas and participate in the maximum suffering possible just because you think it tastes nice. You can very easily live without eating meat. It's not even hard.

So go eat your tasty meat, but please don't act outraged if someone clubs a baby seal or shoots a cat with a BB gun or whatever because you're choosing to participate in even greater animal suffering every day

It's a bit off-topic but here, I guess.

It's worth noting that the number has decreased by quite a bit but still prevalent.

I'm still gonna be outraged about the seal/cats.

 

[Jobbs]

I don't think he was accusing you of anything. Just looked like he was saying that people do that so they can live with themselves since they can't stop it.


Miiiight be a little past time to take a break

Oh I know he wasn't accusing me of anything. I was just continuing my overall thought on the matter

It's a bit off-topic but here, I guess.

It's worth noting that the number has decreased by quite a bit but still prevalent.

I'm still gonna be outraged about the seal/cats.

It's irrelevant to the topic, but if there are things I can do to minimize my contribution to child labor then I will do them

 

[trab pu kcip]

:repares faux-leather belt for all the ignorance::

 

[marrec]

I'm not just going through some moral high ground bullshit. I actually care about the pigs and cows and chickens. I've literally seen how they live and *I actually care*. It's not just me dicking off.

Imagine you're in a forum where it's standard and most of the forum members regularly shoot cats because it's their tradition or something, and you're alone trying to argue why that's wrong and their responses are "suffering is everywhere" and regard you as a nut who just wants to appear superior

I could give a shit about appearing superior. Maybe it's hard for you to believe but this is what I actually believe

No I know you aren't and I'm sorry if I made it seem I was accusing you of it, but I just want to remind you that people can still feel true and righteous indignation over individual atrocities against animals but feel numb or ignore all together the mass atrocities of our meat industry.

For example; I've told you about the pig I raised, named, loved like a pet, and then had slaughtered for meat at the optimal time. I was a pre-teen and at the time it just seemed like that was simply the end of the pig's life cycle. Just as we sometimes euthanize pets that are too sick and suffering to go on living, for the pig pet we slaughter and harvest their meat. That was my reality at the time.

Only later did I realize it was kind of an odd experience that most people would balk at. The most stalwart bacon eaters question my motivations when I tell the story "you didn't REALLY love that pig as a pet" or "you must have been very sad when he was killed" neither of which are true, because I've compartmentalized the two separate experiences in my brain so that my enjoyment of Merf is removed from the suffering he must have felt when dying.

Normal everyday meat eaters have to do the same right? Remove their enjoyment of a piece of bacon from the known and obvious suffering of the pig that gave it to him.

That's how we can feel white hot anger at someone abusing a cat but not at someone eating bacon.

It's a shitty situation we've built for ourselves but rather difficult to do anything about because it not only means changing your lifestyle but also removing that separation between enjoyment and suffering.

 

[You Know Nothing]

Basically.

I'm banning animal ethics discussions when I usurp the throne.