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[Freeza Under The Shower]

How do you make an interesting story with Superman that doesn't either involve kryponite or some sort of Sophie's choice? His motivations seem to be little more than "do good things and save my family". Or maybe I'm just not watching the right Superman material.

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS

There's no way this is describing BvS. If anything, BvS tells too much of a story. The movie could well do without the Abomination fight at the end, but everything else is a sublime epic and dissertation on existentialism in the form of a thriller masquerading as a superhero movie.

You know, for a moment there I really thought you were serious (my judgement becomes worse when I get angry, and oh boy does that movie -and its prequel, and the people defending either or- make me angry. Seriously, I should get a watch to monitor my heart rate or something).
I completely forgot you also posted in the UC thread to give this thing the shit it deserves. I lurked for a bit because I'm delusional enough to believe that maybe it could really be fixed (somehow). Kind of what happens when something is really terrible.

I know this because I bought Sonic 2006 at full price with a new Xbox360 and my brother had to tell me to stop hurting myself playing something that terrible. "but it can't be... maybe it gets better? *sob* " "put it down"
Thank god for Gears of War saving the day. I then traded in Sonic for Call of Duty 3... but it was a definite improvement in very basic 'how do I make thing?'.

 

[Transhuman]

See Ceallach gets it

 

[Jobbs]

You know, for a moment there I really thought you were serious (my judgement becomes worse when I get angry, and oh boy does that movie -and its prequel, and the people defending either or- make me angry. Seriously, I should get a watch to monitor my heart rate or something).

I feel reasonably sure that Lili likes BvS, just based on her long history of saying she likes it and watching it over and over

 

[Pau]

How do you make an interesting story with Superman that doesn't either involve kryponite or some sort of Sophie's choice? His motivations seem to be little more than "do good things and save my family". Or maybe I'm just not watching the right Superman material.

I tend to like Clark best as a supporting character and don't read his comics extensively so I'm not too much help for solo stories. I'd say All-Star Superman does interesting stuff with the character but it's a bit out there. (There's a movie version too.) I liked Clark's part in 52 (not to be confused with the new 52 reboot) where he's dealing with enjoying his life without powers/having to be a superhero and then knowing he has to pick the mantle up again. Justice League Unlimited does a good job of showing how Clark's antagonists aren't necessarily supervillains but institutions like the government trying to limit his agency (and perhaps rightly so). Of course it's superhero stuff so it ends with punches and fighting and of course Clark is gonna punch or think his way out of it, but so is Bruce and every other superhero.

I always see Clark as the person who doesn't particularly want to do what he's doing and would rather do other stuff, but he knows how selfish it would be considering how powerful he is. And he'll do it with a smile and make the most of it, only really showing those flaws to his wife. But it's not really "in" to have such a (superficially) optimistic protagonist. And I do think it's harder to write but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Have you seen Superman and the Elite?

 

[Pau]

Also Dark Knight Returns is trash.

 

[Transhuman]

Superman vs The Elite was so good I can almost admit to people I've watched it.

Also Dark Knight Returns is trash.

Animated or LA or comic book?

 

[Vazra]

Can I get a Vegan Senpai? I need enlightment on the shit I can and cannot eat besides the obvious and maybe combinations of shit I can eat cause Im clueless on what to do besides boiling some veggies and making salads.

 

[Jobbs]

Also Dark Knight Returns is trash.

Agreed! (edit: for some reason I read that as The Dark Knight Rises..)

Even if you have other problems with BvS I don't know how anyone can dislike Batfleck. Without a doubt the best on screen interpretation of Batman ever.

Even had a friggin' boss workout montage. (this is an example of some of the understated silliness that I enjoyed)

 

[liliththepale]

Freeza you're seriously not making any sense. I saw it three times in theater and I own a copy of the ultimate cut. I have at least half a dozen posts on this board that are just quotes from the movie. I almost like it more than The Dark Knight. I need you to understand that and also understand that it's a great story, just not one which fits everybody's tastes.

I tend to like Clark best as a supporting character and don't read his comics extensively so I'm not too much help for solo stories. I'd say All-Star Superman does interesting stuff with the character but it's a bit out there. (There's a movie version too.) I liked Clark's part in 52 (not to be confused with the new 52 reboot) where he's dealing with enjoying his life without powers/having to be a superhero and then knowing he has to pick the mantle up again. Justice League Unlimited does a good job of showing how Clark's antagonists aren't necessarily supervillains but institutions like the government trying to limit his agency (and perhaps rightly so). Of course it's superhero stuff so it ends with punches and fighting and of course Clark is gonna punch or think his way out of it, but so is Bruce and every other superhero.

I always see Clark as the person who doesn't particularly want to do what he's doing and would rather do other stuff, but he knows how selfish it would be considering how powerful he is. And he'll do it with a smile and make the most of it, only really showing those flaws to his wife. But it's not really "in" to have such a (superficially) optimistic protagonist. And I do think it's harder to write but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Have you seen Superman and the Elite?

Ah, that makes sense. I agree too, he works reasonably well as a supporting character.

 

[zeemumu]

Watching Sinister 2 for the first time. I can see why this one is bad. In the first one you could at least see how the kids pulled off those mursers. In this one it's just ridiculous. How did a kid manage to lift 3 adults onto crosses that he apparently built? How did they tie their entire family to a tree branch upside down? That would require at least two people to be able to do that.

There's no mystery to this one. We know what's gonna happen and you've shown Baghuul too many times for him to still be scary, and the zombie kids talk now and don't look like zombie kids anymore so they aren't scary either.

 

[Ceallach]

I currently have my three year old neice asleep on me and have to poop. This is a terrible dilemma. She is too cute to move

 

[FloatOn]

I hated the bloat of BvS. I agree that it tried to do too much and was only average at all of it. And that's being generous. Some serious casting choice errors too, Bryan Cranston would have made for a much better Lex than Jesse Eisenberg

 

[zeemumu]

The mystery of it is what made the first one scary. Not only have you blown all the scares in the first movie, you blew all the scares in the first 10 minutes of the sequel.

Oh yeah movie because I really thought there was a demon in that small tin cup.

Why is this guy even scared? He knows damn well baghuul can't kill him directly.

 

[Jobbs]

I hated the bloat of BvS. I agree that it tried to do too much and was only average at all of it. And that's being generous. Some serious casting choice errors too, Bryan Cranston would have made for a much better Lex than Jesse Eisenberg

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

When bae doesn't get the joke and u feel like ur losing ur touch

 

[Pau]

Animated or LA or comic book?

Didn't like the comic so didn't watch the cartoon. I understand it's place in the history of the genre, but I don't really enjoy anything it does with any of the characters.

Agreed! (edit: for some reason I read that as The Dark Knight Rises..)

Even if you have other problems with BvS I don't know how anyone can dislike Batfleck. Without a doubt the best on screen interpretation of Batman ever.

Even had a friggin' boss workout montage. (this is an example of some of the understated silliness that I enjoyed)

I think Batfleck still has the most potential of all the previous Bruce's but a lot of that is because we haven't even had a passable live action Bruce yet. I don't particularly like the violence but I can at least explain it with his son's death and Tim's (and Cass's) absences.

Kark kept saying how there would be a lifting scene and when he got a whole montage he was so fucking happy.

 

[liliththepale]

Bryan Cranston would have made for a much better Lex than Jesse Eisenberg

I don't know that that's true. We certainly would have gotten a much different Lex, and probably a version of Lex truer to his typical portrayal, but I enjoyed Eisenberg's Luthor more than anything else I've seen of the character. Snyder and co were very clearly trying to do something much different than normal, and I think it paid off.

I'm trying to picture Cranston doing line reads from BvS and it just doesn't work. They would have had to completely change the character, which then would have necessarily affected the artificial tension between Bruce and Clark. I mean Cranston did the unhinged sociopath bit already in Breaking Bad, but there it was too angry and impulsive, not charismatic and methodical.

Also I don't like Breaking Bad at all

When bae doesn't get the joke and u feel like ur losing ur touch

Get off GAF and go hang with her! She needs your undivided attention

 

[Vazra]

I guess I'll use google and hope for the best. Ciao

 

[zeemumu]

This is rivalling The Woman in Black 2 in terms of "why?" horror sequels. Not quite Blair Witch 2, though

 

[Jobbs]

Didn't like the comic so didn't watch the cartoon. I understand it's place in the history of the genre, but I don't really enjoy anything it does with any of the characters.


I think Batfleck still has the most potential of all the previous Bruce's but a lot of that is because we haven't even had a passable live action Bruce yet. I don't particularly like the violence but I can at least explain it with his son's death and Tim's (and Cass's) absences.

Kark kept saying how there would be a lifting scene and when he got a whole montage he was so fucking happy.

Yes! Kark gets it!

Also to reiterate, the warehouse scene was great. Batman was sooo Batman here, and it's refreshing after the horrible, horrible fight scenes in the Nolan movies

 

[Vazra]

This is rivalling The Woman in Black 2 in terms of "why?" horror sequels. Not quite Blair Witch 2, though

The Woman in Black was mediocre tho.

 

[Pau]

Yes! Kark gets it!

Also to reiterate, the warehouse scene was great. Batman was sooo Batman here, and it's refreshing after the horrible, horrible fight scenes in the Nolan movies

The only jarring thing was him using the guns. Different interpretation, but when you're used to the guy who won't even let his police officer son wear his gun in its holster in the Batcave or house, it takes you out of it.

 

[zeemumu]

The Woman in Black was mediocre tho.

It was decent, and far better than its sequel where she directly murders adults, completely breaking her own rules.

I don't know that that's true. We certainly would have gotten a much different Lex, and probably a version of Lex truer to his typical portrayal, but I enjoyed Eisenberg's Luthor more than anything else I've seen of the character. Snyder and co were very clearly trying to do something much different than normal, and I think it paid off.

I'm trying to picture Cranston doing line reads from BvS and it just doesn't work. They would have had to completely change the character, which then would have necessarily affected the artificial tension between Bruce and Clark. I mean Cranston did the unhinged sociopath bit already in Breaking Bad, but there it was too angry and impulsive, not charismatic and methodical.

Also I don't like Breaking Bad at all




Get off GAF and go hang with her! She needs your undivided attention

Eisenberg did a good performance but that wasn't Lex. You could put someone in a sombrero with a laser and give him the name Macbeth and say you're trying something new with the character but that doesn't mean that excuse holds up.

And I'm sure Cranston would make a fine bald smart guy secretly running a criminal empire

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Get off GAF and go hang with her! She needs your undivided attention

She's out of town until tomorrow

We're spending the weekend together though, so I will see her tomorrow afternoon

 

[Jobbs]

The only jarring thing was him using the guns. Different interpretation, but when you're used to the guy who won't even let his police officer son wear his gun in its holster in the Batcave or house, it takes you out of it.

In this scene he mostly just beats everyone up

I like it because he's using gadgets and his superior training and physical conditioning. He's not a god. He's vulnerable. He grunts in pain as the badguys shoot him and stab him. It's great.

There's no drama if things aren't the least bit hard.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Freeza you're seriously not making any sense. I saw it three times in theater and I own a copy of the ultimate cut. I have at least half a dozen posts on this board that are just quotes from the movie. I almost like it more than The Dark Knight. I need you to understand that and also understand that it's a great story, just not one which fits everybody's tastes.

Apparently I confused you with someone else then. Or I'm missing a vital component of sarcasm (or the joke) here, because describing it as "dissertation on existentialism" sounds like that to me.
Either way, this is where I get out.

 

[liliththepale]

And I'm sure Cranston would make a fine bald smart guy secretly running a criminal empire

I'm sorry but that is not something I want to watch. Generic old corporate businessman cliche is well past its prime. And again, that doesn't seem like the kind of person who would want to pit a fight between Batman and Superman.

Apparently I confused you with someone else then. Or I'm missing a vital component of sarcasm (or the joke) here, because describing it as "dissertation on existentialism" sounds like that to me.
Either way, this is where I get out.

Yeah, it's pretty clear we're not going to be able to convince each other. I mean I LOVE the movie and you hate it. What more is there to say? The movie isn't hurting anyone.

(also, I know I ran with that Jobbs is a girl joke for way too long, but I'm not joking at all here)

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Man its gonna suck though

Like she goes to school out of town too, pretty far away, so we're gonna have to long distance it for a good chunk of time

I don't wanna think about it I'm goin to bed

 

[zeemumu]

In this scene he mostly just beats everyone up

I like it because he's using gadgets and his superior training and physical conditioning. He's not a god. He's vulnerable. He grunts in pain as the badguys shoot him and stab him. It's great.

There's no drama if things aren't the least bit hard.

Can't really judge Supes by Batman's standards. Batman's a regular man working his way to the top of the ladde through sheer force of will. Supes was born at the top and has to figure out what that entails. I see it as struggling to get to the top and stay there vs. struggling to not get pulled down.

 

[DrM]

Fell asleep with TV on, of course I missed half of the game

It is Friday, finally.

 

[zeemumu]

I'm sorry but that is not something I want to watch. Generic old corporate businessman cliche is well past its prime. And again, that doesn't seem like the kind of person who would want to pit a fight between Batman and Superman.

Lex has always had his own reasons for that. Either Supes is getting in his way directly or he needs Supes displaced so he can be the god king. Pitting them against each other for the hell of it like this Lex did is more something that Joker would do. And that's what this Lex was. Diet Joker.

 

[zeemumu]

Man its gonna suck though

Like she goes to school out of town too, pretty far away, so we're gonna have to long distance it for a good chunk of time

I don't wanna think about it I'm goin to bed

This all seems vaguely familiar...as though I'm being shown the same events over again with slightly altered details...if that's the case then you'll be fine. But at the same time if that's the case then I'm not going to last long enough to make it to graduation.

 

[Pau]

Lex whould be like: "Batman you're a traitor to your species!" So trying to get Bats on his side before that happens makes sense in this context.

I like Lex not being able to even contemplate that Bruce is Batman because he thinks Bruce is the world's biggest idiot. Not very realistic but it amuses me.

 

[liliththepale]

Lex has always had his own reasons for that. Either Supes is getting in his way directly or he needs Supes displaced so he can be the god king. Pitting them against each other for the hell of it like this Lex did is more something that Joker would do. And that's what this Lex was. Diet Joker.

I'm pretty sure that was intentional. Take the most prolific villain from each franchise and merge them into one character. Because Supes could take out Joker pretty easily, and straight Lex isn't interesting to play off of Bruce either. So, with that in mind, better a manic Lex than a chief officer Joker.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I always found it hard to reconcile Batman and Superman existing in the same world. Superman villains are in an entirely different league from Batman villains, who are much more grounded. If they ever came to Gotham it would be totally screwed.

 

[zeemumu]

I'm pretty sure that was intentional. Take the most prolific villain from each franchise and merge them into one character. Because Supes could take out Joker pretty easily, and straight Lex isn't interesting to play off of Bruce either. So, with that in mind, better a manic Lex than a chief officer Joker.

Joker has screwed over Supes plenty of times. That's the plot of Injustice. I didn't want a pseudo Joker. We're already getting another Joker.

 

[FUME5]

Snowpiercer was retarded.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

okay more thing.

Also Dark Knight Returns is trash.

I don't know where I took it from, but somewhere during the run of Heroes I encountered the notion that Superman represents the state (you might think that's obvious, but it's not, since his character isn't a metaphor or anything -and fuck that space jesus crap) and that makes a lot more sense to me than 'just Superman'. Red Son added a lot to that by having him in a 'good intended villain' position, but ultimately he's either delusional in thinking he holds the leash or he's on someone else's. Which would a terrible thing if that was someone like Reagan. So that, combined with knowing Watchmen, made sense to me as a representation of who either of these characters are and what they care about even if the world around them has gone utterly mad, in part because these superhero's are around. Even Superman notes how the ridiculous the idea of Batman fighting him is during the actual fight, leading to a natural climax and Bruce making his point.

Spoiler

A human CAN beat Superman

. That's great, because we got characters and natural quests out of it. In terms of character-driven storytelling, that's the whole job.

I'll admit I enjoyed its political satire element the most. The sequence of passing on decisions in particular stands out because in Eye in the Sky (2015) they do the exact. same. thing. Yet that movie is all serious about its topic.
Alan Rickman looks like he's in serious pain during the whole thing though. Guess he held on as long as he could. Rest In Peace, Marvin.

 

[liliththepale]

Joker has screwed over Supes plenty of times. That's the plot of Injustice. I didn't want a pseudo Joker. We're already getting another Joker.

I'm not familiar with Injustice's plot, so I'll take your word for it. It's probably massively contrived like a lot of comic stories are.

That said, clearly we just want different things. I realize it's frustrating to not get what you want but I'm not going to pretend I want something else from this movie just because other people do. I hope you can appreciate that.

 

[Pau]

I'm pretty sure that was intentional. Take the most prolific villain from each franchise and merge them into one character. Because Supes could take out Joker pretty easily, and straight Lex isn't interesting to play off of Bruce either. So, with that in mind, better a manic Lex than a chief officer Joker.

Nah, straight Lex makes a very good foil to Bruce. They have very similar ideas and the same class status so it highlights Bruce's compassion and better qualities. Lex has acted as an antagonist to Bruce in his own comics without any mention of Superman and it works very well.

 

[jb1234]

I think I'm probably taking too much pleasure from making Dude #2 uncomfortable. I'm still upset at him from last weekend, I guess. He's like, "So, what are you doing today?" And I say, "Oh, I'm writing a song about death. I enjoy exploring darkness in music." No response from him. Haha.

(He's already complained a couple of times that things I've said are too bleak. If you can't handle knowing a depressed dude as a friend, the road to get off is just over there.)

 

[Jobbs]

I think I'm probably taking too much pleasure from making Dude #2 uncomfortable. I'm still upset at him from last weekend, I guess. He's like, "So, what are you doing today?" And I say, "Oh, I'm writing a song about death. I enjoy exploring darkness in music." No response from him. Haha.

(He's already complained a couple of times that things I've said are too bleak.)

So you're juggling multiple dudes right now, yes?

So crazy that you went from nothing going on to gay derek jeter in like a few months

Nah, straight Lex makes a very good foil to Bruce. They have very similar ideas and the same class status so it highlights Bruce's compassion and better qualities.

You have good insights

 

[jb1234]

So you're juggling multiple dudes right now, yes?

So crazy that you went from nothing going on to gay derek jeter in like a few months

Haha, really just two at this point. Dude #1 is a friend. #2 is a fuck buddy but I'm going to remove the sex from the equation because I'm not feeling the chemistry. He wants to cuddle and shit and I feel like I'm forcing that. #3 is definitely the full package but he lives so far away that I don't get to see him very often.

But yeah, life has been really, really strange in the last few months.

 

[liliththepale]

Nah, straight Lex makes a very good foil to Bruce. They have very similar ideas and the same class status so it highlights Bruce's compassion and better qualities. Lex has acted as an antagonist to Bruce in his own comics without any mention of Superman and it works very well.

Hmm, okay.

But BvS did all that too, and with mannerisms I enjoy more. In the movie, both Bruce and Lex are philanthropists and both of them are interested in kryptonite as a means to keep Superman at bay. Plus Lex was trying to pal up with Bruce acting like they're peers. "you should hop the bay more often and see what my R&D has cooked up. We're up to all sorts of no good" or whatever.

Haha, really just two at this point. Dude #1 is a friend. #2 is a fuck buddy but I'm going to remove the sex from the equation because I'm not feeling the chemistry. He wants to cuddle and shit and I feel like I'm forcing that. #3 is definitely the full package but he lives so far away that I don't get to see him very often.

But yeah, life has been really, really strange in the last few months.

Man, you gotta get a #4. The trifecta.

 

[Pau]

Hmm, okay.

But BvS did all that too, and with mannerisms I enjoy more. In the movie, both Bruce and Lex are philanthropists and both of them are interested in kryptonite as a means to keep Superman at bay. Plus Lex was trying to pal up with Bruce acting like they're peers. "you should hop the bay more often and see what my R&D has cooked up. We're up to all sorts of no good" or whatever.

Never said it didn't! I'm glad they took advantage of that. But it's not exclusive to BvS's Lex and very much part of the more traditional Lex characterization.

 

[jb1234]

Man, you gotta get a #4. The trifecta.

I did get a random message on GROWLr from some dude and I quote, "Hey, Indian guy here. Do you want to get to know me and meet?" But there's no picture so that's kinda a turn-off. The first sentence on his description is also, "I'm impeccably clean and anticipate the same" so we're probably not a good match.

 

[Pau]

You have good insights

Thank you! It'd be sad if I didn't considering the amount of my life I dedicated to reading and thinking about Batman.

(Seriously it's hard for me not to go off on a tangent about every little thing.)

 

[Clydefrog]

53 kills with reaper in Overwatch and a quintiple kill POTG

this fuckin character

 

[Jobbs]

Thank you! It'd be sad if I didn't considering the amount of my life I dedicated to reading and thinking about Batman.

(Seriously it's hard for me not to go off on a tangent about every little thing.)

That's what I like! You can seemingly be summoned by the mention of Batman and easily drawn into giving your ideas. It's so fun!

You're one of the reasons I'm now legitimately curious to read superhero comics (and a bit overwhelmed for some reason). I think I was overly dismissive of these types of comics in the past and I'm open to now seeing what I've been missing (I'm not a heavy comic reader but the ones I've read have mostly been of eastern origin).

53 kills with reaper in Overwatch and a quintiple kill POTG

this fuckin character

53? lie, lie, lie!

I did get a random message on GROWLr from some dude and I quote, "Hey, Indian guy here. Do you want to get to know me and meet?" But there's no picture so that's kinda a turn-off. The first sentence on his description is also, "I'm impeccably clean and anticipate the same" so we're probably not a good match.

kinda a turn off?

 

[liliththepale]

I did get a random message on GROWLr from some dude and I quote, "Hey, Indian guy here. Do you want to get to know me and meet?" But there's no picture so that's kinda a turn-off. The first sentence on his description is also, "I'm impeccably clean and anticipate the same" so we're probably not a good match.

Man those sites shouldn't even let you contact other people without a picture. If someone's not comfortable showing you what they look like, what're the odds they're comfortable meeting up and/or being seen with you? I must be missing something obvious.