CosmicGroinPull
Member
Why can't we have both.GIF
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Female Sexualization vs. Empowerment in Games - How do you determine which is which?
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
I think it's the reverse, that it's immaturity and insecurity that plagues those who want no discussion of these topics at all. What does it matter that you see a lot of flesh at a carnival? That's the context of the setting. Do skimpy outfits at a carnival in your real life experience mean a female warrior going out to kill in a battle wearing a chainmail bikini is entirely legitimate? Does that mean a female soldier in a scifi game should be wearing no armor to block bullets/lasers and instead just some skintight spandex?
The desire to see this discussion separated from your 'gaming discussion' is a desire to be insulated from words or opinions that you don't care about, which just speaks of apathy for even ideas that could contribute to elevating your gameplay experiences. Games like The Last of Us or Papers Please didn't happen because their creators ignored issues. Calling valid discussions about portrayals and character designs of females 'manufactured controversies' indicates a lack of connection to the world, and especially a lack of understanding that there is a large population of females out there with money in their pockets that can help convince publishers to fund and to continue funding good games. Or are you saying that people's opinions and concerns are all 'fake' anyway?
At the very least the people who are discussing have something to say; guys who don't want to see or hear about it have nothing to say at all.
1. Vocal community - CHECK
2. The horror of developers bending to the will of their customers - CHECK
3. Games are a business - CHECK
4. Sex sells - CHECK
5. Male demographic only wants sex - CHECK
6. You're all just puritanical / prudish - CHECK
7. All female characters should cover themselves up - CHECK
Seriously, no one is arguing or claiming anything of what you just wrote. Perhaps it would be best if you sit down, listen, and educate yourself before inserting yourself into a discussion or a conversation?
As an industry, when the vast majority of female characters are sexualized, you don't have the benefit of the doubt. His post about cultures that wear less clothes isn't valid in this discussion. Naked is not necessarily sexualized. Tight-fitting clothes, high heels, fish nets, sexy walking, etc. - these are the problems. We're not just talking about realistic portrayals of humans that wear little clothing.
The base rule for how I determine sexist or empowered is really simple...though it requires doing something that certain people on the internet seem incapable of doing.
Right, so you've got a character and she's dressed up sexy and you're worried it might be cheesecake. Alright, so what you have to do is take a look at the character: not just what she's wearing but who she is as a person. If you cannot determine who she is as a person, default to yes, it is sexist. Ok, done that?
Now, presuming you've discovered the character is a person beyond her skimpy outfit, what you have to do is pretend that you are her (go with me, go with me) you put yourself in the mindset of the character. You imagine the world through the lens of who that character is. You imagine yourself as them. In your mind, you become who they are inside and out. Alright, done that? Look down. Are you pleased about how you are currently dressed? If the answer is no, then you have a problem.
I realize empathy is not everyone's strong suit, so if you are incapable of that exercise, I'd say just err on the side of caution. Especially in the world of video games and comic books, if you're worried that something is sexist, it probably is. Sad, but true.
Right, so you've got a character and she's dressed up sexy and you're worried it might be cheesecake. Alright, so what you have to do is take a look at the character: not just what she's wearing but who she is as a person. If you cannot determine who she is as a person, default to yes, it is sexist. Ok, done that?
Now, presuming you've discovered the character is a person beyond her skimpy outfit, what you have to do is pretend that you are her (go with me, go with me) you put yourself in the mindset of the character. You imagine the world through the lens of who that character is. You imagine yourself as them. In your mind, you become who they are inside and out. Alright, done that? Look down. Are you pleased about how you are currently dressed? If the answer is no, then you have a problem.
I realize empathy is not everyone's strong suit, so if you are incapable of that exercise, I'd say just err on the side of caution. Especially in the world of video games and comic books, if you're worried that something is sexist, it probably is. Sad, but true.
intent is meaningless, results are all that matter. everyone intends to make good games but a lot of the industry's output still ends up sucking. should we no longer judge them for that failure?
also i'd wager you have no issue with criticism directed at gameplay systems. if that's true why are character designs so unimpeachable?
capitalism doesn't justify everything, and in this case myself and others are customers of the games industry and our needs and desires are just as valid as yours. why is it so wrong for us to ask for things that satisfy us?
this is a lazy argument that depends on a near total ignorance of people's actual statements. i am personally fine with sexualized characters so long as they are not objectified, and even if they were i wouldn't be as upset about it if they weren't the vast majority of female designs in games. give me variety.
I'm not a fan of the "practical" argument. These are games where people often wield magic, have super powers, can leap 20 feet in the air if they are normal 12 year olds, etc. Often times the universe these games are set in go our of their way to be impractical. Impractical designs in the name of "The Rule of Cool" or "The Rule of Sexy (for both genders)" is fine. I think whats more important is internal consistency within the world that doesn't betray suspension of disbelief. As an example, Bikini armor (and no option for anything else) isn't a problem because its impractical but more because it is often just gross & overbearing or makes no sense when compared to male armor (if they are given full armor in that game) within that game universe.
What bothers me most is the notion of what a "real woman" is supposed to look like. I've seen that phrase ascribed so many times that I find it really unsettling. Apparently only real women look like Elena from Uncharted. If a female character has C cup boobs she's not real, cause I guess women with above average boobs don't exist. Women have boobs, sometimes big boobs, get over it.
We definitely can. The OP is using the wrong terminology - what is meant is "objectification vs. empowerment", not sexualization and empowerment. Sexualization is fine, objectification isn't (well, to the degree that we are experiencing in popular entertainment).
No it's not. Making women welcome in gaming is immensely important, and overly sexualized characters are very isolating.
To me this sounds like you just admit that the character is over-sexualized and then you try to rationalize it.
Here's the thing, those cultures are wearing simple clothes because they don't put much thought into it because they don't normally wear much.
What fran wears? Is obviously very catered to a society that is used to clothes and designing them. It is designed to look sexy and accentuate the things our culture finds sexy. It is very obviously catered to us, not to represent a culture that doesn't see the need for clothes.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I feel like there's a fairly clear distinction between the two. Some characters are both a little empowering while also dressed ridiculously, but that doesn't really make them the same thing. Like can't you also have the empowering character without them being obviously sexualized to the point where it's offensive?
Is it fair to say she is 100% fetishization?
I bring up the example of "beach trips", predominantly featured in Japanese games; we get to see the cast of characters in revealing clothing, clearly the setup is for fanservice reasons, but that revealing clothing is 100% appropriate given the context- and its not like you have to force a character to want to go to the beach. Who doesn't love a relaxing day at the beach? Its both sexualized and honest to that games universe , hardly 100% sexualization or not sexualization. A range.
Unless we're just flat out seeing a character in a revealing, submissive position for no reason other than viewer satisfaction it is unfair to say what is or what is not appropriate to a story without taking everything into context. The Viera, and Fran, made me uncomfortable when I was first introduced to them, but that was as a viewer looking through my own cultural lens. Fran is an empowered, borderline amazonian (the strongest type of female figure) huntress and by no means submissive to anyone. Sure, her character designer might be grounded in some kind of fetishy fanservice (I would disagree because Akihiko Yoshida is generally extremely tasteful and grounded in his fantasy influences, the rest of the game and his portfolio would back this up), but the rest of the game's art design and the way the game treats her never acknowledges it as weird, and Fran herself seems very comfortable. She is also part of a universe FULL of half-naked beastfolk, not just bunnies but lizards and dog/donkey looking things, most of whom (we see) are male and all of whom seem to be divorced from sexual gaze.
To me it works. It totally depends on the context, and would not work for every other character in any other game.
i agree, but that doesn't invalidate my argument. shitty writing makes vaan kind of a bad character but that's about the end of it. shitty writing did the same for the viera, but in their case it also ended up being sexist.
if you want to make a thread complaining about games writing for more general criticism, go ahead. in this thread and in response to these posts my statements make sense.
Gladiolus is sexualized too and I don't see the problem.
Why is it sexist when the male viera are also wearing scant clothing?
I don't know what this post means. I'm assuming that's a character. But just because you find that specific character to be okay does not invalidate this entire conversation.
Here's the thing, those women chose to wear that. They wanted to wear that. That's the image they want to portray.
Characters in a game? Are designed specifically to market towards people. And when they are made to wear stuff like that, it's to make them objects to appeal to men. They are designed specifically just to be eye candy for the guys.
Do you not see the difference there?
Zoe
Member
People in this thread and the other have complained that Ashe shouldn't be wearing a miniskirt because it doesn't fit her personality.
So what would the appropriate personality be?
Zoe
Member
That reads as if characters should never be sexualized because it's impossible for them to choose to do so.
DrROBschiz
Member
Interesting post
Its compelling what the realities of commentary are and scary that I consider this a reasonable action in my mind
The problem is that there isn't any context to pull from. The game doesn't address why the Viera or Fran specifically dress in the fashion they do. Even the amazon comparison doesn't fly because, when they aren't depicted as being naked (which, at least they aren't then wearing highly impractical fantasy armor), they are depicted as wearing armor that would make sense.
Fran is otherwise a great character in a really great game, but her design is really not defensible. And it's even weirder because, as you said, the artist in question is usually muuuuuch better about this kind of thing.
Beelzebufo
Banned
In what context are you taking about? Because like in the picture of the dude in the OP, he's not wearing a lot of clothes but at least it makes some functional sense. You don't get the impression that it was just there to be hot if that makes sense.
Like I've seen people wearing a jacket without anything underneath in real life, I've never seen anything like those girls in the OP
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Intent is sometimes tricky. I've been learning a lot over the last few years and I'm starting to arrive at some, hmm, procedures for how I handle things like this: look at how various aspects of the media are working to generate an effect.
What's important is that this encompasses two areas: both what effect is actually being generated, and what effect the work seems to be trying to generate. Crucially this is not necessarily the same thing as "what the author/s intend the work to do" because a lot of this stuff can be subconscious.
What's important is that this encompasses two areas: both what effect is actually being generated, and what effect the work seems to be trying to generate. Crucially this is not necessarily the same thing as "what the author/s intend the work to do" because a lot of this stuff can be subconscious.
I don't think male viera have ever been in any of the games, though correct me if I'm wrong.
They shouldn't be if there isn't a good in story reason for it (as some one pointed out, some animes where the characters go to a beach). It's very disruptive when they are like that and it's obvious just to be fanservice to the guys. And hell, if they want to do fanservice to both, I admit it would bug me less. But still, I prefer a story that actually makes sense and doesn't have disruptive elements like that that are obviously designed for our culture, not theirs. It really does break my immersion to see stuff like that (as I said, personality wise I liked Fran but it bugged me the whole story how she was designed as it was obviously a design so that guys could drool at her).
At the very least, come up with a good explanation (Even if you do just want to throw in fan service). Not just throw it in there and make it obvious all it is there for is fan service.
do male viera actually appear in any games? genuinely curious
It's the male character in the OP.
Only if you're dishonest. If you're actively lying to yourself in order to justify this sort of thing you've got bigger problems than just not being able to tell one from the other. Literally the only time I've run this exercise through my mind when questioning this and come out with the thumbs up was Bayonetta. Everyone else has failed the test thus far.
And like I said, if you really just cannot tell the difference, just default to yes. It's more reasonable to assume something like this is problematic than not, especially if you're in a position to do something about it (like the member of a creative team, for example.)
Zoe
Member
It's fanservice for women too. I always had Fran as my main.
Do people feel really clever doing this shit? Honest question.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I feel like it's more of an obligation.
Hmm, dunno. I had assumed so (been a while since i played it) but now that you mention it all the google images for male vierra are fan art.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Well okay so this is kind of the thing about fiction in general: no characters ever actually choose to do anything, sexuality related or not. But in good fiction you're able to kind of forget that, to lose yourself in the "fantasy". The problem, and this isn't exclusive to sexuality either but its where it most often rears its head, is when things are handled clumsily and we're yanked out of that.
"Suspension of disbelief" basically
Pretty sure they never show up and GIS seems to be supporting me on this one.
That they live separately and they are super secretive is all the game ever really says about them.
I did too, cause I liked her character/personality.
But... that doesn't really refute my point. I said it would bug me less but I'd prefer they just don't do it or at the very least come up with a good explanation so it actually fits within the story and doesn't stand out. It really does mess with my immersion when they do obvious fan service.
I thought there were no male Veira, or it was like a ganondorf situation where there's one every 50 years or something.
I haven't played FF12 in years.
Eh, only if you're being reductive about the conversation. I like DOA and Tecmo, I'm not going to stand here and try to defend the costume choices Team Ninja has gone with for DOA5.
Whenever the topic of sexualized male characters comes up it's always immediately slapped down and discredited, "male power fantasy."
"Well male figures are also unrealistic and sexualized. There's an entire medium that consists almost exclusively of incredibly handsome, charming, and impossibly muscular men wearing skin-tight spandex."
"Oh that doesn't count, that's a male power fantasy not sexualization."
Okay. I can see where that's coming from. But what about female characters like Lara Croft?
"Lara Croft is a horribly sexist character. Her proportions are impossible and she's just there to be oggled."
Yeah Lara Croft has a very sexy design, but that's not all there is to her. We've seen throughout an entire series that Lara is strong, tough, intelligent, etc. How is Lara not a female power fantasy? Are they not allowed to have sex appeal?
"Well male figures are also unrealistic and sexualized. There's an entire medium that consists almost exclusively of incredibly handsome, charming, and impossibly muscular men wearing skin-tight spandex."
"Oh that doesn't count, that's a male power fantasy not sexualization."
Okay. I can see where that's coming from. But what about female characters like Lara Croft?
"Lara Croft is a horribly sexist character. Her proportions are impossible and she's just there to be oggled."
Yeah Lara Croft has a very sexy design, but that's not all there is to her. We've seen throughout an entire series that Lara is strong, tough, intelligent, etc. How is Lara not a female power fantasy? Are they not allowed to have sex appeal?
i can only speak from the games i've played but in ffxii and the tactics games the viera are basically the definition of fanservice
saying "oh yeah male viera exist and dress in scanty clothes too" seems like shitty window dressing
To be fair, Lara's design has gotten MUCH better across her evolution over the years.
To be fair, their tribe does exist in a tropical rainforest.
The question is, why do they STILL dress that way when they're, you know, in the snowy mountains?
captmorgan
Banned
I think we are going to have to figure out the what a "female power fantasy" is first.
because according to various gaf topics, any character regardless of sex, clothes,job is always a male power fantasy of some sort.
because according to various gaf topics, any character regardless of sex, clothes,job is always a male power fantasy of some sort.