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[Beelzebufo]

I think this might be the best way to explain to guys sexualization in video games locks women out. A lot of guys on the interweb as you said hate those two clowns, but I don't think those that hate them have ever thought about why they hate them, other than "cuz twilight".

It would be nice if someone created something of an Edward and Jacob test. Where people look at sexualize male characters and critic them as a learning too as to why objectification is bad.

Didn't most people hate Twilight in the first place though because it made vampires sparkly? Or like it made vampires sexy instead of scary? I always thought that was the reason people disliked it for the most part.

Anything can be perceived as harmful by anyone. My empathy can only extend so far when people start making claims that media is damaging without any proof or scientifically-backed evidence.

Case in point

I'm sorry, can you explain? If people don't like something, they shouldn't buy it, like you said. So if enough people don't like something, it won't sell as well, right? What does that have anything to do with something being perceived as harmful? I think you quoted the wrong post.

And of course media is damaging. Media is influential, and if that influence is a negative one I would say it's damaging. Why do you think propaganda films exist?

 

[Htown]

I spend most of my time not caring, to be honest.

Having an opinion that isn't agreeing with whatever SJW hashtag is going around is generally going to result in everyone telling you how skewed your viewpoint and that the way you see the world will never change because you are a misogynistic douchebag.

All because you think Samus wearing high heels wasn't a life altering event.

For someone who doesn't care you're sure spending a lot of energy being hyper-defensive over somebody not liking a female character design in a game.

 

[Fawoosh]

When you go mountain climbing and tomb raiding, you're not going to wear hot pants, your legs will get scratched everywhere. In personality Lara Croft may be a 'power fantasy for women', but unquestionably her physical design is for the prurient interests of men.

To be fair, I wouldn't pick a leotard for crime fighting either.

What about new Lara? I really like her 2013 design

I like the new LOOK, but not the new Lara. I get that it was her origin story (that we seem to be still doing for some reason), but I liked Lara a lot more when she didn't cry so much.

Let's say every tough bald space marine in gaming became a broody sparkling vampire overnight.

Spoiler

Eh.

 

[Kinsei]

Didn't most people hate Twilight in the first place though because it made vampires sparkly? Or like it made vampires sexy instead of scary? I always thought that was the reason people disliked it for the most part.

So just like female vampires?

 

[Not]

Eh.

To be fair, Japan.

 

[Mesoian]

Anything can be perceived as harmful by anyone. My empathy can only extend so far when people start making claims that media is damaging without any proof or scientifically-backed evidence.

Which is fine, but that's the conversation. You're rarely going to find the idea of societal shifts splayed in front of you in a scientific format, that's not how it works most of the time (at least not yet). What we have are people who look at Disney Princesses or Maxim or MTV or whathaveyou and discuss whether or not, for example, the ideal of chasing an unrealistic ideal of beauty is healthy for young girls and women, and if so, what should be done. It's pretty hard to deny this is happening when the number one series for the past 3 years on basic television have stars having "less than ideal" body types.

Honestly, if you waited for scientific evidence before ever having a conversation, Weed would still be illegal, pregnant women would still be encouraged to drink and smoke and driving under the influence of prescription drugs would probably still be endorsed. There's nothing wrong with looking at a situation from a top down level and going "esh ein minuten bitte...!"

To be fair, Japan.

90% of this thread in a nutshell.

 

[Nairume]

Didn't most people hate Twilight in the first place though because it made vampires sparkly? Or like it made vampires sexy instead of scary? I always thought that was the reason people disliked it for the most part.

Vampires have long been a sexualized creature. It's less that they became sexy instead of scary, and more that they are weren't scary and sexy.

 

[veloxStrix]

For someone who doesn't care you're sure spending a lot of energy being hyper-defensive over somebody not liking a female character design in a game.

TIL a lot of energy is typing a paragraph.

I said, "I don't care". In regards to whether something is empowerment or sexualization in a video game. Which, in case you forget, is the topic which is brought to bear in the original post.

What I do care about is the circle jerk reaction to anyone who has any opinion that disagrees with the common SJW viewpoint.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Vampires have long been a sexualized creature. It's less that they became sexy instead of scary, and more that they are weren't scary and sexy.

Yeah, that's a good point. But that's the same thing, right? It focused more on the sexualization stuff, which people didn't like? I don't know much about Twilight haha.

Like isn't making vampires misunderstood cassanovas pandering to a teenage girl audience in the same way those characters in the OP are pandering to a teenage boy audience?

 

[Mesoian]

Vampires have long been a sexualized creature. It's less that they became sexy instead of scary, and more that they are weren't scary and sexy.

Precisely. The people who actually fans of vampire lore hated it because it made vampires into good, misunderstood people who wanted nothing more than to fall in love and hide away from the world.

Which is not what vampires have EVER been. It turned vampires into silly teenagers.

Yeah, that's a good point. But that's the same thing, right? It focused more on the sexualization stuff, which people didn't like? I don't know much about Twilight haha.

Real talk: Watch the Rifftrax of the first movie. You'll see why people hate that movie/book REAL quick. The idea of vampires factors into it very little.

 

[Amir0x]

TIL a lot of energy is typing a paragraph.

I said, "I don't care". In regards to whether something is empowerment or sexualization in a video game. Which, in case you forget, is the topic which is brought to bear in the original post.

What I do care about is the circle jerk reaction to anyone who has any opinion that disagrees with the common SJW viewpoint.

Can you please stop saying SJW? It reduces any point you think you're making and makes the rest of us feel like you should be relegated to certain Gator-related forums. This is not the thread for that nonsense.

 

[z3phon]

Serious question I can understand how many women can feel about oversexualized female characters in games but then what confuses me is when I see so many female cosplayers who dress up in the exact same way.
I admit I am pretty ignorant towards this matter, since It doesnt effect me but I don't know if I could take someone seriously if they complain about the new Lara Croft and then I look at the majority of the female cosplayers and how they are dressed.

Not trying to offend anyone, just want to understand the logic to why it is bad in games but ok when women do it when cosplaying.

 

[Pimpwerx]

This sounds like a Catch-22. People can't intelligently criticize something without playing it, but if they play it they are complicit and hypocrits if they complain?

Besides, there's more to games than just the design of one character. Mass Effect 2 is a top-five all-time game to me but I can still voice my displeasure with Samara's character model. If that sends the message that designs don't have to change for me to buy the game then so be it, because I will indeed continue to buy Mass Effect games. But my complaint will be made hoping a change is made simply because it's more tasteful and gives more integrity to the story, even if it comes at a potential highly hypothetical (and minor) loss of sales.

If you continue to fund these projects by giving them money, then you haven't given them any incentive to change that formula. It's not a catch-22, it's dollars and sense. I mean, this is why boycotts exist, because actions speak louder than words.

Around 2001, gas prices shot up to $1.50/gallon, which was close to a 50% spike where I live. At the time, an email went around suggesting the boycott of Exxon/Mobil. I boycotted that company for damn near 8 years before finally giving in. What's important is that I tried. I inconvenienced myself a little to try and let my dollars speak. Exxon saw record profits. LOL. That's the market speaking louder than me, but at least I tried.

If you're giving money to the company you see as a problem, then you are now part of the problem. There's no way around that. If these character designs are really an issue, don't buy the game. Vote with your dollars. If the problem isn't a large enough deterrence to you purchasing the game, then maybe I'm not off base in suggesting that the social issues should be separated from the game threads, as they distort the gaming threads disproportionate to their actual relevance. PEACE.

 

[jackissocool]

Here's the thing, those cultures are wearing simple clothes because they don't put much thought into it because they don't normally wear much.

What fran wears? Is obviously very catered to a society that is used to clothes and designing them. It is designed to look sexy and accentuate the things our culture finds sexy. It is very obviously catered to us, not to represent a culture that doesn't see the need for clothes.

Right, I think Fran is pretty obviously sexualized for the purpose of the make gaze. But games should be able to explore all sorts of cultures.

EDIT: Thinking about it, though, I take a lot of issue with your idea that peoples who don't wear much don't put thought into their clothes. That's very culturally demeaning, even if you don't realize. Their clothing has just as much thought and significance as any other cultures. They're not simpletons who don't realize what they're doing. Clothes are an essential part of any culture.

 

[Verger]

I'm sorry, can you explain? If people don't like something, they shouldn't buy it, like you said. So if enough people don't like something, it won't sell as well, right? What does that have anything to do with something being perceived as harmful? I think you quoted the wrong post.

Yes, and the games/designs/art people are railing against in this thread sell, and sell very well as research has shown.

If you do not like it, do not buy it and move on to the next. Why single out every instance of "sexual imagery" and try to categorize it into neat packages when it's just likely that the artists and designers felt "it looks cool". Because most artists draw what they like.

 

[Arkaerial]

I like Fran as a character but her character design was not one I liked much. I'll just put down a few reasons why.

- Bunny girl: I never really like crossbreeding humans with animals. It usually turns into something like a playboy bunny styled character. If you want a bunny design look at Alice from Bloody Roar.

- Heels: seriously we are going to put heels on people that live in the middle of the jungle.

- leather thong: look at any tribal group it's either nothing or just some cloth wrapped around the waist and chest.

- random straps of leather tied to legs/arms: like to see that stay up when running around and flexing muscles...in the jungle with heels.

 

[veloxStrix]

Can you please stop saying SJW? It reduces any point you think you're making and makes the rest of us feel like you should be relegated to certain Gator-related forums. This is not the thread for that nonsense.

I'm sorry. Is there another term for it that is more friendly and acceptable? Like, champion of the people or something?

 

[Palculator]

It's about creative intent. Batman wasn't created with any intent to make him titillating to a female audience. He was created to be essentially the Best Man on Earth. So, male power fantasy. Because I dunno about you, but I wouldn't mind being the best man on earth. If he gets some ladies going, that's awesome for them, but that's not what he was created to do.

Lara Croft (at least in her classic PSX incarnation) was crafted, at least in part, to be titillating to what was viewed as being a male-dominated audience.

Look at the kneejerk reactions dudes have to the Twilight guys. That's a much better comparison than Batman. The creative intent with Edward and Jacob, at least in part, is to be titillating to a female-dominated audience. Most dudes hate the shit out of those characters. With good reason. Imagine having that kneejerk reaction to, like, 80% of all dudes in videogames. Let's say every tough bald space marine in gaming became a broody sparkling vampire overnight. And having the dominant culture tell you that you just have to fucking suck it up if you want to play at all. That's just how it is kid, we're not changing for you. Doesn't really seem fair, does it?

Do you really care if there's more to Edward than being a sexy, sparkly vampire if he continues to be one? Dunno about you, but for me the answer is no. I shouldn't be expected to just look past that bullshit and neither should women in the case of Lara Croft.

How do you deal with characters whose intended interpretation is not known? Do you just assume a muscular man is meant to be a power fantasy in the absence of the author denying it and dismiss the work based on your assumptions about the author? Would you deny women the feeling of empowerment from a character you know to be an oversexualized object for male gratification?

Authorial intent should irrelevant in this equation and supplemental material at best. In the end all that matters is the result of an author's intention, not whatever intention drove the process of creation. Just like you won't excuse a bad game game because the author meant for it to be good, you shouldn't dismiss a good character because the author had bad intentions.

 

[Kinsei]

Precisely. The people who actually fans of vampire lore hated it because it made vampires into good, misunderstood people who wanted nothing more than to fall in love and hide away from the world.

Which is not what vampires have EVER been. It turned vampires into silly teenagers.



Real talk: Watch the Rifftrax of the first movie. You'll see why people hate that movie/book REAL quick. The idea of vampires factors into it very little.

Stories about vampires rejecting their nature and trying to live normal lives have been around for a really long time.

Yes the movies are terrible, but I'm willing to bet the majority of people that complain about it Edwrd and Jacob don't really really care about that.

 

[Mesoian]

Serious question I can understand how many women can feel about oversexualized female characters in games but then what confuses me is when I see so many female cosplayers who dress up in the exact same way.
I admit I am pretty ignorant towards this matter, since It doesnt effect me but I don't know if I could take someone seriously if they complain about the new Lara Croft and then I look at the majority of the female cosplayers and how they are dressed.

Not trying to offend anyone, just want to understand the logic to why it is bad in games but ok when women do it when cosplaying.

Because again, it's not all women who feel this way. And even with women who cosplay skimpy characters, if you ask them, most of them will say that while they love "skimpy character A", they would still like more interesting, more three dimensional characters to be made instead of characters who are defined by how little their wearing.

Because really, Rikku from FFX is not just a walking talking bikini. Morrigan is not just a pair of breasts attached to batwings. There are good characters who are sexy AND interesting, characters who are titillation but are more than mere window dressing.

Stories about vampires rejecting their nature and trying to live normal lives have been around for a really long time.

Yes, and those stories are usually tragedies, because they serve as allegory for not being able to chance the nature of one's true self. Twilight fails at this because everyone basically gets what they want while losing nothing because reasons.

I don't want to make this thread about why Twilight is dumb though.

 

[Wiktor]

Anything even slightly bit sexy will be branded by some people as sexist. I think the happy balance is to ask yourself if a real woman would wear that. Plus objectification is harder to pull off if you make the women in games be actual characters instead of just objects.

 

[The Technomancer]

Vampires have long been a sexualized creature. It's less that they became sexy instead of scary, and more that they are weren't scary and sexy.

Can I go off on a bit of a tangent here? I'm kind of sick of the current "sympathetic monster" trend in vampires lately. These days its all "vampirism as a metaphor for addiction" with tormented individuals struggling with their cravings or whatever. When can we get back to "vampires as a metaphor for the parasitic aristocracy"? Give me more capricious and cruel high society please

 

[Beelzebufo]

Yes, and the games/designs/art people are railing against in this thread sell, and sell very well as research has shown.

If you do not like it, do not buy it and move on to the next. Why single out every instance of "sexual imagery" and try to categorize it into neat packages when it's just likely that the artists and designers felt "it looks cool". Because most artists draw what they like.

I'm still not quite sure what you're trying to say. We seem to be agreeing except on one fact: That you think people should only be able to show their displeasure for something by not buying it. Is that what you're saying?

 

[axisofweevils]

There is a really good article about this here. It refers to comic books rather than games, but a lot of the same stuff applies. https://geekessays.wordpress.com/2014/09/16/sexiness-vs-objectification/

 

[Amir0x]

I'm sorry. Is there another term for it that is more friendly and acceptable? Like, champion of the people or something?

How about simply describing the action you think people are doing wrong instead of trying to put a label you feel is negative on them? There is no SJW conspiracy or cabal, so a little maturity is required here.

 

[Nairume]

TIL a lot of energy is typing a paragraph.

I said, "I don't care". In regards to whether something is empowerment or sexualization in a video game. Which, in case you forget, is the topic which is brought to bear in the original post.

What I do care about is the circle jerk reaction to anyone who has any opinion that disagrees with the common SJW viewpoint.

You seem to care enough to want to respond to a discussion you don't care about.

 

[Ophelion]

How do you deal with characters whose intended interpretation is not known? Do you just assume a muscular man is meant to be a power fantasy in the absence of the author denying it and dismiss the work based on your assumptions about the author? Would you deny women the feeling of empowerment from a character you know to be an oversexualized object for male gratification?

Authorial intent should irrelevant in this equation and supplemental material at best. In the end all that matters is the result of an author's intention, not whatever intention drove the process of creation. Just like you won't excuse a bad game game because the author meant for it to be good, you shouldn't dismiss a good character because the author had bad intentions.

"Perceived Creative Intent" would've been a better choice of words. You're right. It's about how the audience perceives what the character means in a creative work, regardless of what the creator wanted. The rest of my argument still stands though.

 

[Palculator]

Anything even slightly bit sexy will be branded by some people as sexist. I think the happy balance is to ask yourself if a real woman would wear that. Plus objectification is harder to pull off if you make the women in games be actual characters instead of just objects.

That's an interesting point. I rarely see EVA from MGS3 being accused of being just a sex object and fan service, even though the game has literally prompts to stare at her tits. But at the same time she's an actual character with agency of her own and her sexualization is even an important part of the plot.

 

[Mesoian]

I'm sorry. Is there another term for it that is more friendly and acceptable? Like, champion of the people or something?

Don't rely on pejoratives to make your point. It only serves to muddy the meaning of the words your trying to get across.

 

[Nairume]

Can I go off on a bit of a tangent here? I'm kind of sick of the current "sympathetic monster" trend in vampires lately. These days its all "vampirism as a metaphor for addiction" with tormented individuals struggling with their cravings or whatever. When can we get back to "vampires as a metaphor for the parasitic aristocracy"? Give me more capricious and cruel high society please

Oh totes.

For all the problems with the incredibly boring Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter, having vampires as a bunch of entitled rich white southern landowners was hilarious and awesome.

 

[Verger]

I'm still not quite sure what you're trying to say. We seem to be agreeing except on one fact: That you think people should only be able to show their displeasure for something by not buying it. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, and it's more in line with the subtle undertones of the arguments I'm seeing that "these things should not be made" (yes no one has said those exact words, but I detect the hints of that when people start using language as "dangerous" and "damaging" or making moral judgements to describe media), which I will vehemently disagree with.

 

[Morokh]

Simple rule, if she's a fighter and wears high heels 99% of the time it's an overly sexualized character.

 

[Ralemont]

If you're giving money to the company you see as a problem, then you are now part of the problem. There's no way around that. If these character designs are really an issue, don't buy the game. Vote with your dollars. If the problem isn't a large enough deterrence to you purchasing the game, then maybe I'm not off base in suggesting that the social issues should be separated from the game threads, as they distort the gaming threads disproportionate to their actual relevance. PEACE.

Well, I do. Like I said, for games where it's not a big deal but still bothersome, like ME2, it's not going to affect my purchase in any way. But there are some companies that are genuinely interested in the opinions of their fans (ie people who buy their games) concerning how to improve representation. For example: Naughty Dog and BioWare. These companies will have my money anyway but still engage in discussion about gender and sexuality issues and always look to improve, not for dollars but because it's the right thing to do. Since there is clearly precedent for it being done, I'll continue to point to these examples whenever someone starts bringing up "sex sells" as an excuse not to improve their stories.

For games like Conception II where the whole game becomes gross by association of its sexual content, I don't buy it. I guess that's a boycott, though I've never made vocal my reason for not buying it; I just played its demo, grimaced, and never gave it a second look.

As for how much the issue is discussed, people will discuss what is interesting to discuss. I get that in a thread where people are trying to discuss gameplay mechanics, a discussion about problematic morals (just for example) may annoy some. But that's the price you pay for engaging in a forum where people have different things they want to discuss.

For the thread that spawned this thread, the title was about a new female character being introduced, and given the appearance was all we had, I think discussing said appearance is perfectly fine and rational.

 

[jackissocool]

How about simply describing the action you think people are doing wrong instead of trying to put a label you feel is negative on them? There is no SJW conspiracy or cabal, so a little maturity is required here.

Personally I like being called an SJW. Like, fuck yeah I want to be a warrior for social justice.

 

[UrbanRats]

Can I go off on a bit of a tangent here? I'm kind of sick of the current "sympathetic monster" trend in vampires lately. These days its all "vampirism as a metaphor for addiction" with tormented individuals struggling with their cravings or whatever. When can we get back to "vampires as a metaphor for the parasitic aristocracy"? Give me more capricious and cruel high society please

I would watch Salò where the fascists are all vampires.

 

[Mesoian]

Yes, and it's more in line with the subtle undertones of the arguments I'm seeing that "these things should not be made" (yes no one has said those exact words, but I detect the hints of that when people start using language as "dangerous" and "damaging" or making moral judgements to describe media), which I will vehemently disagree with.

I don't think that it's people think these things shouldn't be made, but people certainly wish that they were different, and I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that. That's feedback, you know?

Simple rule, if she's a fighter and wears high heels 99% of the time it's an overly sexualized character.

Or someone has simply never walked in high heels.

All artists should have to walk in high heels for a day. If that happened, we would see a 95% decrease in high heels in artwork.

Personally I like being called an SJW. Like, fuck yeah I want to be a warrior for social justice.

It's really hard to take people who use that stuff, either positive or negatively, seriously. I liken it to people who use "Baka" in regular conversation.

 

[pantsmith]

Simple rule, if she's a fighter and wears high heels 99% of the time it's an overly sexualized character.

Or someone has simply never walked in high heels.

All artists should have to walk in high heels for a day. If that happened, we would see a 95% decrease in high heels in artwork.

Chell, who is generally considered a great example of a female character handled well, spends the entire game wearing "heels". If we accept that they serve a function in her fictional universe, whos to say that other heels cant work in other fictional universes?

For instance Bayonettas not only make her taller, play up her confidence and fit a wardrobe I imagine her picking for herself, but they are also weapons. I couldnt fight in heels, but the fact that Bayonetta does is telling of how awesome she is.

 

[aeolist]

Chell, who is generally considered a great example of a female character handled well, spends the entire game wearing "heels". If we accept that they serve a function in her fictional universe, whos to say that other heels cant work in other fictional universes?

that's a huge fucking stretch if i ever saw one, especially considering that it's pretty hard to directly see chell in portal

 

[Palculator]

that's a huge fucking stretch if i ever saw one, especially considering that it's pretty hard to directly see chell in portal

No? It takes literally two clicks.

 

[JayTapp]

This may be true. But, at the end of the day there are two sides to this question. One is "How do women feel about it." And on the other, "How do men feel about it."

Asking women only answers our side of question.

Personally, I find that the rhetoric of "what constitutes empowerment" is kind of messed up.

Take Bayonetta. It's somewhat popular to insinuate that she is "empowered" and sexual simply because A) she's the protagonist, and B) she dresses a certain way and has certain mannerisms. But, asking women will only answer if they themselves identify with her brand of sexuality. For me, I do not. I think the problem being that she is all image and no substance when it comes to her sexuality. She has no history of sexuality (as far as character development), she doesn't actually talk about sex, she doesn't have sex. It's all just a show for the camera, somewhat like a porn image. Sure the woman probably consents to it, and thus has some agency. But, if i was a man i sure wouldn't be fooled into thinking this is how all women identify with sexual expression, and it certainly isn't for women.

I like Zero from Drakengard in this regard. She talks about sex. She has sex. But she isn't really ever presented for the camera in a lurid fashion like bayonetta is. It's the complete opposite of Bayonetta. Instead of looking at a picture of a naked woman (an inherently sexual act in itself). It's more akin to just asking a woman about sex. The responses are widely variable, less staged, probably a lot more raw and human by contrast.

I think the issue here is a difference between sexuality and sexualization. Both are sexual, but one is selling sex as an image (bayonetta) and one has an actual sexuality (Zero).

Not to say i don't enjoy "sexy" characters. But i often laugh at the absurdity about how DOA is derided as having sexualized women, but Bayonetta gets a pass for doing the same thing for arbitrary reasons. Both have women as protagonists that are completely empowered and "technically" choose to wear whatever sexy gear the like. But one of those games is held above the other simply due to marketing and a random roll of public opinion dice.

Indeed Bayonetta is sacred and Platinum can do no wrong is a common theme.

Personally I really don't mind all this stuff. If people don't like it don't buy it. It's easy. It's the same thing happened to Hustler in the 1970s, when people who hated larry flint would fight with him so he could maintain freedom of speech. So not my problem someone is offended. You will always find tons of peopel offended for no reason if you keep looking. The less the government tells you what is right and wrong, what you can play and watch, everyone's the better.

Let people decide what's good for them and let people who like or don't care about sexualization and violence play and watch what they want. Do we want porn banned? Horror movies?
So what's up with this video game censorship?

OF COURSE i'm not talking letting everything go, stuff like NAZI, KKK blatant racism and hate propaganda, but we are far from this stuff with a debate on how we draw a cartoon in a videogame.

 

[Vice]

Yeah, that's a good point. But that's the same thing, right? It focused more on the sexualization stuff, which people didn't like? I don't know much about Twilight haha.

Like isn't making vampires misunderstood cassanovas pandering to a teenage girl audience in the same way those characters in the OP are pandering to a teenage boy audience?

People didn't like Twilight because it was toward the bottom of the barrel for vampire romance stuff. Them being misunderstood and sexy is as old as dirt. It's more execution and marketing as the issue for that.

 

[Clefargle]

Well, then there really is no side that the argument favours based on the evidence. We don't know the inner workings of a creator's mind when creating a design. Like the mechanic in FFXV, maybe since it's a Miami like setting she wants to make a little breathing room to cool out and she doesn't care if she shows off a little? Or maybe the designers want men to gaze at her?

We will never know until we hear it from the designer.

According to a lot of people in the Bayo "rape" thread, it doesn't actually matter what the creator intended, only how they perceive a 10 second clip.

 

[pantsmith]

that's a huge fucking stretch if i ever saw one, especially considering that it's pretty hard to directly see chell in portal

Chell wears some things that let her jump more. Like a modified running blade used by athletes without feet.

So? Its still a fair point. Theyre empowering and they occupy a similar visual motiff. If they were heel/boots like Samus' theyd serve the exact same function.

This is not an argument for putting more characters in heels, rather an argument that they dont have to equal sexualization. They can serve a character in a number of ways.

 

[Scrabble]

That's a valid point and other people have argued similarly about other characters typically accused of being exclusively fan service for males. I feel most people who dismiss possible male oversexualization as power fantasies are still under the assumption the average gamer is a heterosexual male who would see someone like Batman as a power fantasy, implicitly denying the possibility of a female or homosexual gamer being attracted to the more sexual side of the design.

Asssassin's Creed has always been hugely popular with women precisely because of this.

Nothing about Arno's appearance is indicative of what a "real" male looks like, especially considering a time like the french revolution where people didn't have perfect shiny hair and white teeth, but we draw a distinction on that being okay, but a woman having big boobs isn't since it's not "real" because why?

When ever sexualization comes up, a big talking point is how "real" or not real the character seems because of it, but why are big boobs the seemingly only part of that equation that doesn't seem acceptable? We accept that lead roles in movies are an unrealistic depiction of the common person. When's the last time you've seen a lead role in a movie not be attractive? Most dudes don't have absolutely perfect skin, complimented with tons of makeup, perfect hair and teeth, etc, but we accept those things because we understand it's fiction and a hyper fantasy. Look at the walking dead. It's a post apocalyptic setting where everything has gone to shit, but everyone still looks ridiculously good. The men are all clean shaven(rick grew a beard but it's a perfectly groomed beard at that) with perfect haircuts that manage to always stay the same length, women still have make up on, everyone is prepped up. Why are there women wearing lipstick? From a what's "real" and "practical" standpoint it's absolutely absurd but we still accept it. I think there's something deeper going on here, and when people say "it's not just a puritan thing" are you sure about that? Because if so why do you accept all those other facets as being fine and normal, but cleavage suddenly becomes a no no on account of it not being real or practical?

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

I don't bother to determine which is which because its not worth it. Why does sexy have to be empowering to not be a bad thing? Why do we feel the need to be so prudish about human sexuality?

 

[Ralemont]

People didn't like Twilight because it was toward the bottom of the barrel for vampire romance stuff. Them being misunderstood and sexy is as old as dirt. It's more execution and marketing as the issue for that.

Yes, let's not forget the biggest reason people hate Twilight: it's fucking awful. Plenty of people like Buffy and hate Twilight.

 

[Vice]

Chell, who is generally considered a great example of a female character handled well, spends the entire game wearing "heels". If we accept that they serve a function in her fictional universe, whos to say that other heels cant work in other fictional universes?

For instance Bayonettas not only make her taller, play up her confidence and fit a wardrobe I imagine her picking for herself, but they are also weapons. I couldnt fight in heels, but the fact that Bayonetta does is telling of how awesome she is.

Chell wears some things that let her jump more. Like a modified running blade used by athletes without feet.

 

[Mesoian]

Chell, who is generally considered a great example of a female character handled well, spends the entire game wearing "heels". If we accept that they serve a function in her fictional universe, whos to say that other heels cant work in other fictional universes?

For instance Bayonettas not only make her taller, play up her confidence and fit a wardrobe I imagine her picking for herself, but they are also weapons. I couldnt fight in heels, but the fact that Bayonetta does is telling of how awesome she is.

Sure if the heels do something. But let's not get crazy, 99% of the usage of heels in artwork is to imitate common formal attire (or...porn attire as culture has gotten to), and that usually stems from a lack of understand of what it actually feels like to be in such attire. There is an overwhelming lack of empathy when it comes to female fashion design in modern media.

But yeah man, I'm fine if heels are GUNS. I don't know if I would count Chell as those are less heels and more stylized spring shoes.

I don't bother to determine which is which because its not worth it. Why does sexy have to be empowering to not be a bad thing? Why do we feel the need to be so prudish about human sexuality?

No seriously though, it doesn't HAVE to be a bad thing, but generally its usage in video games is simply to reduce a female's status into something that matters very little; something to oggle here and there. I think demanding for sexualization to have utility isn't too much to ask. Hell, if people consider the utility of the outfits they make instead of making another set of bikini armor and being like, "yeah, that looks nice" we may get more fleshed out characterization in the long run.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Yes, and it's more in line with the subtle undertones of the arguments I'm seeing that "these things should not be made" (yes no one has said those exact words, but I detect the hints of that when people start using language as "dangerous" and "damaging" or making moral judgements to describe media), which I will vehemently disagree with.

So let's look at this. If you're saying that the only way one should show criticism is by not buying a game, that means that has to apply to everything. Every time someone's mad at a change to gameplay in a series (Halo 4), every time someone's mad at the story of a game (Mass Effect 3), every time someone's mad because they think they got an inferior product for whatever reason (ACU, MCC, E.T. the Video Game). These people should all just shut up and not buy/return the game already, because by your loose definition they're saying that "games like this should never be made" (I don't know how that same statement isn't also being made by just not buying it, but whatever).

On the other side of that coin, you're saying that the only way people should show praise of a game is by buying it. People talking about how cool a certain segment was? People praising a specific mechanic or gamepaly change from past games? People expressing love for certain characters? Just shut up and play the game already! GAF wouldn't exist, and games that sell would just create sequels that are exactly the same as the games that sell, until sales suddenly drop because people are sick of it and developers have no idea why.

If that sounds ridiculous, it's because it is. The important thing to remember here is that the ideologies and cultural norms that lead to stuff like the characters in the OP have been around for a very long time, to the point where people don't even realize they're doing something that could offend someone. I wouldn't be surprised if you're right, and that a lot of these characters were designed that way just because they thought they "looked cool". However, that doesn't mean that people don't have the right to be offended and show their displeasure with the product.

If enough people are upset, developers can either heed the criticism or keep doing the same thing, and we're seeing right now how that doesn't really work out for them in the long run (outrage over Ubisoft due to apparent continuous missteps), as we've seen in the past (remember when everyone was mad at Capcom? How are they doing now?). I'm sorry if maybe you really love these games just for sexy characters, but even then I'm sure someone will make porn games for you to play if things like the characters in the OP disappear from mainstream games.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

No seriously though, it doesn't HAVE to be a bad thing, but generally its usage in video games is simply to reduce a female's status into something that matters very little; something to oggle here and there. I think demanding for sexualization to have utility isn't too much to ask. Hell, if people consider the utility of the outfits they make instead of making another set of bikini armor and being like, "yeah, that looks nice" we may get more fleshed out characterization in the long run.

I hate when utility is taken too far, its incredibly boring. We are using FF as an example, where everyone in almost the entire series fights in street clothes