Beelzebufo
Banned
Apparently the male viera live far away so you never see them in the games. But they exist so it's not fan service, guys.
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Female Sexualization vs. Empowerment in Games - How do you determine which is which?
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
Whether or not it fits the character's personality.
Samara in ME2 is an example of objectification. She's basically a samurai who lives by a strict code and doesn't seem particularly interested in sex. Yet her suit is zipped down. It isn't even the style of the suit: you can see the latches and the zipper where it should be zippered. This adds nothing to the character and actually contradicts it. Bad.
Morrigan in DA: Origins is an example of sexualization that's fine, because it fits her character and she owns it. Her outfit is designed with her "witch of the wilds" character theme in mind, and what's more her personality makes it evident that she approaches the question of sex casually, and can tend to actually use her sexuality as a tool at her disposal.
Samara in ME2 is an example of objectification. She's basically a samurai who lives by a strict code and doesn't seem particularly interested in sex. Yet her suit is zipped down. It isn't even the style of the suit: you can see the latches and the zipper where it should be zippered. This adds nothing to the character and actually contradicts it. Bad.
Morrigan in DA: Origins is an example of sexualization that's fine, because it fits her character and she owns it. Her outfit is designed with her "witch of the wilds" character theme in mind, and what's more her personality makes it evident that she approaches the question of sex casually, and can tend to actually use her sexuality as a tool at her disposal.
We don't even know if they actually do dress scantily too or not.
They've never shown up in anything official.
Your argument would be more effective if you didn't pick that Lara Croft picture where's she's clearly posing in the usual comic book fashion to show off both her butt and her boobs.
When you go mountain climbing and tomb raiding, you're not going to wear hot pants, your legs will get scratched everywhere. In personality Lara Croft may be a 'power fantasy for women', but unquestionably her physical design is for the prurient interests of men.
If there were males I would have no problem with it at all. But if it's all females then I'll agree it's fan service at best and sexist at worst.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
That's a valid point and other people have argued similarly about other characters typically accused of being exclusively fan service for males. I feel most people who dismiss possible male oversexualization as power fantasies are still under the assumption the average gamer is a heterosexual male who would see someone like Batman as a power fantasy, implicitly denying the possibility of a female or homosexual gamer being attracted to the more sexual side of the design.
Real Talk: a lot of what Mevius seems like is "we have these artists, and if we don't use them, they will leave, because we aren't making ANYTHING right now that requires new artwork or design."
Oppo
Member
Oh, I don't know about that.
Bayonetta – I really dislike the artstyle. A lot. But I also recognize that it's probably a very good game. It's just not for me.
I think Platinum can make her do whatever they want. She's their creation. But that game ends with her on a stripper pole during the credits. Kind of hard to argue the 'empowerment' angle on that one. I know Nintendo fans really want her to be progressive but I don't think they should be insecure about what she really is – an action pin up doll. It's fine. It doesn't help stereotypes but not every game can move that ball forward.
Some of the women that I've seen in the rock climbing place I frequent get quite close to Lara, minus the holsters. That is indoors, I'll grant you, but I'll just leave one non-word here: lululemon.dramatis said:
You're sort of making his point for him.
Zoe
Member
As this guy's fiance says:
Though I played the elf. 絶対領域, baby!
Oh, I'm not saying it ALWAYS goes like that, but a lot of time it usually does.
That's pretty convenient. Don't want to make any dudes playing the game uncomfortable.
sensui-tomo
Member
I hope i'm not banned or anything for this, but why are we just saying "this is for men or this is for women" when we are in a time where the same sex can oggle the character in point, i mean people who are lesbian and gay cant oggle at people all of a sudden? Shouldnt it be This person is for "anyone who finds women/men attractive" or am I just over thinking this and should probably shut up?
What about new Lara? I really like her 2013 design:
I don't look at that and say "male fantasy." I see female empowerment. Look at those triceps.
Beelzebufo
Banned
So everything and everything is okay, no matter how damaging its influence can be, because it's in a videogame? That seems like an irresponsible attitude.
As far as I was aware, not many people have a problem with new Lara, at least from a design standpoint, but I could be wrong.
Why do artists and designers need an excuse to create fantasy characters who do not exist?
It's ok if you do not like those kinds of characters. I do not. But I do not try to "name and shame" them (like what happened to Dragon's Crown creator) for making something that a lot of people enjoy.
If something doesn't appeal to me, I move on to the next product. And there are plenty of games out there on PC or mobile.
It's ok if you do not like those kinds of characters. I do not. But I do not try to "name and shame" them (like what happened to Dragon's Crown creator) for making something that a lot of people enjoy.
If something doesn't appeal to me, I move on to the next product. And there are plenty of games out there on PC or mobile.
You claim these things are damaging? What is the scientific proof of that claim? Then all media is damaging and not just gaming (Books, movies, music, etc.)
You must have misunderstood my post, or are being sarcastic. Impossible to tell.
EDIT: whoops, didn't see the 2nd "don't" lol. sorry.
I did say "some" women. Guys do I really have to use qualifiers everytime I say the word "women?" Do you really need me to specify whether I'm stating a universal, irrefutable fact about female human beings, generalizing about the majority or women, or just referring to some women among many? Because I think "context is key," as I've heard somewhere.
Oppo
Member
Heh. I can see how it would read that way. I was just saying, I dislike Bayonetta on artistic reasons, how it's presented, but I know that's a damn good game. I wouldn't call it bad. I know it's just my preference, my hang-up as it were, not the game's. If that makes sense.
I mean, yeah. Welcome to the overarching conversation. Why do you think people have been rallying against Disney Princesses for the last couple years?
This discussion has no place in a thread previewing a video game. This is not a gaming discussion, it's a discussion about social issues relating to gaming. That's the problem. A thread about SE previewing a new female character turned into multiple pages of people mounting soapboxes to declare SE all but unethical for the character design.
I don't want to hear that, and it's got nothing to do with apathy. I've live long enough to know that these online debates are pointless posturing by people who want to feel like they're doing something without actually doing it. This industry is driven by dollars. I see no attempts to organize a boycott of any of these games. Instead, I see a FFXV preview thread cluttered with complaints from people who admit giving money to these same designers. The hypocrisy doesn't even register 90% of the time. You can't say you know the character will be sexualized and shallow based on recent history without having played the game extensively. And if you played it extensively, you more than likely paid for the game. If you paid for the game, then you encourage these kinds of character designs because you helped subsidize the sequel.
Activism isn't easy. It involves getting off your ass and doing something to affect change. I threw my soapbox away because I accepted that I'm far too lazy to get hands-on for a cause, and sitting around complaining about a problem without doing anything to change it is uber lame. I don't mind taking a stand here because this is a strictly online issue, and I can't actually resolve this with physical effort. It's also the only reason I feel validated in making such a complaint.
I have no issue with people having different opinions on what's classy or whatever, but it doesn't need to be mentioned in a preview thread. It's easy enough to create a new topic to discuss the sleaziness of a character design, without destroying interest in the actual game thread. One of those threads may tumble off the front page quickly, but that would be due to lack of interest from the community. These discussions don't need to be forced onto those of people just interested in gaming for games. PEACE.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I completely agree, all media is damaging and not just gaming. That's why people are troubled by this kind of thing even though it's "just" videogames or cartoons or comics or whatever.
And so we're allowed to not buy their products if we don't like something, but we're not allowed to talk about why we don't like it? Isn't that bad for developers, who won't know what they're doing wrong?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Eh, its not a bad point. I'm trying to figure out what to say about this actually...
captmorgan
Banned
You have apparently have never gone mountain climbing or bouldering before.
I agree completely, at the bolded. Which is why I elaborated on that aspect when quoting him. The culture aspect really wasn't valid as you say and I agree but I think the general idea is that by expanding on characterization for female characters, that leaves freedom of design (so long as it makes sense). So if you're designing a tribal girl, fine, but whatever she wears shouldn't be exaggerated solely for sex appeal.
Whenever the topic of sexualized male characters comes up it's always immediately slapped down and discredited, "male power fantasy."
"Well male figures are also unrealistic and sexualized. There's an entire medium that consists almost exclusively of incredibly handsome, charming, and impossibly muscular men wearing skin-tight spandex."
"Oh that doesn't count, that's a male power fantasy not sexualization."
Okay. I can see where that's coming from. But what about female characters like Lara Croft?
"Lara Croft is a horribly sexist character. Her proportions are impossible and she's just there to be oggled."
Yeah Lara Croft has a very sexy design, but that's not all there is to her. We've seen throughout an entire series that Lara is strong, tough, intelligent, etc. How is Lara not a female power fantasy? Are they not allowed to have sex appeal?
It's about creative intent. Batman wasn't created with any intent to make him titillating to a female audience. He was created to be essentially the Best Man on Earth. So, male power fantasy. Because I dunno about you, but I wouldn't mind being the best man on earth. If he gets some ladies going, that's awesome for them, but that's not what he was created to do.
Lara Croft (at least in her classic PSX incarnation) was crafted, at least in part, to be titillating to what was viewed as being a male-dominated audience.
Look at the kneejerk reactions dudes have to the Twilight guys. That's a much better comparison than Batman. The creative intent with Edward and Jacob, at least in part, is to be titillating to a female-dominated audience. Most dudes hate the shit out of those characters. With good reason. Imagine having that kneejerk reaction to, like, 80% of all dudes in videogames. Let's say every tough bald space marine in gaming became a broody sparkling vampire overnight. And having the dominant culture tell you that you just have to fucking suck it up if you want to play at all. That's just how it is kid, we're not changing for you. Doesn't really seem fair, does it?
Do you really care if there's more to Edward than being a sexy, sparkly vampire if he continues to be one? Dunno about you, but for me the answer is no. I shouldn't be expected to just look past that bullshit and neither should women in the case of Lara Croft.
SixMachine
Member
ShinMaruku
Member
That makes it even more stupid if you ask me.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
All media is influential, yes. Damaging is a more complicated story.
you're correct, but it's called "male gaze" for a reason. straight men are by far the dominant social group in almost every modern society, and their needs are the ones that are primarily catered to.
Exactly. And keep in mind, we aren't saying that these things shouldn't exist, but they aren't free from scrutiny just because the artists or author decided to create them and put them out there.
Team Ninja was totally free to make their christmas DLC skins a big bow wrapped around the privates of there characters, I will NEVER EVER EVER stop pointing at it and saying "Look how fucking stupid this is."
What about those who do not feel they are doing anything wrong and like these decisions?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its not even like "male gaze" as a concept is inherently bad. There is a swathe of "female gaze" media as well and it has good content and trash content. The problem is ubiquity and homogeneity.
It's not about shaming individual games/creators for doing this. It's about trying to understand and change things to where maybe gross/pointless sexualization isn't the norm for the industry (while not entirely pushing it out)
Actually it's about ethics in games journalism
All media having the potential to influence negative trends in culture is a fine and all discussion, but this is a discussion about trends in video games on a forum about video games. Just because it can apply to media as a whole doesn't mean we can't focus on the video game aspect.
Again, most people would probably be on board with this if we had more overtly sexualized men. The ratio is too wide to ignore.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Then they can watch as they make less and less money and more people speak out against their game, if they're doing things that bother people enough for them to not buy it.
This sounds like a Catch-22. People can't intelligently criticize something without playing it, but if they play it they are complicit and hypocrits if they complain?
Besides, there's more to games than just the design of one character. Mass Effect 2 is a top-five all-time game to me but I can still voice my displeasure with Samara's character model. If that sends the message that designs don't have to change for me to buy the game then so be it, because I will indeed continue to buy Mass Effect games. But my complaint will be made hoping a change is made simply because it's more tasteful and gives more integrity to the story, even if it comes at a potential highly hypothetical (and minor) loss of sales.
Then you're golden. Keep giving them the thumbs up and enjoying yourself.
But I would hope that you would at least listen to other points of view and see how other people could precieve something that you like as potentially harmful.
It's okay to like something that's potentially harmful, you're not a bad person for liking a little T'n'A or uberviolence here and there.
That's sort of an extreme way of putting it...
sensui-tomo
Member
I wish I could have made a stronger point but to be honest that was the laziest way I could come up with it, to me this just seems most posts are "this is sexy for men/women" and i didnt know that both genders couldnt find their own gender sexy or anything. Again for anyone here please correct me if I am wrong.(not in a condesending tone, being 100% honest here)
veloxStrix
Banned
I spend most of my time not caring, to be honest.
Having an opinion that isn't agreeing with whatever SJW hashtag is going around is generally going to result in everyone telling you how skewed your viewpoint and that the way you see the world will never change because you are a misogynistic douchebag.
All because you think Samus wearing high heels wasn't a life altering event.
Having an opinion that isn't agreeing with whatever SJW hashtag is going around is generally going to result in everyone telling you how skewed your viewpoint and that the way you see the world will never change because you are a misogynistic douchebag.
All because you think Samus wearing high heels wasn't a life altering event.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
That's their right, and its our right to still be critical of what they make at least. But there are also plenty of developers who have responded to the recent boom in feminist criticism positively. Off the top of my head BioWare and Volition for sure
Anything can be perceived as harmful by anyone. My empathy can only extend so far when people start making claims that media is damaging without any proof or scientifically-backed evidence.
Case in point
silvermember
Banned
I think this might be the best way to explain to guys sexualization in video games locks women out. A lot of guys on the interweb as you said hate those two clowns, but I don't think those that hate them have ever thought about why they hate them, other than "cuz twilight".
It would be nice if someone created something of an Edward and Jacob test. Where people look at sexualize male characters and critic them as a learning too as to why objectification is bad.
They often overlap. Generally, I see a woman as being empowered when it is done to make her more powerful, but see it as sexualised if its for the purpose of fan service. Often, however, women are made to look sexy for a number of reasons, which few but the developer and character designer actually know.
For instance, I do think that Bayonetta was made sexy to empower and individualize her. She has long legs for kicking opponents a slender figure that can easily move to give the game realistic movement. Furthermore, her design gives her a very striking appearance. She is indeed a very well designed character. I however also think part of her design was to appeal to teenage and young adult males.
For instance, I do think that Bayonetta was made sexy to empower and individualize her. She has long legs for kicking opponents a slender figure that can easily move to give the game realistic movement. Furthermore, her design gives her a very striking appearance. She is indeed a very well designed character. I however also think part of her design was to appeal to teenage and young adult males.
Yes that's exactly what is going on when discussing the topic of symptomatic instances of structural marginalization in the form of overrepresentation of sexually objectified women in entertainment media.
You seem to care enough about the topic to post in this thread and engage the so-called SJWs. Or maybe you just care about ethics in games journalism is that it?
You're not wrong but the added wrinkle is the disparity between examples of females being sexualized (regardless of who it's for) vs. men. There just isn't enough diversity to shrug it off as "something for everyone." Compared to books where, for example, romance novels are ubiquitous.