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Fighting Games Weekly | April 28 - May 4 | The Desolation of Smug

K

Kimosabae

Banned
kirblar said:
That's not a ceiling, that's a floor.

You have two choices with including it in the next game-

a) You keep it and build it into the engine. You make it easier to do (a la Tekken/Marvel)
b) You remove it because you don't like how it functions in standard play.

"Keep it as is" was never a viable option.
Click to expand...

You're going to have to explain why it's a floor before it's a ceiling.
 
O

Onemic

Member
QisTopTier said:
Every GG and BB arcade mode boss besides Justice has been playable in the arcades since forever. Dizzy and Testament were time locked I believe. Same for Hakumen and Nu in BBCT and in BBCP I believe Nu, Mu, and Izayoi were all time locked.
Click to expand...

What's her playstyle? She seems like a weird mixture of Litchi/Mu. If the console version doesn't add in Baiken, I'll probably play her.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Kimosabae said:
You're going to have to explain why it's a floor before it's a ceiling.
Click to expand...
Floor = baseline requirement for competitive play. Ceiling = potentially required, but not a necessity. (Wobbling would go here.) In competitive play, not being able to do it puts you at a pretty stark disadvantage in terms of movement speed, no?

The problem with Wavedashing comes from "Do you want your players able to move like this in Casual play". If the answer is no, then it has to come out. (Which it did.) Yes, it was a competitive thing, but "gentleman's agreements not to do X" don't hold up when people play competitively/anonymously. You have to legislate the rules.

I'm not implying Brawl was a great game on a lot of levels- there are obviously a TON of issues with the game. But it doesn't mean that individual design choices weren't made with a justifiable rationale.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
kirblar said:
Not assumptions. It's a real thing. You saw it with "damage on the stack" being taken away in MTG- it was a "gotcha" combat intricacy that didn't really add any gameplay but a subset really liked it because it let them blindside newer players with a rule they weren't aware of. Vega players who don't like the character becoming "too easy" to use. A reason the links in SF generally stay in is because it makes people feel rewarded when they learn/master them.
Click to expand...

you are way overestimating how useful wavedashing is

your character slides

that's about it

it's not like you're gonna start 4 stocking people just because you learned how to slide

one can wavedash to their heart's content but i'll still probably win with sheik using nothing but the c stick
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
I'd say only space animals absolutely must master wave dashing.


It's a good tool for everyone to learn though, and some characters get a bigger boost from it than others.

Learning general spacing, using tilts and fast falling would be a bigger priority though imo
 
C

Cosmo Clock 21

Banned
Anth0ny said:
you are way overestimating how useful wavedashing is

your character slides

that's about it

it's not like you're gonna start 4 stocking people just because you learned how to slide

one can wavedash to their heart's content but i'll still probably win with sheik using nothing but the c stick
Click to expand...
This is something other competitive Smash players I've met have echoed before somebody goes and tries to dismiss as a minority opinion
 
M

Marz

Member
QisTopTier said:
I'd say only space animals absolutely must master wave dashing.


It's a good tool for everyone to learn though, and some characters get a bigger boost from it than others.
Click to expand...

Nah you actually need to learn wavedashing to punish a lot of stuff out of shield.

Like if you shield a Marth fsmash fully space you can't punish unless you wave dash OoS
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
kirblar said:
Floor = baseline requirement for competitive play. Ceiling = potentially required, but not a necessity. (Wobbling would go here.) In competitive play, not being able to do it puts you at a pretty stark disadvantage in terms of movement speed, no?

The problem with Wavedashing comes from "Do you want your players able to move like this in Casual play". If the answer is no, then it has to come out. (Which it did.) Yes, it was a competitive thing, but "gentleman's agreements not to do X" don't hold up when people play competitively/anonymously. You have to legislate the rules.

I'm not implying Brawl was a great game on a lot of levels- there are obviously a TON of issues with the game. But it doesn't mean that individual design choices weren't made with a justifiable rationale.
Click to expand...


Yeah, you're just being presumptuous, shoehorning your ideals into a game/series you have no genuine interest in.



WDing only truly matters at the highest of levels or the closest of matched up competitors in terms of skill sets. You can totally do well in a Melee bracket without learning to Wavedash as long as you don't play Luigi or Space Animals (and even that would be arguable). I'm not sure about today, but this happened often back when I played. Sheik, Ganon and Puff are perfect examples of characters that do well without WD (I'm pretty sure Hungrybox didn't start WDing until very recently and was winning).

You should actually try playing some of these games you keep talking about.

Marz said:
Nah you actually need to learn wavedashing to punish a lot of stuff out of shield.

Like if you shield a Marth fsmash fully space you can't punish unless you wave dash OoS
Click to expand...


You also. Stop talking about games you don't play. Using Wavedash out of Shield to punish a blocked Marth F.Smash is so matchup specific and circumstantial it's not even a thing. Just stop.
 
F

FSLink

Banned
Anth0ny said:
you are way overestimating how useful wavedashing is

your character slides

that's about it

it's not like you're gonna start 4 stocking people just because you learned how to slide

one can wavedash to their heart's content but i'll still probably win with sheik using nothing but the c stick
Click to expand...

Pretty much, it's just an additional movement option.

Though, Kimosabae, man, you're being way too confrontational about all this. You're absolutely correct but it reads like you're taking it personal. It's just a fighting game.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Kimosabae said:
Yeah, you're just being presumptuous, shoehorning your ideals into a game/series you have no genuine interest in.


WDing only truly matters at the highest of levels or the closest of matched up competitors in terms of skill sets. You can totally do well in a Melee bracket without learning to Wavedash as long as you don't play Luigi (and even that would be arguable). I'm not sure about today, but this happened often back when I played. Sheik, Ganon and Puff are perfect examples of characters that do well without WD (I'm pretty sure Hungrybox didn't start WDing until very recently and was winning).

You should actually try playing some of these games you keep talking about.
Click to expand...
What ideals? I'm not saying this stuff because I'm trying to get the game to appeal to me.

These aren't ideals. These are design rationales. WDing got cut. Why? Because that type of movement wasn't intended to be in the game, and doesn't have a positive impact on the baseline casual party game that the majority of owners play at home.

Same reason Land Destruction got moved to a 4cc baseline, hard counterspells moved to 3cc+, creatures got buffed, and damage went back to not being on the stack in MTG. People whined and complained that the "skill" was being taken out of the game, and the game just went on and did just fine (in fact, even better) and the good players still kept winning at an above-average rate.

I guess people keep assuming that my criticisms on big-picture design issues are based on my own preferences. I love playing Legacy in MTG. It's difficult to approach, requires a near-encyclopedic knowledge of rules/timing minutiae and has a metric crap-ton of obnoxious BS going on. That doesn't stop me from being able to hold the opinion of "I love this way of playing, but I also think it's a good thing that the current game looks absolutely nothing like this because it would turn off a lot of players and hurt the game." . Generally, when it comes to really big-picture things like the criticisms I have of the TTT-style 1-lifebar KO system, its really not. Or things like defending comeback mechanics. (Players (overall) really do legitimately like them.) It's observational, based on patterns I've seen, things that I've seen work for other games, etc.

Changing up the games to make it more approachable is definitely a thing that designers at companies are doing. Look at GG's artistic revamp, switching to a modern kid-friendly Anime aesthetic. Or SFxT - they intentionally removed double motions (qcf, qcf, ppp) from the game to try and make it easier for newer players to pull off flashy attacks. When I'm talking about design issues, that's generally the perspective I'm coming from.
 
K

Kimosabae

Banned
Lol man. I'm just direct in my mannerism in no way am I taking things "personally". If I think someone says something dumb or is overstepping their boundaries I'll simply let them know what I think without sugarcoating it. Sorry that's how I am. I do ths with every fg I talk about but for some reason whenever it's about smash people get extra sensitive.

Hopefully I can become more visible in the scene soon so people can attach a personality to the scree name. Maybe that will help. I'm actually too nice of a guy, which is a problem when you do sales.
 
C

Cosmo Clock 21

Banned
kirblar said:
What ideals? I'm not saying this stuff because I'm trying to get the game to appeal to me.

These aren't ideals. These are design rationales. WDing got cut. Why? Because that type of movement wasn't intended to be in the game, and doesn't have a positive impact on the baseline casual party game that the majority of owners play at home.

Same reason Land Destruction got moved to a 4cc baseline, hard counterspells moved to 3cc+, creatures got buffed, and damage went back to not being on the stack in MTG. People whined and complained that the "skill" was being taken out of the game, and the game just went on and did just fine (in fact, even better) and the good players still kept winning at an above-average rate.

I guess people keep assuming that my criticisms on big-picture design issues are based on my own preferences. I love playing Legacy in MTG. It's difficult to approach, requires a near-encyclopedic knowledge of rules/timing minutiae and has a metric crap-ton of obnoxious BS going on. That doesn't stop me from being able to hold the opinion of "I love this way of playing, but I also think it's a good thing that the current game looks absolutely nothing like this because it would turn off a lot of players and hurt the game." . Generally, when it comes to really big-picture things like the criticisms I have of the TTT-style 1-lifebar KO system, its really not. Or things like defending comeback mechanics. (Players (overall) really do legitimately like them.) It's observational, based on patterns I've seen, things that I've seen work for other games, etc.

Changing up the games to make it more approachable is definitely a thing that designers at companies are doing. Look at GG's artistic revamp, switching to a modern kid-friendly Anime aesthetic. Or SFxT - they intentionally removed double motions (qcf, qcf, ppp) from the game to try and make it easier for newer players to pull off flashy attacks. When I'm talking about design issues, that's generally the perspective I'm coming from.
Click to expand...
Wavedashing is generally not seen at a casual level of play. Stone Rain and Counterspell are commons. Wavedashing is a medium-dexterity input mechanic. Damage on the stack only required knowledge of the implications of the rules to take advantage of.
 
B

biosnake20

Member
tYs3mkS.jpg
Click to expand...
.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Cosmo Clock 21 said:
Wavedashing is generally not seen at a casual level of play. Stone Rain and Counterspell are commons. Wavedashing is a medium-dexterity input mechanic. Damage on the stack only required knowledge of the implications of the rules to take advantage of.
Click to expand...
If it were to be kept in the game for future installments, it'd be moved to a more standard input to make it accessible. Again, keeping that as-is is really not a viable option for the developers. Tekken, for instance- has kept some of those "glitches" around and standardized them.
 
C

Cosmo Clock 21

Banned
kirblar said:
If it were to be kept in the game for future installments, it'd be moved to a more standard input to make it accessible. Again, keeping that as-is is really not a viable option for the developers. Tekken, for instance- has kept some of those "glitches" around and standardized them.
Click to expand...
While I'm all for reducing dexterity requirements for baseline play (and wave dashing is nothing compared to one frame links) this was not the point you were originally trying to make.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Cosmo Clock 21 said:
While I'm all for reducing dexterity requirements for baseline play (and wave dashing is nothing compared to one frame links) this was not the point you were originally trying to make.
Click to expand...
That players were mad salty over it being removed despite it being an easy-to-understand design decision?
 
K

kirblar

Member
WesternHeretic said:
The new smash doesn't have wave dashing?

Welp I guess I'm still not jumping on the bandwagon.
Click to expand...
"Smash 4 released earlier today, Competitive Smash players already back to playing Melee" one step closer to being a real non-FGCNN headline. :p

In an unrelated note- is there a listing of the Ultra Combo startup times in USF4? Something James/David talked about on the Tuesday show has started the gears turning on the FADC -5 nerf.
What's the design decision for tripping?
Click to expand...
Sakurai's desire to troll people out of spite.
 
W

WesternHeretic

Member
QisTopTier said:
What's the design decision for tripping?
Click to expand...

How awesome would Marvel be? X-Factor level 3 PHX/Vergil doing reverse OCV on your team then TRIP BITCH.

NO DERP FOR YOU!

Zero loop, loop one player game.. on last character TRIP BITCH! Reverse OCV!

kirblar said:
"Smash 4 released earlier today, Competitive Smash players already back to playing Melee" one step closer to being a real non-FGCNN headline. :p

In an unrelated note- is there a listing of the Ultra Combo startup times in USF4? Something James/David talked about on the Tuesday show has started the gears turning on the FADC -5 nerf.
Click to expand...

So.. Smash community are going to continue and just play Melee for another decade? Man those guys are even more committed than MVC2 was.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
kirblar said:
In an unrelated note- is there a listing of the Ultra Combo startup times in USF4? Something James/David talked about on the Tuesday show has started the gears turning on the FADC -5 nerf.
Click to expand...
Frame data for AE2012, barring explicit modifications in the Ultra change log.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
When did they announce Smash 4 doesn't have wavedashing? I must've missed that announcement, but it explains the discussion lol
 
C

Cosmo Clock 21

Banned
kirblar said:
That players were mad salty over it being removed despite it being an easy-to-understand design decision?
Click to expand...
Except the design decision was based on malice as old interviews with Sakurai showed. If you're going to continue your MTG analogy, can you offer proof that Brawl sold better than Melee due to the removal of wavedashing, L-canceling, and other "complex" mechanics?

Could you offer a justifiab!e explanation to Brawl players why they shouldn't be salty over these design decisions when its competitive legacy is doomed because of them? Are you also going to argue that the drop in Standard attendance during the reign of Cawblade and JTMS was okay as long as NWO design standards were upheld?
 
K

kirblar

Member
theprodigy said:
lol you think that's how developers work?

also the only ones getting trolled right now are Nintendo fanboys at large
Click to expand...
Pretty sure it was how this specific development choice worked. (Much like Ono's "We wanted to create a villain!" balancing choice led to Yun.)
Cosmo Clock 21 said:
Except the design decision was based on malice as old interviews with Sakurai showed. If you're going to continue your MTG analogy, can you offer proof that Brawl sold better than Melee due to the removal of wavedashing, L-canceling, and other "complex" mechanics?

Could you offer a justifiab!e explanation to Brawl players why they shouldn't be salty over these design decisions when its competitive legacy is doomed because of them? Are you also going to argue that the drop in Standard attendance during the reign of Cawblade and JTMS was okay as long as NWO design standards were upheld?
Click to expand...
Brawl's problems are numerous. Adding things in wouldn't fix the plethora of very real issues the game has.

SFM/Jace are both cards in that "stupid Legacy power level" that made Standard incredibly un-fun. NWO was not the problem. Broken crap was. It wasn't fun for anyone but players who really liked the mirror match or who were good at playing it.

I've talked to Mike Turian. After hearing his views on cards, I understand why he's not in development anymore. :p
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
The overriding design decision for Brawl was "Smash is not a competitive game. Stop!"

Taking wavedashing out as a sort of competitive balance conflicts with this.
 
T

theprodigy

Member
Cosmo Clock 21 said:
Except the design decision was based on malice as old interviews with Sakurai showed. If you're going to continue your MTG analogy, can you offer proof that Brawl sold better than Melee due to the removal of wavedashing, L-canceling, and other "complex" mechanics?

Could you offer a justifiab!e explanation to Brawl players why they shouldn't be salty over these design decisions when its competitive legacy is doomed because of them? Are you also going to argue that the drop in Standard attendance during the reign of Cawblade and JTMS was okay as long as NWO design standards were upheld?
Click to expand...

he's not here to argue in good faith, if you couldn't tell
 
N

Nyoro SF

Member
People bought Brawl on hype which there was more of since there was this thing called the internet for generating said hype.

No one should use the difference of sales between the two to prove -anything-, but they still do... sadly.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Nyoro SF said:
People bought Brawl on hype which there was more of since there was this thing called the internet for generating said hype.

No one should use the difference of sales between the two to prove -anything-, but they still do... sadly.
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to make that argument as anything other than "it sold fine and played fine casually."

The competitive problems have given it a long-term black eye since it keeps highlighting the issues.
 
C

Cosmo Clock 21

Banned
kirblar said:
I'm not trying to make that argument as anything other than "it sold fine and played fine casually."

The competitive problems have given it a long-term black eye since it keeps highlighting the issues.
Click to expand...

In an attempt to discredit the people who poo poo on Brawl, you tried to draw a comparison to a dissimilar incident in MTG where they simplified certain aspects of the game in order to sell more packs, and failed to show that the changes in Brawl were done for the same reason and that it had the same direct impact. Then you oh so conveniently justified why competitive Brawl players have reasons to complain about the game.

theprodigy said:
he's not here to argue in good faith, if you couldn't tell
Click to expand...

Don't worry I'm not either
 
K

kirblar

Member
Cosmo Clock 21 said:
In an attempt to discredit the people who poo poo on Brawl, you tried to draw a comparison to a dissimilar incident in MTG where they simplified certain aspects of the game in order to sell more packs, and failed to show that the changes in Brawl were done for the same reason and that it had the same direct impact. Then you oh so conveniently justified why competitive Brawl players have reasons to complain about the game.

Don't worry I'm not either
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to defend Brawl as a whole. I'm defending the decision to cut wave dashing and make casual play the primary focus. Meta Knight alone could probably fill an entire book's worth of "THINGS NOT TO DO" in design. The MTG stuff goes along with the latter part of that.
Well...
Click to expand...
None of the opinions I'm presenting are being altered simply to screw with people. I'm not trolling whatsoever, these opinions are mine. I don't really enjoy the Tekken arguments, for instance- the game series has been having problems and I don't want to be seen as crapping on them even though some will take the criticism/observation that way.

It's just that the "Why wasn't Wavedashing in Brawl" thing to me is along the same axes as "Why weren't Parries in SF4" or "Why is SFM banned in Modern" in terms of being an unreasonable expectation/opinion, so yeah, it's sort of fun to be the guy on the opposite side of the argument. There are plenty of justified complaints about the changes. (Tripping is pretty unforgiveable from a casual or competitive standpoint) but I don't think this is one.
 
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