-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Final Fantasy XIII |OT|
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
- Status
KittenMaster
Member
Because I like all of the characters and enjoy the fact that most of them get all of the spotlight that allowed me to get to know each one personally instead of only the angsty lead character. It helps that they manage to make Hope and Vanille less annoying after a short time, and there are quite a few touching moments.
I haven't beaten the game yet, but Barthalmous is a competent villain, and I like that. He is introduced as just a figurehead but turns out to actually be the guy in control of both Sanctum and your fates, and has decent boss fights to boot.
People say that FF13 doesn't have a developed world, but I never was an issue for me. Pulse is obviously kept a mystery so that we can see how the characters react and adapt, and we can infer what Cocoon and Pulse are like through a lot of visual clues given.
I haven't beaten the game yet, but Barthalmous is a competent villain, and I like that. He is introduced as just a figurehead but turns out to actually be the guy in control of both Sanctum and your fates, and has decent boss fights to boot.
People say that FF13 doesn't have a developed world, but I never was an issue for me. Pulse is obviously kept a mystery so that we can see how the characters react and adapt, and we can infer what Cocoon and Pulse are like through a lot of visual clues given.
Of course, this is my opinion, but you asked why people like FF13's story, and not why it's good.
Die Squirrel Die
Member
Himuro said:
I'm probably not the best person to answer because I thought FFXII's story was excellent, but what I like most about FFXIII's story is mostly in the set-up and the role of the Fal'Cie and
the real reason for the creation of Cocoon and Bathandelus essentially being a red headed stepchild to the Maker
The way I see it, in XII the game was very economical with its cutscenes. There were barely any that didn't engage with the setup and present some detail that was crucial to understanding the plot and characters, but it didn't beat you around the head with it. If you missed it they weren't going to waste their time explaining it again. In XIII though, it's very bloated with its cutscenes and yet they rarely engage with anything to do with setup or the actual plot. It's lots of scenes of the character's constantly going over their feelings, making sure everything is explained in the most labourous detail, and yet this characterisation seems to exist in a complete bubble to everything else that is going on.
To give an example. At the end of chapter 11
you arrive in Oerba, Fang and Vanille's hometown, a place they haven't seen for 500 years, and it is deserted apart from the Cie'th running around. The screamingly obvious implication is that all the residents, all the people Fang and Vanille knew, or their ancestors at least, are those Cie'th, yet that gets no mention whatsoever. We've had a constant barrage scenes of Vanille going 'umm, heh, ohhh' for the last 30+ hours, her character barely evolving one iota, yet presented with a prime oppurtunity to give some depth to the character and have her relate to what has happened in the plot and they completely miss it.
That's what I mean when I say that in FFXIII the plot and the writing are two different things. The plot is actually interesting with lots of cool details, but the writing is horrendous and does nothing to convey those details. It's like SE didn't wait for the game to be released and went straight ahead and made all the dialogue in the game from someone's fan fiction.
Mikey Jr. said:
The thing about auto battle is that it's not always the best selection of options, and really, don't think of it as the game playing itself for you; it's more of a streamlining of the step by step process of selecting spells etc that we use to have to do.
If you switch Paradigms to make yourself a healer and you wanted to cast cure a bunch of times on yourself, well it just saves you the time of going 'abilities' 'cure' 'cure' 'cure' cure'. If you know that the auto battle will do what you want it do to, than it's just an aid for you.
Since you aren't going to be attacking until your bar fills anyway (unless you cancel the excess ATB to execute your actions earlier, which is a part of the game frankly) you aren't losing time by going the abilities route.
I have abilities set to default and switch between Auto and Abilities all the time depending on what I want to do.
It's just like the Paradigm shifting is a streamlining of manually selecting the actions for all your party members. I already want them to heal, ravage, whatever, so instead of manually selecting those actions I can tell them what I want them to do with a far simpler input, and they do it. It has more involvement than Gambits in FFXII with less of the tedious programing the AI.
If you 5 star the dragon using auto battle, you were probably high enough level, or early our enough that the dragon was a push over anyway, later in the game your performance makes a big difference versus enemies and your rating.
Beat the game last night. Glad it's over. The last boss was a joke. I beat it in 50 seconds using a grand total of two paradigms.
COM-RAV-SAB for two turns and then RAV-RAV-COM
The story had great potential, but SE screwed the pooch with how and where everything should have started.
Basically, decent idea Square, horrible execution.
COM-RAV-SAB for two turns and then RAV-RAV-COM
The story had great potential, but SE screwed the pooch with how and where everything should have started.
If the game started on Gran Pulse, with you needing to get to Cocoon, it would have been better. Imagine a story where you start off on Pulse, waking up from a crystal stasis hundreds of years after the fall of its civilization. You are the only two humans left. You explore ruined cities with rusted remnants of once high technology. Think Dark Tower. You are told by the Pulse Fal'cie that awakened you that in order to restore Pulse to it's once former glory you have to destroy Cocoon to recall the Maker. After arriving on Cocoon you learn it's inhabitants are actually the refugees of Pulse, who took to the sky after the cataclysm that befell Pulse. But they've become lazy, soulless humans. The Cocoon Fal'cie have sheltered them too long. They are corrupt and a worthy sacrifice to recall the Maker. Except the more you explore Cocoon, and as a few of its residents join your party (outcast because they too have been made Pulse L'cie by a dormant Pulse remnant on Cocoon) you come to realize that while Cocoon itself must be destroyed, the people themselves are worth saving. You and your Pulse native partner make the ultimate sacrifice, giving yourselves up to Ragnarok in order to create a bridge from Cocoon back to Pulse, destroying the manipulative Cocoon Fal'cie in the process.
That story, while not much different from the real story, would have been leagues better. Pulse is simply a more interesting world than sterile Cocoon. Instead of the game being a mission to save (but ultimately destroy) boring Cocoon, it would be about restoring the awesome Gran Pulse and in turn, humanity. Vanille and Fang would be infinitely more sympathetic characters. And while the rest of your crew are outcasts from Cocoon, they're actually rediscovering their humanity by destroying the machines that have been controlling and sheltering mankind all these hundreds of years.
That story, while not much different from the real story, would have been leagues better. Pulse is simply a more interesting world than sterile Cocoon. Instead of the game being a mission to save (but ultimately destroy) boring Cocoon, it would be about restoring the awesome Gran Pulse and in turn, humanity. Vanille and Fang would be infinitely more sympathetic characters. And while the rest of your crew are outcasts from Cocoon, they're actually rediscovering their humanity by destroying the machines that have been controlling and sheltering mankind all these hundreds of years.
I'm going to have to reconsider my statements re: auto-battle. Enough people here and elsewhere have intelligently defended it. Once you arrive on Pulse there are certainly a variety of situation where it isn't the best option, and "95%" of battles was rather hyperbolic on my end.
I take issue though with the fact that you certainly can use it to win 95% of the time (excluding optional missions, which i only did about 20 of), and win rather handily assuming proper paradigm use (which itself can boil down to a fairly consistent and dull couple of setups for a vast majority of the game). The fact that it does the job damned well through chapter 10 is a dangerous concept IMO. Game definitely encourage its use and sets a player up to rely on it for fast wins for 20 hours.
Edit-
Dude, Westonian, I want to play the game you just described. That was a brilliant re-invention of XIII.
I take issue though with the fact that you certainly can use it to win 95% of the time (excluding optional missions, which i only did about 20 of), and win rather handily assuming proper paradigm use (which itself can boil down to a fairly consistent and dull couple of setups for a vast majority of the game). The fact that it does the job damned well through chapter 10 is a dangerous concept IMO. Game definitely encourage its use and sets a player up to rely on it for fast wins for 20 hours.
Edit-
Dude, Westonian, I want to play the game you just described. That was a brilliant re-invention of XIII.
eXistor
Member
I just read Himuro's review. It's almost scary how much I think the same about the game.
I've been thinking, when was the last great traditional jrpg? I seriously can't think of one since DQVIII. FFXII was brilliant, but that's hardly traditional. Tales Vesperia was okay, but that was just another Tales game, i.e: just decent throughout. I long for the day a studio makes another classic jrpg in the vein of the old snes ones. Will it ever happen? How hard can it be though, in the snes days, they were popping up left and right. Now it's almost an extinct genre and it's been going downhill ever since the PSX days. No wonder DQVIII was so great, that felt like a snes rpg.
I've been thinking, when was the last great traditional jrpg? I seriously can't think of one since DQVIII. FFXII was brilliant, but that's hardly traditional. Tales Vesperia was okay, but that was just another Tales game, i.e: just decent throughout. I long for the day a studio makes another classic jrpg in the vein of the old snes ones. Will it ever happen? How hard can it be though, in the snes days, they were popping up left and right. Now it's almost an extinct genre and it's been going downhill ever since the PSX days. No wonder DQVIII was so great, that felt like a snes rpg.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Dragon Quest V for DS might count.eXistor said:
Joei
Member
I actually don't dislike the story too much, or rather the concept of it. It's just the story's execution and dialog in the game is so awful that I'm finding this to be probably the worst FF game I've played as a whole. That whole scene Himuro posted a few pages back with Jihl screaming random colors had me sitting here shaking my head. Graphically it's beautiful, and the auto-mated battle system is neat once it opens up a bit, but the writing in this game is so atrocious. Also, the game's way of delivering story elements through long-winded footnotes is probably the worst idea I've seen in a long, long time. I don't want to rehash the "we must have towns" argument, but most of that crap in the datalog would have been great for NPCs to gloss over, to have a rich, living environments tell us about.
You know, I know more about Kefka from the scant few lines that were spoken about him and his overall actions than I know about every character in this game.
Also, for the first tme in an RPG, I'm playing along and I have no idea where I am in relation to where I was. They could have at least thrown a map in and shown how all the areas connected, kind of like FF10.
I also want to say, that like a few other posts I've seen, I was totally enjoying myself those first few chapters... once I got to 11, I looked at the time I had played, could easily sum up the characters actions and feelings in a few words, and wondered what the hell I had just wasted 30+ hours on.
Lastly, the weapon upgrade system is the absolute worst method I've ever seen in a game. Ever.
You know, I know more about Kefka from the scant few lines that were spoken about him and his overall actions than I know about every character in this game.
Also, for the first tme in an RPG, I'm playing along and I have no idea where I am in relation to where I was. They could have at least thrown a map in and shown how all the areas connected, kind of like FF10.
I also want to say, that like a few other posts I've seen, I was totally enjoying myself those first few chapters... once I got to 11, I looked at the time I had played, could easily sum up the characters actions and feelings in a few words, and wondered what the hell I had just wasted 30+ hours on.
Lastly, the weapon upgrade system is the absolute worst method I've ever seen in a game. Ever.
Fimbulvetr
Member
firehawk12 said:
I'm commander Shepard, in this is my favorite chick in FFXIII.
Christ guys, how many pages did you go though in just a few hours? :lol
B-Rad Lascelle
Banned
The initial reception in GAF post-release was quite positive. But the haters chased everyone else out of this thread shortly thereafter.Pimpbaa said:
If one is willing to enjoy a game in spite of its faults, it's not exactly endemic to that ideal to contribute to a thread where the faults are ragged on to death to the exclusion of everything else.
Yes, we get it... FFXIII is a great idea executed horribly in terms of both gameplay & story. We don't need to hear it mentioned a hundred times over.
Interestingly enough, this turned out to be the first mainline Final Fantasy title I've managed to beat since FF8. I adore XII to pieces but never got around to finishing it.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Yeah I really liked FFXIII.I can see why people wouldn't like it. The story falls apart at Pulse, its just battle battle battle, and the battle system isn't for everyone. I myself enjoyed it a lot more then any other jrpg and it will most likely be my GOTY unless Red Dead is as good as it looks.B-Rad Lascelle said:The initial reception in GAF post-release was quite positive. But the haters chased everyone else out of this thread shortly thereafter.
If one is willing to enjoy a game in spite of its faults, it's not exactly endemic to that ideal to contribute to a thread where the faults are ragged on to death to the exclusion of everything else.
Yes, we get it... FFXIII is a great idea executed horribly in terms of both gameplay & story. We don't need to hear it mentioned a hundred times over.
Interestingly enough, this turned out to be the first mainline Final Fantasy title I've managed to beat since FF8. I adore XII to pieces but never got around to finishing it.
DangerousDave
Member
Amir0x said:
End it, because I still didn't understand the end.
darkpaladinmfc
Member
I'm on Chapter 13 and fighting those two beast things. How long do I have left?
Rubeus said:
It's not exactly the same.
Vanille and Fang actually wake up from stasis on Cocoon. Having the game start on Gran Pulse would require completely reworking how the get to Cocoon.
My plot re-work is a pipe dream. It's just that with four years to work on it, the writers couldn't come up with a better narrative arc? I like the premise of the story. But the way they chose to tell it was horrible.
Think this is going to be my 2nd Platinum effort. Haven't had a compulsion to nail a game like this since Fallout 3. Really enjoyed every part of the game so far, which is good as X-2 and XII quickly faded and became the first instances of FF games I just couldn't be bothered to finish. Quite good since I noticed that with some jRPGs, I just don't have the effort to push on through as it is quite an investment that you put in. Remembering things like Star Ocean 1 & 3, Kouldelka (awful) and Vagrant Story falling to the wayside in my past.
Dedication Through Light
Member
darkpaladinmfc said:
Definitely one of the most aweful battles I experienced in the game, this was the only one for me that was actually a standstill for me for a few moments.
B-Rad Lascelle said:
I come to a much different conclusion.
Especially since this is EXACTLY how the JPN thread started and ended.
And if you actually read the reviews and the opinions of the 'haters,' very few of them think it is a truly bad game. Most of them have gone on the record as saying it is a decent, fun experience. Praising its visuals, presentation and the concept behind the battle system.
Dedication Through Light
Member
rataven said:
Yeah you can retry them later
DangerousDave said:
I mean, if the story did just lose sense at the very ending, then I'm not surprised. This is Final Fantasy.
Still, I have trouble not seeing this game as better in every way to FFVIII story-wise. It makes sense for 85% of the game, unlike FFVIII which makes sense for 2% of the game. And of course, even FFXIII's mediocre translation is a hundred miles beyond the abysmal translation in FFVIII.
I mean, people are complaining about the "I'm a hero" and "Mother's are tough", but that's fucking Dostoyevsky compared to FFVIII.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
In retrospect.. I was really enjoying the storyline during the early part of the game with the dull linear gameplay.... I really enjoyed the ultra-dramatic anime posturing (although that was with the understanding that they would deliver more on the plot later on).
...But once the gameplay opened up, it was the storyline's turn to completely fell apart. It had nothing to do with a lack of plot focus caused by non-linearity or anything like that: We were still talking about cutscenes played one after another after reaching checkpoints. It's just that the content of these cutscenes was completely aimless. The party's main goal would often be decided in the midst of an airy inspirational speech, and they would rarely spell out the goal to each other, or more importantly to me, the player. Was I really wandering Pulse for 20 hours to find a way
They never once sold me on it. One character moment of Sazh (or whomever) doubting their goal would have gone a long way to sell me on that goal, ironically... but the way it was presented I had no idea what I was doing for most of the game.
It's almost as if they spent 90% of the effort on the plot on the early events surrounding the seaside town of Bodum and the "thirteen days".. building up Lightning's life, NORA, how Vanille/Fang were awoken, the events of Erude gorge. This was all tight, and well plotted IMO. These events were rolled out, in almost too much information really, over the course of the first twenty hours or so.
But all the really big, main plot points later on carried less wait than the plotting of a Saturday Morning cartoon. The whole motivation and use of Cid, Jihl, Barthandelus and the whole Cocoon crew was not thought out at all... and the way in which it was delivered to the player held no weight. THIS was where the datalog was abused IMO. When cutscenes occur, we have little impact from what we just saw, and then we go into the datalog to reveal that what we just witnessed was some big complicated plan that we had to be explained by a paragraph of text? That is how the datalog could be abused (rather, it's the messenger we want to shoot because it delivers the news that the game storyline proper failed to convey the appropriate plot information)
In the early part of the game, where the datalog was used to explain "matter of fact" realities of this world that were spared lengthy in-game exposition, I applauded it. Where it explained how the events of the thirteen days fit together, I thought it was a clever way to piece together the pre-game events of the story. But towards the end of the game, it's left to pick up the pieces of the plot that were never well-explained. Now I see how this game DID use the datalog as a crutch to avoid properly telling the story. I have no problem with a game that uses a datalog as a storyline-enriching companion to a main plot which can be understood on its own.
We used to talk about how XII's storyline fell apart. That was nothing in retrospect.
...But once the gameplay opened up, it was the storyline's turn to completely fell apart. It had nothing to do with a lack of plot focus caused by non-linearity or anything like that: We were still talking about cutscenes played one after another after reaching checkpoints. It's just that the content of these cutscenes was completely aimless. The party's main goal would often be decided in the midst of an airy inspirational speech, and they would rarely spell out the goal to each other, or more importantly to me, the player. Was I really wandering Pulse for 20 hours to find a way
to remove the L'Cie brands?
It's almost as if they spent 90% of the effort on the plot on the early events surrounding the seaside town of Bodum and the "thirteen days".. building up Lightning's life, NORA, how Vanille/Fang were awoken, the events of Erude gorge. This was all tight, and well plotted IMO. These events were rolled out, in almost too much information really, over the course of the first twenty hours or so.
But all the really big, main plot points later on carried less wait than the plotting of a Saturday Morning cartoon. The whole motivation and use of Cid, Jihl, Barthandelus and the whole Cocoon crew was not thought out at all... and the way in which it was delivered to the player held no weight. THIS was where the datalog was abused IMO. When cutscenes occur, we have little impact from what we just saw, and then we go into the datalog to reveal that what we just witnessed was some big complicated plan that we had to be explained by a paragraph of text? That is how the datalog could be abused (rather, it's the messenger we want to shoot because it delivers the news that the game storyline proper failed to convey the appropriate plot information)
In the early part of the game, where the datalog was used to explain "matter of fact" realities of this world that were spared lengthy in-game exposition, I applauded it. Where it explained how the events of the thirteen days fit together, I thought it was a clever way to piece together the pre-game events of the story. But towards the end of the game, it's left to pick up the pieces of the plot that were never well-explained. Now I see how this game DID use the datalog as a crutch to avoid properly telling the story. I have no problem with a game that uses a datalog as a storyline-enriching companion to a main plot which can be understood on its own.
We used to talk about how XII's storyline fell apart. That was nothing in retrospect.
User 10639
Member
This thread is so awesome. 300+ pages of genuine discussion and debate mixed with top hats, hair and clothing discussion, FTWer's random SMT trolling and just everything that guy says, frequently OT discussion of other JRPGs, etc. Time flies by in here!Fimbulvetr said:
Of course DQ V is going to be a great old school JRPG in the vein of SNES games, because it is an actual SNES game. I don't think that quite counts even if the DS release was it's first US release.Regulus Tera said:
You didn't like Vagrant Story or FFX-2 enough to finish, but you're going to do the insane grinding required to Platinum this game? Whaaaaaat?Widge said:
I think this confirms Fimb's theory about non-JRPG fans' taste in JRPGs.
marathonfool
Member
Rubeus said:
I liked that tune as well. Made the early missions less tedious.
Aside from the popular choices like the battle theme and Dust to Dust. I think I'll have to go with Sazh's theme, Chapter 12 theme
Eden Under Siege
Orphan's second form (Nascent Requiem)
User 10639
Member
Yaschas Massif sounds like elevator music.Rubeus said:
I'm partial to the Chocobo riding theme myself.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
My fav tracks:
-Prelude to FFXIII (the FMV when you first boot the game - It would be super-cool if this were also the prelude of future XIII games)
-Sabre's Edge (Boss Battle Theme)
-Promised Eternity
-Blinded by Light (Battle theme - still amazing even if played out in four years of trailers)
-Vile Peaks (it had its moments of beauty with the gregorian chants layered upon techno beats and piano work)
-Gapra Whitewood (love this one)
-The Gran Pulse L'Cie
-Can't Catch a Break
-Separate Paths
-Desperate Struggle (Hunt battle theme)
-Mysteries Abound
-Will to Fight
-Fangs Theme
-My Hands (lol)
I haven't listened to the endgame tracks yet.
-Prelude to FFXIII (the FMV when you first boot the game - It would be super-cool if this were also the prelude of future XIII games)
-Sabre's Edge (Boss Battle Theme)
-Promised Eternity
-Blinded by Light (Battle theme - still amazing even if played out in four years of trailers)
-Vile Peaks (it had its moments of beauty with the gregorian chants layered upon techno beats and piano work)
-Gapra Whitewood (love this one)
-The Gran Pulse L'Cie
-Can't Catch a Break
-Separate Paths
-Desperate Struggle (Hunt battle theme)
-Mysteries Abound
-Will to Fight
-Fangs Theme
-My Hands (lol)
I haven't listened to the endgame tracks yet.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
PulseRubeus said:
With all this negativity, I just want to reaffirm my love for the soundtrack. It's so good and almost always tone-appropriate.
Gapra Whitewood, Lake Bresha, Oerba Village.. some awesome boss battle music. Actually imo that's probably one of the best boss battle tracks of any FF title. Its actual effect when you're IN battle is mesmerizing. Even though the game is easy I still managed to tense up when this theme was on! :lol
All around great soundtrack :y:
Gapra Whitewood, Lake Bresha, Oerba Village.. some awesome boss battle music. Actually imo that's probably one of the best boss battle tracks of any FF title. Its actual effect when you're IN battle is mesmerizing. Even though the game is easy I still managed to tense up when this theme was on! :lol
All around great soundtrack :y:
DangerousDave
Member
Amir0x said:
I'm waiting to your destructive conclusions from 155 pages ago (100 posts per page). Finish the game, dammit!!!
Spoiler about last boss:
I don't understand what's the problem with Orphan. I died once in the first form (because i tried to keep the MED/SYN/SAB after his big attack instead of switching inmediatly to MED/MED/SEN), and then i 5-star him. The second transform was 2 minutes long, and he barely touched me (I made only 2-star because of the time reverse that made me lose the first minute of battle). For me, it was much more difficult the katana midboss
Fun Factor
Formerly FTWer
B-Rad Lascelle said:
Pretty much, I barely come by here anymore because it's just the same 6 or so people posting/whining over & over & over about the exact same things.
This is the best FF game since FF9 & 10 & the best traditional Japanese RPG released in years besides Lost Lost Odyssey.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Oh wow....FTWer said:
FTWer said:
Yeah this game sure is traditional alright. It's the least traditional RPG in the entire FF franchise!
Anyway, now you're whining there are too many haters. But it wasn't too long ago you were all trying to chase me and others away for not playing 30 hours into this tedious experience just to get a glimpse of Gran Pulse and the 10 or-so odd hours of even remotely decent game design.
"Oh, you can't say that until you play!" Now we play and you don't want to hear what we say.
This a thread for lovers and haters. All official threads are. If you can't take the heat when a few pages turn negative, then you're not allowed to comment when it's a love-in either and the haters are trying to have their voice heard.
- Status