-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Final Fantasy XIII |OT|
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
- Status
Die Squirrel Die
Member
Rahxephon91 said:
Bathandelus' desire to kill Orphan was a means to an end. He wanted the death of Orphan in order to bring about the destruction of Cocoon, as the death of that many people would be felt by the Maker, who would return to the world and reorder it so the Fal'Cie would no longer be slaves to their purpose.
However it turns out the Maker was watching all this time, and changed the parties focus, which is why they change back after turning C'ieth. They were now to destroy Orphan, but Fang and Vanille were to become Ragnarok and use that power to prevent Cocoon crashing into Pulse, thereby saving all human life.
However it turns out the Maker was watching all this time, and changed the parties focus, which is why they change back after turning C'ieth. They were now to destroy Orphan, but Fang and Vanille were to become Ragnarok and use that power to prevent Cocoon crashing into Pulse, thereby saving all human life.
Fimbulvetr
Member
^So in the end
they still didn't defy their fate. The Maker used a Deus Ex Machina as a cop out.
Die Squirrel Die
Member
Fimbulvetr said:
Pretty much. Although bear in mind, this is just my intepretation and some stuff is still sketchy.
I'm assuming that Lightning, Snow, Hope and Sazh not becoming crystals, Serah and Dajh reawakening and everybody losing their brand is meant to indicate that the Fal'Cie are no more. However why then are Fang and Vanille now crystals?
Die Squirrel Die said:
Because they still became Ragnarok. The transformation was complete. They sacrified themselves to put an end to the fal'Cie's reign thus allowing everyone else to break free.
Remember, Bart/Orphan made it very clear that they were envious of human will and determination being able to influence the outcome of their focus. They as fal'Cie are purely tools of the Maker and basically have no flexibility. After all, look at the final boss -- it only is what it is because l'Cie made it so. Barthandelus WANTED to merge with Orphan but did not have the power to do so himself. l'Cie can alter the outcome if they manage to do so before their brand turns them into Cie'th. Fang and Vanille did just that. They destroyed Cocoon but were able to crystallize it in the process, thus preventing the return of the Maker and the death of all people basically.
Remember, will and determination is the driving factor behind what was at play in the ending. Lots of ending analysis says that Light/Sazh/Hope/Snow being turned into Cie'th and back only happened because of their "will". No. Orphan tricked Fang and Vanille into thinking they had become Cie'th so she would become Ragnarok and fufill her Focus as Dysley wanted. She didn't buy it, at least not enough to make a full transformation, and when she failed the rest of them reappeared.
Smoke and mirrors, as Sazh said; appearing as Cie'th was no different than the weird Serah/Dajh illusions throughout the game. All a facade.
Remember, Bart/Orphan made it very clear that they were envious of human will and determination being able to influence the outcome of their focus. They as fal'Cie are purely tools of the Maker and basically have no flexibility. After all, look at the final boss -- it only is what it is because l'Cie made it so. Barthandelus WANTED to merge with Orphan but did not have the power to do so himself. l'Cie can alter the outcome if they manage to do so before their brand turns them into Cie'th. Fang and Vanille did just that. They destroyed Cocoon but were able to crystallize it in the process, thus preventing the return of the Maker and the death of all people basically.
Remember, will and determination is the driving factor behind what was at play in the ending. Lots of ending analysis says that Light/Sazh/Hope/Snow being turned into Cie'th and back only happened because of their "will". No. Orphan tricked Fang and Vanille into thinking they had become Cie'th so she would become Ragnarok and fufill her Focus as Dysley wanted. She didn't buy it, at least not enough to make a full transformation, and when she failed the rest of them reappeared.
Smoke and mirrors, as Sazh said; appearing as Cie'th was no different than the weird Serah/Dajh illusions throughout the game. All a facade.
Die Squirrel Die
Member
Aru said:
Regarding the spoiler.
It's mentioned in the Analects that unlock as you complete the Marks that during the War of Transgression, when Fang first became Ragnarok, the Maker intervened and drained Ragnarok/Fang of her power and put her into early crystal stasis.
When Lightning and co become human again, after turning into C'ieth, one of them, I think it's Sazh, mentions that their brands have changed. I can't remember what exactly lead me to believe this, but Fal'Cie brands are all the same. A different brand would indicate a focus from a different power.
When Lightning and co become human again, after turning into C'ieth, one of them, I think it's Sazh, mentions that their brands have changed. I can't remember what exactly lead me to believe this, but Fal'Cie brands are all the same. A different brand would indicate a focus from a different power.
So it's never explicitly stated, but that's what lead me to my conclusion.
I don't think
the Maker played a part in saving Cocoon. The group says, before choosing to defeat Orphan, that, given they have the power to defeat Orphan, they also have the power to save Cocoon. I can't remember the full quote, but it's something along those lines. Basically they realise they can free Cocoon from the Sanctum Fal'Cie by destroying Orphan and saving Cocoon.
Die Squirrel Die
Member
Cep said:
She.
I'm interested in the Maker stuff because supposedly that's what links the FNC games together. The Goddess in FFXIII is meant to be the same one in the portrait in Versus.
CruxisMana
Member
Die Squirrel Die said:
I get confused with all of the names. There's The Maker, The Goddess and Etro. Are they all refering to the same being?
Darthdevidem01
Banned
EDIT: How do you hide spoilerS?
CruxisMana
Member
Darthdevidem01 said:
[spoiler.][/spoiler]
Take out the full stop.
Darthdevidem01
Banned
Die Squirrel Die said:
Dude that was my speculation I made a day ago!!
I think the two gods, Hallowed Pulse & Lindzei are fighting in the Agito XIII universe, thats why theres a massive war going on there
And yeah the woman god, whats her name, yeah Etro she;s in the Versus world.
Thats the link between the games!!
Maybe the gods want to go back to pulse/cocoon because of what happened there.
Darthdevidem01
Banned
CruxisMana said:
Thanks
____________
Ok so their focus itself from the chapter 3 was to
SAVE COCOON
The flash of their focus they saw at the end of chapter 2 was from the ending, so their focus had to be to save cocoon.
Later on Fang/Vanille realie if ragnarok can destroy cocoon by breaking its shell, he can save it too by becoming a new shell for cocoon.
The flash of their focus they saw at the end of chapter 2 was from the ending, so their focus had to be to save cocoon.
Later on Fang/Vanille realie if ragnarok can destroy cocoon by breaking its shell, he can save it too by becoming a new shell for cocoon.
NaughtyCalibur
Member
Okay, how did you guys beat the Chapter 11 boss? I'm seriously tempted to just quit the game right here. Bosses with a trillion HP that cast Doom when you don't beat them in time is fucking stupid.
nelsonroyale
Member
Just started this, and the graphics are seriously amazing... ME2 sure has some beautiful textures, but the overall aesthetic here is unparalleled for an rpg...
Darthdevidem01
Banned
NaughtyCalibur said:
Grind grind grind
NaughtyCalibur
Member
Darthdevidem01 said:
Figured as much. FFX all over again. Yay.
Torquill
Member
Die Squirrel Die said:
Couple things wrong with that (imho). I don't see any reason to think their focus changed. Their focus was to destroy Cocoon and they succeeded. Focus achieved, crystals obtained., brands removed (at the ed they are gone, not just "sealed" blue). Their focus was always to destroy Cocoon and by extension Orphan. Anima wants this because he's a Pulse fal'Cie and the Cocoon/Lindzei fal'Cie keep plundering their sacred land for building materials. The fact that they become Ragnarok to stop it's outright obliteration is the cunning that solves their problem; how to destroy Cocoon but spare the citizens (though presumably many still die).
From the Analytics it seems more like that it was this Goddess Etros who keep intervening in the form of cooling Fang's Ragnarok rage, providing summons, and (possibly) the one responsible for sealing the brands.
From the Analytics it seems more like that it was this Goddess Etros who keep intervening in the form of cooling Fang's Ragnarok rage, providing summons, and (possibly) the one responsible for sealing the brands.
Die Squirrel Die said:
They lose their brands because they complete their focus. The fal'Cie that actually gave them their brands dies at the beginning of the game and the brands remained. It's not tied to that. How the timing of a crystal awakening is determined is unclear; but Vanille's "wake up" line suggests they had a role it making it so fast. Van and Fang are still crystals because it serves the ending...an element of the bitter-sweet perhaps. If you need a mythos explaination, perhaps they are maintaining the crystal cocoon /shrug
Die Squirrel Die said:
The Maker (either just Pulse, or Pulse for Pulse fal'cie and Lindzei for Cocoon fal'Cie depending on how much you want to read into the Analects) was not responsible for ending the War of Transgression. The goddess Etros was responsible for that, stated rather explicitly. The brands have changed in that they have been sealed in the way that Fang's was. This doesn't indicate a change of focus. A sealed brand does not progress. It's more reasonable (at least in my opinion) to assume that Etros sealed the brands, like she did Fang's at the end of the first War. Gods do not brand, Fal'Cie do. It's made pretty blatent that Pulse fal'Cie brands are the black things with the spikes and Cocoon brands are the mushroom design thingie you see (Cid's battle walls, etched onto Orphans blade, etc..)
Darthdevidem01
Banned
NaughtyCalibur said:
Note I play like a noob usually
CruxisMana
Member
Torquill said:
The painting.
Darthdevidem01
Banned
Torquill said:
Theres a new trailer?
But yeah they say she is the death god in that world.
But in the XIII world she is sympathetic
So theres something fishy there
Torquill
Member
It's about a year old now. It came with Advent Children Complete. Not very interesting unless you speak Japanese. All of the new content exists as a conversation that you can get a translation of.Darthdevidem01 said:
I read it more as the god responsible for helping others to the world beyond; which can be kinda sympathetic. Could explain why she's so "sad" apparently in 13.
Darthdevidem01
Banned
Cep said:
Because it robs people of the best thing in the world, life.
Is the Grim Reaper sympathetic?
EDIT: Well he is in The Sims 2....but yeah! :lol
Darthdevidem01
Banned
Torquill said:
hmm I guess.
But from what we saw in XIII Etro is still in the FF13 world because she is also responsible for sending eidolons to l'cie who are in trouble, so she had to have been there. But Hallowed Pulse & Lindzei definetely left the XIII world.
CruxisMana
Member
Torquill said:
It's been so long I've forgotten what the logo looks like.
:lol
D:
Die Squirrel Die
Member
Torquill said:
But the reward for completing a Focus is crystalstasis, not the removal of the brand. The game's pretty explicit about that. Fail a Focus - C'ieth. Complete a Focus - Crystal. It's part of the stigma of being a L'Cie, that you are damned if you do, damned if you don't. There's no precedent in the way the game presents L'Cie to account for them becoming normal humans again and losing their brands.
Darthdevidem01
Banned
Torquill said:She's also in charge of the door of souls though, if I recall correctly. So maybe she get's around more.
Anyone find the Analect about the ark's true purpose interesting? That's one I can't even begin to speculate on.
Very good point, she might be able to.
Yeah I found that analect & thats why I think a FFXIII-2 has to made
Its the one where it says arks were built long before cocoon to fight against an unknown evil on the horizon right? What could be the other evil?
God damn it the mythology is so interesting, why couldn't the story be that epic!!!
NaughtyCalibur
Member
Cep said:
Alright, I'll admit I grinded in FFX just so I could kill
Jecht
Torquill
Member
That's my major dissatisfaction. 12 got the epic but lost the characters. 13 has characters but lost the epic. Every second in Pulse I was waiting for an awesome cutscene that would provide some insight. I don't need to know every detail dammnit, but they really didn't deliver anythingDarthdevidem01 said:
.
Darthdevidem01
Banned
Torquill said:That's my major dissatisfaction. 12 got the epic but lost the characters. 13 has characters but lost the epic. Every second in Pulse I was waiting for an awesome cutscene that would provide some insight. I don't need to know every detail dammnit, but they really didn't deliver anything
That sums things up kinda well except well I found XII's story a bit boring.
The story in XIII is good but they are my fav characters in the series & the whole world/mythology they have made is some of the best they have made in years but they just didn't use it properly in the main story, the main story is good but kinds disappointing when you have everything else thats so awesome!!!!! Its so frustrating to see that go to waste.
I still think FF6 got it the best, in terms of balancing, characters, epicness, story, openness/linearity
Fimbulvetr
Member
Torquill said:
Lake Bresha doesn't change back despite the being who changed it in the first place dieing in the process of it's crystallization.
And neither do the crystal fires in a completely different area.
And neither do the crystal fires in a completely different area.
Darthdevidem01
Banned
Fimbulvetr said:
But if they wake up wouldn't they suffocate to death in the crystal?
Fimbulvetr
Member
Cep said:
That's because FFXIII has a (kinda) defined origin story.
There is no true origin story in Ivalice because magic beings are so common that there are lots of ways the world could have came to be.
In one of the origins, the land is actually the body of a dead god that was shaped by the other gods into something that would sustain life.
Most of them could just be taken as myths or just fantastic explanations for all the giant magic monsters roaming around(the Wyrm and the Ring).
Darthdevidem01 said:
Yet they were able to teleport Lightning and Co. out?
Fimbulvetr
Member
Darthdevidem01 said:
Death is a natural process that the lack of would lead, literally, to endless suffering.
Zoe said:
Didn't part of their character development involve letting go of the past?
Not to mention that they have friends in the present time period too now.
Not to mention that they have friends in the present time period too now.
NaughtyCalibur
Member
Anybody here have any good power leveling tips for someone stuck on Chapter 11 like myself? I found this spot in the Fifth Tier of the tower that has five of those Pulse Gladiator dudes that give 8k CP once defeated, but I'm having a hard time making them respawn. I'll go up the stairs and into the hallway, then walk back down and sometimes they'll be respawned, sometimes not.
Wondering if there's any other spots I should be aware of...
Wondering if there's any other spots I should be aware of...
- Status