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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark

Uthred

Member
Oh you mean make it easier. Personally I think it's fine the way it is and the fact that you can't just pick it up and master it straight away makes it even more interesting. Also the cooldown for Enochian isn't that long so if you do screw up it's not long before you can give it another go. It's a dramatic step up in complexity so I can see why people are struggling but it's only been out for like three weeks and people are calling for nerfs before even putting in the time to try and get to grips with it.

At the risk of sounding rude, perhaps you think its fine the way it is because you dont fully understand how it works. The cooldown for Enochian is a) a full minute and b) dropping Enochian is a massive DPS loss, you'll be doing significantly reduced damage before you can "give it another go". Depending on the mechanics of the fight you could be suffering that DPS loss for literally minutes.

I also disagree that its a dramatic step up in complexity, the basic rotation and the principles behind it are simple and has already been number crunched to within an inch of its life. The difficulty is because the timing on the rotation is so tight that any movement, unexpected events or issues beyond the players control (a bit of latency) can ruin it. Its not a question of complexity, the "challenge" is one of execution.

All of which fails to account for the fact that the challenges of implementing the rotation (especially in the games current end game meta) have no commensurate reward. Its largely arbitrarily difficult for the sake of it. People have had plenty of time to get to grips with it, its not as if its a radical new system, I mean it isnt even a priority system, its still a more or less set rotation. If Alexander has lots of tank and spanks then people pushing end game content will be happy. But even then I imagine they'll make some quality of life changes, oh, sorry, I meant, even then they'll probably "nerf it".
 

IvorB

Member
At the risk of sounding rude, perhaps you think its fine the way it is because you dont fully understand how it works. The cooldown for Enochian is a) a full minute and b) dropping Enochian is a massive DPS loss, you'll be doing significantly reduced damage before you can "give it another go". Depending on the mechanics of the fight you could be suffering that DPS loss for literally minutes.

I also disagree that its a dramatic step up in complexity, the basic rotation and the principles behind it are simple and has already been number crunched to within an inch of its life. The difficulty is because the timing on the rotation is so tight that any movement, unexpected events or issues beyond the players control (a bit of latency) can ruin it. Its not a question of complexity, the "challenge" is one of execution.

All of which fails to account for the fact that the challenges of implementing the rotation (especially in the games current end game meta) have no commensurate reward. Its largely arbitrarily difficult for the sake of it. People have had plenty of time to get to grips with it, its not as if its a radical new system, I mean it isnt even a priority system, its still a more or less set rotation. If Alexander has lots of tank and spanks then people pushing end game content will be happy. But even then I imagine they'll make some quality of life changes, oh, sorry, I meant, even then they'll probably "nerf it".

Well then don't lose your Enochian. It's literally just two timers you need to manage. I mention the cooldown because it's only that minute you need to maintain your Enochian with Blizzard IV before you can recast. If people mess up at the very beginning and need to wait the full minute then there's obviously something wrong there. Anyways what do I know; I'm just a regular punter like anyone else. If you feel it needs to be simplified then that's fine; I guess we'll see what happens. :)
 
I just rolled into trial roulette with SCH for the faster queue times, all three times got Bismarck Hard and our dps checks failed all 3 times I queued. So I rolled back in with my SMN, waited out the long queue time, and killed Bismarck without any issue. Maybe I wasn't DPS'ing enough as the SCH? But the DPS checks shouldn't all be reliant on healers DPS'ing... also one time we got 3 Bards lol.
 
If they don't adjust Enochian by the end of year I'll eat my hat (I don't own any though, har har).

For the record, I like the current state of Enochian. I think the idea is great, it just needs tweaking to make it feel a little more fluid.

I would like to know what the difference in DPS is 2.0 rotation vs 3.0. I haven't tested myself.
 

Apt101

Member
Does one have to still do a bunch of old quests prior to playing this new content? Only reason I am still holding off. I don't want to slog away for hours before I can enjoy an expansion when my character is already max level (pre expansion).
 

Aeana

Member
Belts are accessories. They tie outfits together. They don't protect you. That'd be silly.

Belts are left side equipment, and have thus in the past been treated as armor. You don't upgrade weathered belts with oil of time, you upgrade them with sands of time -- the same item you use to upgrade everything else on the left side. I expected some level of consistency from SE here.
 

Valonquar

Member
Does one have to still do a bunch of old quests prior to playing this new content? Only reason I am still holding off. I don't want to slog away for hours before I can enjoy an expansion when my character is already max level (pre expansion).

Yes you have to go through storyline to open the new areas, but all of it can be done in like 3 or 4 hours tops if you're at 50 already.
 

Apt101

Member
Yes you have to go through storyline to open the new areas, but all of it can be done in like 3 or 4 hours tops if you're at 50 already.

Thanks, I'll go on passing for now then. Once they allow me to merely resubscribe and hop into the new content I'll be back.
 

Ken

Member
Belts are left side equipment, and have thus in the past been treated as armor. You don't upgrade weathered belts with oil of time, you upgrade them with sands of time -- the same item you use to upgrade everything else on the left side. I expected some level of consistency from SE here.

Consistency is nice but it was always painful spending those items on belt upgrades.

If anything the change should have occurred awhile ago.
 

LegatoB

Member
Thanks, I'll go on passing for now then. Once they allow me to merely resubscribe and hop into the new content I'll be back.
Well, I think you're going to be waiting a long time, since Heavensward follows directly on a bunch of plot threads (and characters) introduced in the 2.X patch quests.
 

SRTtoZ

Member
Yea I don't agree at all with people who say the "Enochian mechanic is fine as is, we just need time". I have the rotation down pretty well into muscle memory at this point and it still sucks. Don't get me wrong, I love the new spells, I like the idea behind it, it just gives you ZERO wiggle room in regards to movement because of your AF stacks. When I cast Enochian>Fire4 and then all of a sudden have to move, I can't get a cast of Fire4 in again without going with a fire 1 or wasting my Swiftcast. Its so tight that even if you move a sliver your stacks might fall off. Of course you can then just stop casting another Fire4 and go with more Fire 1's to keep it rolling when you need to but then its a DPS loss from our old rotation, so why not use that instead? Its clunky and not fun and as limited as our movement was in 2.x, its way worse now. It bugs me to know this would have been worked out if SE used a PTR so we could take care of all of these balance issues before this awesome expansion launched.

Edit: I also forgot the fact that they ignored Lightning (no not FFXIII Lightning) in the expansion. I used to love the proc playstyle we had but thats pretty much gone because its very hard to fit your procs in with the 2s global cooldown when every second matters with Enochian/AF.
 
For the GAF guild, I applied in-game, and then received a tell when I logged in today to apply on Guildwork. I've done that, do I need to re-apply in-game?

Character name is Rumrum Triplets

Edit: I'm in, thanks!
 

Zomba13

Member
Thanks, I'll go on passing for now then. Once they allow me to merely resubscribe and hop into the new content I'll be back.

Did you do any of the patch content? Because if not, that is new content to you. It's stuff that opens up new fights and new plot threads.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
Got to run Sohm Al for the first time. Maybe my favorite dungeon I've been to so far. Really excellent music/setting and the mechanics were all straightforward enough to be easy to interpret while still being engaging. Summoner is finally starting to come into its own, particularly with AOE options on the table. It's probably not really a big deal, but getting three commendations off a run feels really satisfying.
 

Uthred

Member
If they don't adjust Enochian by the end of year I'll eat my hat (I don't own any though, har har).

For the record, I like the current state of Enochian. I think the idea is great, it just needs tweaking to make it feel a little more fluid.

I would like to know what the difference in DPS is 2.0 rotation vs 3.0. I haven't tested myself.

I recall seeing someone comment in a thread on BLM parses that the 2.5 rotation was ~30% lower than 3.0, but I cant seem to re-locate the reference so take that with a grain of salt.
 

Kenai

Member
Watching the credits roll for the 3.0 story's end. That was good. That was REAL good. FFXIV continues to deliver. Looking forward to the upcoming patches.
 

SRTtoZ

Member
I recall seeing someone comment in a thread on BLM parses that the 2.5 rotation was ~30% lower than 3.0, but I cant seem to re-locate the reference so take that with a grain of salt.

I'd say its about 25% give or take. I'm at ilvl 166 and parse ~1000dps with the new rotation and ~750dps with the old rotation. Keep in mind the old rotation is a lot more mobile than the new one so in real fights I guarantee these numbers are much closer.
 

Kenai

Member
Thanks, I'll go on passing for now then. Once they allow me to merely resubscribe and hop into the new content I'll be back.

It doesn't take very long at all if you are 50 already. It also gives context to the expansion and everything else going forward, so it's difficult to say if/when that will happen. Wouldn't surprise me if they stuck with it through at least the rest of this expansion.
 

kiryogi

Banned
I really don't see any issues at all with enochian currently. BLM has just become more About priorities. I don't find movement really hindering myself either. If there is movement involved than you'd use a f4/f1/f4/f1 rotation. Thunder still has a place, but it's just more on the back burner now. And let's be honest, as they add new skills, is that really going to work out for controller players? I think we'll reach a point where old skills will be obsolete and replaced.
 

Rafterman

Banned
Yes you have to go through storyline to open the new areas, but all of it can be done in like 3 or 4 hours tops if you're at 50 already.

If he's a fresh pre-patches 50 it will take him much longer than 3-4 hours. I quit before the first large patch and it took me a week of playing no less than a couple hours a day.
 

Uthred

Member
I really don't see any issues at all with enochian currently. BLM has just become more About priorities. I don't find movement really hindering myself either. If there is movement involved than you'd use a f4/f1/f4/f1 rotation. Thunder still has a place, but it's just more on the back burner now. And let's be honest, as they add new skills, is that really going to work out for controller players? I think we'll reach a point where old skills will be obsolete and replaced.

Interesting, how do you feel its more about priorities? What are these priorities? While you dont find movement hindering how do you square that away with the fact that parses (actual numbers vs feelings) show that movement has a disastrous effect on DPS? Or that using Thunder is an active DPS loss (again actual numbers vs feelings)? Regarding old skills replacing new, no-ones complaining that a hypothetical Thunder 4 invalidates 1-3, theyre complaining that an entire branch of magic isnt viable. As for controller players, there are other jobs with many more skills being used in a fight than BLM and they manage, they didnt make Thunder spells useless to save controller users. Or that based on parses a BLM only has a slight DPS lead over similar classes and only against training dummies? The effort vs reward (or more importantly the effort vs fun) of a BLM is wonky at the moment
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Added some extra images to the OP. Still trying to decide on whether to take the preface off or not. I think it's good to put it up front and center about the FC thing since a lot of new players misunderstand or don't pay attention to the details. Especially when it comes to our server, times you can actually make a new character on it, and the whole thing with FC Applications and Guildworks.
 
I'm going to try this game out tonight with the demo, and looking for some GAF advice on class/jobs. I realize the job choice is a long way off, but good planning helps.

I'm new to FF but not to MMOs. I did a lot of tanking and healing on World of Warcraft a few years ago, if that helps. How does tanking and healing compare to WoW? Also, will healing be more difficult playing with a PS4 controller versus a mouse and keyboard?

I'm going to start out with a tank, since that's where I usually gravitate. Can someone give me a quick breakdown of the three jobs? From what I've gathered from scavenging around, it sounds like paladins are the most defensive with the least damage output, warriors are dps oriented and a bit less sturdy, and dark knights are somewhere in between. Does that sound accurate?

I don't imagine DK will even be an option since it's an expansion character, so I guess it really comes down between paladin and warrior. Is one preferred for end game tanking? Is one more beginner friendly?
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
I'm going to try this game out tonight with the demo, and looking for some GAF advice on class/jobs. I realize the job choice is a long way off, but good planning helps.

I'm new to FF but not to MMOs. I did a lot of tanking and healing on World of Warcraft a few years ago, if that helps. How does tanking and healing compare to WoW? Also, will healing be more difficult playing with a PS4 controller versus a mouse and keyboard?

I'm going to start out with a tank, since that's where I usually gravitate. Can someone give me a quick breakdown of the three jobs? From what I've gathered from scavenging around, it sounds like paladins are the most defensive with the least damage output, warriors are dps oriented and a bit less sturdy, and dark knights are somewhere in between. Does that sound accurate?

I don't imagine DK will even be an option since it's an expansion character, so I guess it really comes down between paladin and warrior. Is one preferred for end game tanking? Is one more beginner friendly?

You'll probably like Warrior more.

You'll need to level a Gladiator anyway to get a skill to cross class called Provoke (Needed for High End Content)
 
You'll probably like Warrior more.

Okay. What is the opening class I choose for warrior? (Sorry for the noob questions, I haven't found a good job/class resource or forum yet)

:edit: Posted the response before the Gladiator part of your answer. Thanks a bunch!
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Okay. What is the opening class I choose for warrior? (Sorry for the noob questions, I haven't found a good job/class resource or forum yet)

Marauder turns into Warrior at level 30 when you have a Gladiator at 15 as well.

Gladiator turns into Paladin when level 30 and Conjurer (Precursor to White Mage) is 15.

I'd recommend reviewing this page

You'll never got stuck in a class/job though. You can level all of them.

The three new classes for Heavensward are still kind of up in the air and we should have a more analytical review of them by the time you are able to use them. For now pick a class you'd like out of the ones available. You can also become a Ninja later on by doing a quest. The caveat is you can't start the game as one.
 

chrono01

Member
Concerning BLM, I enjoy the idea behind Enochian and Fire IV/Blizzard IV, but I still feel that the rotation is way too strict, given a lot of the fights and their high mobility.

BLM have always been immobile by nature, but building a new rotation that's reliant on keeping an eye on timers making sure that they don't expire [including one that's only good for 10 seconds after each application], along with fights that have a tendency to spawn numerous AOE and/or reasons to continually keep moving, and you have a headache. It will become easier with higher SSPD [something I'm really hoping is in abundance on Alexander gear[ but right now with our current SSPD, the timing for Fire IV --> Fire IV --> Fire I [outside of Ley Lines] is extremely close. If you need to move even an inch, you're probably not going to get that Fire I off in-time, unless you have Swiftcast or a proc'd Firestarter available. As you well know, dropping your Astral Fire/Umbral Ice, especially during your second Enochian rotation, isn't something that you want to happen.

I'm not going to ask SE to buff Fire IV so it adds Astral Fire or anything insane like that. However, if they could maybe add a few seconds to the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice mechanic, so if you do need to move for a reason [spoiler, you're definitely going to need to move] or the boss disappears or becomes immune, you'll have a better chance to resume your standard rotation without issue. I feel as though the actual Enochian timers are balanced well enough [maybe adding a few seconds to the first refresh would be nice, but I don't expect too much in that department], since after your second rotation the ability is up and ready to be used once more. The crux of my issue with BLM at the moment stems from Astral Fire and the frustration of trying to do my Fire IV x2/Fire I x1 rotation, while attempting to keep Astral Fire up with movement. I could fall back to Fire IV x1/Fire I x1 to be more safe, but that would most definitely be a DPS loss.

The expansion is still early on, and we took a pretty substantial hit to our SSPD in the scaling from 50 --> 60. We'll see how BLM play once Alexander hits and we continue to gear up. The fundamentals are there and they work, there's just a few thorns we need to work around first.
 

kiryogi

Banned
Interesting, how do you feel its more about priorities? What are these priorities? While you dont find movement hindering how do you square that away with the fact that parses (actual numbers vs feelings) show that movement has a disastrous effect on DPS? Or that using Thunder is an active DPS loss (again actual numbers vs feelings)? Regarding old skills replacing new, no-ones complaining that a hypothetical Thunder 4 invalidates 1-3, theyre complaining that an entire branch of magic isnt viable. As for controller players, there are other jobs with many more skills being used in a fight than BLM and they manage, they didnt make Thunder spells useless to save controller users. Or that based on parses a BLM only has a slight DPS lead over similar classes and only against training dummies? The effort vs reward (or more importantly the effort vs fun) of a BLM is wonky at the moment

Priorities based on the flow of the fight and keeping Enochian up at all costs.The typical rotation would be F4-F4-F1-F4-F4. But if you have a movement intensive fight, you'd switch over to the safer F4-F1-F4-F1. Not to mention also having to make decisions based on the timings of your fire and enochian timers on when to renew, and how to renew. Be it keeping swiftcast and sharpcast around for a certain part of the rotation or not. And nowhere did I say thunder was important or necessary, it's simply on the backburner now and only used when you're waiting on a mana tick or something. From what I've seen, folks open with it after B3 and again during the first B4 rotation depending if you bursted or not in the opener.
 

Gnomist

Member
I would be shocked if BLM and other jobs don't get some changes after we see Alexander fights. Perhaps they will adjust the buff timers like they did for Greased Lightning in early 2.0. Or maybe they'll tell us they designed these fights around NOT having close to 100% uptime on some of these buffs. Or maybe they'll just straight up change some mechanics if they feel certain ones aren't working out. It's an MMO. The one thing you can count on is that things will change/evolve/get fixed as time goes on. It is surprising some jobs shipped in the shape they are in, but maybe those are just the "mac version" jobs and need a little more time to be polished up? Best thing to do is make your feedback heard on their forums.
 
Got my Bismarck EX clear tonight, which was very exciting. The group I was with gave Ravana a few tries, it seems a lot more challenging so far. Still, I really want my Hive weapon so I'll do my best to learn it.
 

Hasemo

(;・∀・)ハッ?
I tried Ravana EX for the first time yesterday and was a bit confused by all the stuff that's happening during the dives phase. Other than that I think I'm used to the battle and I'll try to clear it today.

Unrelated, but does anyone know if there's a way to make PF refresh faster without doing it manually? I'm waiting for hunt parties to pop up, but since it refreshes every few minutes when/when I do it manually it's sometimes too late.
 

Uthred

Member
However, if they could maybe add a few seconds to the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice mechanic, so if you do need to move for a reason [spoiler, you're definitely going to need to move] or the boss disappears or becomes immune, you'll have a better chance to resume your standard rotation without issue.

It's be nice if there was a single HW dungeon where you dont lose your target due to immunity or disappearances ;)

Priorities based on the flow of the fight and keeping Enochian up at all costs.The typical rotation would be F4-F4-F1-F4-F4. But if you have a movement intensive fight, you'd switch over to the safer F4-F1-F4-F1. Not to mention also having to make decisions based on the timings of your fire and enochian timers on when to renew, and how to renew. Be it keeping swiftcast and sharpcast around for a certain part of the rotation or not. And nowhere did I say thunder was important or necessary, it's simply on the backburner now and only used when you're waiting on a mana tick or something. From what I've seen, folks open with it after B3 and again during the first B4 rotation depending if you bursted or not in the opener.

I suppose it comes down to semantics but I wouldnt consider that a priority system in the way the terms generally applied to MMO playstyles, BLM still very much have a set rotation, one which you might have to break but one which you're always striving for. As such it isnt really a priority system, or if it is the priorities are so basic as to render the term meaningless i.e. keeping Enochian up being a priority is tantamount to saying keeping AF up is a priority or doing DPS is a priority. But as I said, semantics. Thunder is basically meaningless now, you might use Thunder 1 once in a blue moon, but even if it procs you likely dont want to waste the GCD to use that proc. If people are opening with Thunder theyre looking at a hard 50 DPS loss which only grows over time.

I'm also not sure what you mean when you say F4-F1-F4-F1 is safer than F4-F4-F1-F4-F4, after all F1 and F4 have the same recast time, so the first rotation listed there isnt any quicker and is a hard DPS loss. I suppose its safer in that it keeps your AF up? But isnt that meaningless because the only reason you want it up is to empower your F4's which youre compromising by peppering in all those F1's? Really the "safe" movement option is to drop back to 2.5's rotation, which, as discussed above, is a sizeable DPS loss.

Unrelated, but does anyone know if there's a way to make PF refresh faster without doing it manually? I'm waiting for hunt parties to pop up, but since it refreshes every few minutes when/when I do it manually it's sometimes too late.

I usually just close it and re-open it which refreshes it, not ideal but Im not sure if theres another way to force a refresh
 

chrono01

Member
honestly I like neverreap more than fractal. it could be due to the fact that i get fractal like 80% of the time
I do enjoy that Neverreap is generally faster than Fractal [generally, depending on whether wipes happen or not], but I prefer the bosses/music of Fractal more.

I seem to get Fractal a lot more often than Neverreap too, something I'm very grateful for.
 

Hasney

Member
Thanks, I'll go on passing for now then. Once they allow me to merely resubscribe and hop into the new content I'll be back.

They won't, at least I'd be surprised if they did. Its a story based game SK they want you to continue that story and I don't believe FFXI has any story skipping either.
 

chrono01

Member
That last boss of Neverreap is super tedious to deal with...would be nice if we had more dungeons for expert roulette.
I was really hoping Library would be one of those. I love that place, interesting bosses/music, and just pleasant to run through. Thus, it's a shame I'll be running it so rarely. :/

There's always the eventual "hard" version, I guess.
 

Hasemo

(;・∀・)ハッ?
The dungeon distribution feels kind of off. I guess it's cool that you have a few as you level, but honestly with the amount of sidequests and experience to be gained from other sources, I guess most people will run them a few times max, unless they get them in the Low Level roulette (which is quite rare).
On the other hand, expert roulette, which is supposed to be cleared daily consists of 2 dungeons and will probably stay this way until patch 3.1.

At least I got all Law pieces of equipment I wanted and since I'm only maining one class, I don't have to run the roulettes for a while.
 

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
Well I just leveled monk as my DPS class. Logic is, I don't really wanna play dragoon even after all the buffs I just hate jumps, Ninja is fun but Mudra lag from europe is annoying as hell(especially when the animation fires but the skill doesn't, that's the best), so Monk it is, at least for melee DPS.

Pretty funny that once I hit 60 on my monk, I bought the chest and weapon and proceeded to do more damage than I've seen a DF DPS do in Fractal on my first run. Haven't done that many runs yet though on my AST, so haven't seen that many DPS, but people doing 500-600 tends to be the norm, even though the bosses are glorified dummies(last boss maybe a bit less so, but still).
So I guess now would be a good time to ask. How much does this apply?:
zRWVWQV.png
It's been my impression that MNK is in a weird place right now. I hear more complaints about NIN and BLM getting complex, and BRD and MCH being underwhelming. SMN and DRG have become the new bandwagon so MNK is like this semi-bandwagon class right now.

What's so funny is that this game continues the trend of FFXI dps flavor of the month theme (I'm sure all MMOs do) that takes what the playerbase considered the worst jobs and pump them up to near God like, if only for a time.
At any rate they're nice to see for a change and I see this thing where they're like walking around buffing up to Raptor III(or Couerl?). What's that? I ask cause I got myself up to level 50 with MNK awhile back, but I always felt like I wasn't playing right.
 

IvorB

Member
Priorities based on the flow of the fight and keeping Enochian up at all costs.The typical rotation would be F4-F4-F1-F4-F4. But if you have a movement intensive fight, you'd switch over to the safer F4-F1-F4-F1. Not to mention also having to make decisions based on the timings of your fire and enochian timers on when to renew, and how to renew. Be it keeping swiftcast and sharpcast around for a certain part of the rotation or not. And nowhere did I say thunder was important or necessary, it's simply on the backburner now and only used when you're waiting on a mana tick or something. From what I've seen, folks open with it after B3 and again during the first B4 rotation depending if you bursted or not in the opener.

Yeah this is the way I see it. If people know they will need to move why would anyone be trying to squeeze two Fire IV's together? One needs to make decisions based on what's happening in the moment-to-moment. It's kind of depressing to see that what people seem to want is a set list of skills they can just fire off in order every time no matter the circumstances.
 

Hasney

Member
Connection issues on Ultros? Got booted out, then had 125 in the queue, got to loading and it booted me straight out with 231 in the queue.
 
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