It was Pandemonium Warden but yeah, that was crazy lol
Staying 3 hours closed in Dragons Aery with a bunch of bots waiting for a dragon to appear was a miserable experience, that's for sure.
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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
It was Pandemonium Warden but yeah, that was crazy lol
Staying 3 hours closed in Dragons Aery with a bunch of bots waiting for a dragon to appear was a miserable experience, that's for sure.
Wait you can't? I thought they learned from that huge mistake they made with Coil of Bahamut. If you can't then they messed up big time and the cycle will continue.
Savage will have the same weekly lockout, one boss kill per week , what drops is what you get. It's an MMO, they aren't going to let you farm till the item you want drops, that would defeat the purpose.
Edit: Also, "huge mistake" Their bottom line doesn't appear to be suffering much.
Azzurri
Member
Y'shtola is now physically blind as a result of her trip through the aether. She was more or less a free-floating spirit in the lifestream and it changed her in ways we don't yet know beyond her eyes. Matoya berated her for using the forbidden teleport magic because in order to see Y'shtola now has to sense the aether around her, which is draining her life.
It really is a great deal of fun. The best mmo out there in a shrinking market. And the rate of updates makes it far and away the best value per dollar imo.
Having read through the last 3 pages or so of this thread I can't figure out how people are so wholy missing the point Tabris was trying to make. Instead they just pidgeon-holed him as a FFXI nostalgia guy when really his point was that this game has absolutely no variety in endgame. Which is undeniable, alt classes and crafting aren't alternate endgame content.
He was referencing FFXI because (as he openly says multiple times) its his only other MMO so its his only point of reference. He asked questions about how WoW works as well. I mean wanting AV and PW style content is crazy but that's about the only thing he said that was nonsensical.
Why wouldn't you want more stuff to do at endgame? Why wouldn't you want variety in content? I know I do. Something like a modern take on Salvage or Dynamis would be pretty cool and interesting IMO.
He was referencing FFXI because (as he openly says multiple times) its his only other MMO so its his only point of reference. He asked questions about how WoW works as well. I mean wanting AV and PW style content is crazy but that's about the only thing he said that was nonsensical.
Why wouldn't you want more stuff to do at endgame? Why wouldn't you want variety in content? I know I do. Something like a modern take on Salvage or Dynamis would be pretty cool and interesting IMO.
PhilipCostigan's point is right on. The issue is content burnout.
FFXIV doesn't create much content so they create systems that require you to run that same content over and over and over. Trust me, we'll be so sick of Alex Normal in a couple weeks.
And as pointed out, WoW had a lot more active raids on expansion releases to run, so not just a FFXI thing.
I also don't understand why everyone is defending this. Why wouldn't you want different things to run each week then the same single raid?
Didn't matter, by the time I and a decent amount of the server was 75, all this content (this is my whole point) was available to us.
FFXIV doesn't create much content so they create systems that require you to run that same content over and over and over. Trust me, we'll be so sick of Alex Normal in a couple weeks.
And as pointed out, WoW had a lot more active raids on expansion releases to run, so not just a FFXI thing.
I also don't understand why everyone is defending this. Why wouldn't you want different things to run each week then the same single raid?
Didn't matter, by the time I and a decent amount of the server was 75, all this content (this is my whole point) was available to us.
People number 1 complain about coil was the inability go back in and help other members after they got their win for the week. It forced this static group game play that people hate and it caused users to log in once a week. Is that how an MMO suppose to play now a days? Everyone ok with this?
I'm sorry but there are 8 dungeons, 2 ex fights, a raid, hunts, crafting and gathering, triple triad, chocobo racing, fates, leves, minions and mounts to get, pvp, a 24 man raid soon enough...there's more than enough variety. Just because it isn't the type of variety you want doesn't mean there isn't variety.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
Most of the complaints are for the endgame content and lack of variety. It's generally a problem most MMOs have in keeping people interested and playing after the meat of the game has been completed. XIV is really geared towards its story so the endgame offerengs have been fairly sparse.
I don't know if it's even possible to provide interesting content that isn't hardcore raids that won't be burned through in a week.
I don't know if it's even possible to provide interesting content that isn't hardcore raids that won't be burned through in a week.
plutoknight
Member
I think they're still going to let you go and help others a la Final coil did, but you can't get loot if you've killed it that week?
Contrary to what people might think, I have loads of fun with this game. I don't play anything I don't find fun and FFXIV has really been messing up my backlog lately.
I wasn't a part of the original discussion, I just get tired of seeing Riou talk about FFXI /doze. I'm still in the wait and see camp on end game content. Of course I want more but the game just effectively entered 2.0. (1.0 was trash and doesn't exist in my eyes). With one major expac under their belt, they are starting to get to the point where they have their formula down and its time to either expand or get comfy. I hope they expand, of course, and based on what they did with this expac, I'm unsettled because they aren't moving in the direction I want but they aren't really moving away from what I want either. We're in a holding pattern and the only real issue with it is if they decide to just hold indefinitely.
They already addressed that point back with final coil of bahamut. You can go in to help at the expense of less loot and the inability to roll on anything if you, yourself have already cleared your lockout for the week. I mean, aside from that though, static gameplay is a staple in every MMO I've played. You have your set team that you run each week with for the highest level PvE stuff.
They better bring back the 4/4 system that popped up in FCoB; that was fantastic. It also didn't allow you to rerun for drops, just to help out, but 4/4 is directly responsible for probably most of the fun I had in the 2.4/2.5 era so if they remove the partial clear group option in 3.x I probably will rage.
Exactly two in that list are even moderately challenging. One of those things you can do successfully exactly once a week once you figure out how to consistently do it. The other, the EX Primals, are already being outgeared two weeks into the content. If your interest is in challenging fights and that feeling when everything actually works and people are maximizing their classes and executing well, there's not really a ton to go on. Nobody seems to be begrudging the game the existence of its endless string of grinds, I don't know why people are so invested in pretending there's not ample opportunity for growth in the challenge area.
If the vast majority of players aren't clearing the challenging content that is there, then there is not ample opportunity for growth.
Yep. I can't think of a single MMO that really ever succeeded in pleasing fans with endgame content, especially during the honeymoon period of a new expansion. Though only the crazies/rushers really ever feel scorned and get vocal about it. Usually takes me weeks to experience what many of the complainers consume in the opening weekend however.
Bummer to hear that Alexander came and went as an almost non-event though. I only just stepped into HW finally last night, but was hoping that the forced delay to allow players to relax and gear up at launch meant there would be a real mechanic/gear hurdle to overcome. Maybe with Savage, but it is disheartening to hear that by the time I hit ilvl to try it myself, it will feel like a total non-event.
Spiritreaver
Member
I've been having this weird issue since HW launch (since using the DX11 client) where my nameplates will sometimes screw up and contain plates from others.
if I pan away and then back, the nameplates fix. Maybe it's an issue with Occulsion Culling? I'll test it.
It's not that annoying except in dungeons where mobs will have PT member names, lol.
EDIT: Tested, still borked.
if I pan away and then back, the nameplates fix. Maybe it's an issue with Occulsion Culling? I'll test it.
It's not that annoying except in dungeons where mobs will have PT member names, lol.
EDIT: Tested, still borked.
Savage will not be a non-event. People will be whining that they can't clear the first turn all the way through 3.1, I'm sure.
Azzurri
Member
People are arguing for more variety endgame progression, the other stuff you mentioned is just fluff like every mmo has. And pvP is a joke in this game. You know what retains subs progressing and bettering you character by giving people multiple ways of doing so, which isn't really the case here. It just ushers you from point A to B in terms of progressing gear wise.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
The main problem with challenging content is justifying the pricetag in making it- WoW famously had Naxx and Sunwell were something like 1% of the population of the game saw it, leading to Wrath reiteration of Naxx, the most faceroll raid in the game and the eventual introduction of LFR. I don't think anyone's against more content, but FFXIV has so far proved to be unable to produce more than 4 raid level bosses every 3 months. Therefore the only answers are they increase spending and manpower (which has diminishing returns, as you can see looking at WoW's expansion cycles) or to cut into casual content to produce it.
plutoknight
Member
I think Savage mode will be the real test -- much like how Mythic is currently in WoW.
I like the Normal mode, because it allows me to casually gear up and clear content, but I'm also part of a semi-casual raiding static, so I'm pumped for Savage because I love difficult fights.
Endgame content specifically, there are:
2 (arguably 3, I guess) dungeons (the rest aren't lvl60).
2 EX fights
1 "raid" atm
Gathering and crafting aren't endgame PvE content, they are supplemental.
Leves are for levelling only. Occasionally for mats.
Minions and mounts aren't endgame specific, you can (and do) get them throughout the levelling process.
Triple Triad and Chocobo racing can all be done well before lvl60.
PvP is awful and the queue times are insane.
I do all of these things and enjoy them quite a lot but this is a discussion about endgame PvE content, not listing everything you can do in the game at any stage. There's 2 dungeons you have to run over and over again for times, there's 2 EX Primals, 1 of which is relevant (why didn't they give Bismark rings instead of inferior weapons!) and easy-mode Alex which is a huge RNGfest. There is a distinct lack of endgame PvE content. No argument IMO.
No, there's not a ton of reason to invest heavily in specifically developing challenging content. That doesn't mean there's not room to grow the content. I don't think Savage SCoB was an inherently bad idea--it was probably relatively cheap to create--but they failed to provide enough reward and incentive to get people to try it out (placing it on the same lockout as normal Second Coil was a terrible idea.) I'd like to see them try again; they make the challenging endgame raid because they apparently want players who enjoy challenging endgame content. There is nothing wrong with suggesting that group could use moderately more attention. If they don't want to keep that playerbase involved, why bother with Alex Savage in the first place?
I understand the economics of MMOs, but they need to start being smarter with their content. Refresh old content for existing player base.
i.e. Make a level 60 8-man version of CT-ST-WoD. You can normalize all of them to be a similar difficulty (maybe slightly higher with each), give the mobs adjusted stats for 8-man level 60 so there's a bit of a gear check difficulty and then make the 3-way intersection sections into 2-way intersection sections where the PT splits up into 2.
So there's a decent amount of work involved with balancing and play testing, as well as re-designing some of the levels. But all the artistic work and asset work is all done, so it would be significantly less development work then a new raid, but provides a new experience (8-manning content that was for 24-man, adjusted difficulty to level 60s, etc)
Again, doesn't need to be hardcore. Just needs to be a decent difficulty like an EX Primal so everyone can enjoy.
Then once you make that content, you should make it so you can only run it a couple times a week. Why do we gotta gear up so quick? Repeat this process for other content, so every week you have a varied schedule of things and aren't running the same content over and over. (this is what bothers me most about this game, need to have rewards spread out among content more evenly so you're not re-running the same thing).
Why do you take this as me shitting on FFXIV? I'm talking about what I currently don't like about the game (but I love a lot about the game as well) and I'm using another game as an example that did this one thing right. It would be like having a conversation on Call of Duty and talking about how Medal of Honour had a feature you liked that you wish was in CoD. (I've never played either so not sure if that's the case but you get my point)
i.e. Make a level 60 8-man version of CT-ST-WoD. You can normalize all of them to be a similar difficulty (maybe slightly higher with each), give the mobs adjusted stats for 8-man level 60 so there's a bit of a gear check difficulty and then make the 3-way intersection sections into 2-way intersection sections where the PT splits up into 2.
So there's a decent amount of work involved with balancing and play testing, as well as re-designing some of the levels. But all the artistic work and asset work is all done, so it would be significantly less development work then a new raid, but provides a new experience (8-manning content that was for 24-man, adjusted difficulty to level 60s, etc)
Again, doesn't need to be hardcore. Just needs to be a decent difficulty like an EX Primal so everyone can enjoy.
Then once you make that content, you should make it so you can only run it a couple times a week. Why do we gotta gear up so quick? Repeat this process for other content, so every week you have a varied schedule of things and aren't running the same content over and over. (this is what bothers me most about this game, need to have rewards spread out among content more evenly so you're not re-running the same thing).
Why do you take this as me shitting on FFXIV? I'm talking about what I currently don't like about the game (but I love a lot about the game as well) and I'm using another game as an example that did this one thing right. It would be like having a conversation on Call of Duty and talking about how Medal of Honour had a feature you liked that you wish was in CoD. (I've never played either so not sure if that's the case but you get my point)
Yeah this thread has become kind of unpleasant to read through.
And people burn through the story on the first two days of early access then complain about a lack of content.. stretch it out y'all. After Alex, You have three months before the next big chunk of stuff to do.
For me, FF14 is like this chill MMO I can play with a friend or two and we just like,do cool looking dungeons together, talk about the story and nostalgia out over all the Final Fantasy content in it.
I'm not in it for the challenge at all and the moment I have seen all the unique content I am interested in (not the moment my character is maxxed out) I unsub and come back when new content I want to see is in.
I'm pretty sure lots of people do the above.
I'm not in it for the challenge at all and the moment I have seen all the unique content I am interested in (not the moment my character is maxxed out) I unsub and come back when new content I want to see is in.
I'm pretty sure lots of people do the above.
Razzorn34
Member
It isn't. Thing is, most people aren't even close to running Alex yet, let alone even hitting level 60. As usual, it's just the very vocal hardcore minority. Story trumps hardcore offerings in this game, and has since the beginning. Going into it with a hardcore mentality is just going to make you frustrated. I've been subbed since ARR released, and I've never felt like there wasn't enough content being released. I'm not a super casual player either.
Devilgunman
Member
People rushed to LV60 in a few days then complained about lack of contents? Hmmmm I've seen this before.
You have to realize that majority aren't even hit end game yet. Hell, a lot of them just stated and have no idea what Ishgard looks like.
Tbh, that's really the way to play FFXIV.
You have to realize that majority aren't even hit end game yet. Hell, a lot of them just stated and have no idea what Ishgard looks like.
Tbh, that's really the way to play FFXIV.
The most unsettling thing they did with this patch was made it so you can go 7-man into anything thing and not be level or ilvl capped. That really destroyed any respect people had for old content. I know no one is really running the old stuff but no one was stopping them from creating reasons to go back. They have 3 real raids to pull from pre-3.0 and they could have had a "legacy" system where each raid was spotlighted per week or per month or whatever time frame they wanted to use. And while it was spotlighted, it could have dropped some type of gear that lead to horizontal progression. Instead, they just add a way to steamroll it and call it a day.
All this content is there and built already, it should always be re-tuned and updated for new play when possible. It should never be a substitute for new stuff but there's no reason not to have it there as a less efficient form of progress.
This is a game with vertical gear progression and it has been stated multiple times before by YoshiP that they do not want to confuse players with an abundance of gear choices. If they start adding more content catered towards the 10% that actually will do the content, what rewards will they be providing as incentive?
FFXI had horizontal progression, so you were still grinding the same content five years later because the gear was still relevant. The horizontal progression led to the variety in that game. Imagine if we still had to grind first coil, second coil, savage second coil, and final coil in addition to Alexander normal, and savage all in the same week. Lots of variety!
FFXI had horizontal progression, so you were still grinding the same content five years later because the gear was still relevant. The horizontal progression led to the variety in that game. Imagine if we still had to grind first coil, second coil, savage second coil, and final coil in addition to Alexander normal, and savage all in the same week. Lots of variety!
It's actually funny how it went for my friends and me:
We all played the beta and loved the game so we all played on release day too.
My friends got to 50 and did the content at the time (no raiding) and stopped playing.
I didn't have much time and only got to like lvl 30 and also stopped playing.
Then we didn't look at the game again AT ALL until I saw a trailer for the 2.4 Shiva patch and decided to resub. I made a Ninja (a class I always wanted to play but didn't exist before then) and leveled him to 50. Two of my friends also resubbed and we did a lot of 50 content that was new for them too, together.
We then all three stopped again.
A month before Heavensward, we all resubbed and did all the new stuff we hadn't seen and all the new story so we were ready for HW which we've been playing since headstart now.
I predict we'll unsub next month or so (unless new content happens) and then resub with the next big patch again.
I absolutely love my time with the game but it's definitely been anything but a "normal MMO playstyle" I think.
No, that's the way to play an offline single player jrpg.
The way I've seen that circumvented in another game is make it so those other options provide a higher yield of (in this case) esoterics. Building good content and not maintaining it usually isn't wise.
Then you will just bitch about the team rehashing content.
Also, what is the carrot on the end of the stick for this refreshed content? More end game gear? The hardcore (you) will just min max it down to a science, get your gear as soon as possible, tilt your nose up and bitch about the lack of meaningful, "challenging" content.
I'm all for a variety of different content, but its clear that Yoshi and his team aren't up for spending their budget on shit 1% of people will do for the time is takes to develop it. Then having them turn around and bitch about it. Let's see how creative they get as time goes on. FFS, the damn expansion only launched 3 weeks ago.
People still can't clear Turn 5 or Titan Extreme very easily.
I think I've been pretty open about having zero interest in the story. Having hit 60 the first time within like 48 hours of the start of early access has no impact on the content I actually want to do (and hasn't exactly stopped me from having stuff to level; I've been level grinding since Early Access started and could keep doing so until 3.1 probably.) I hate the train of thought that I should have drug out the parts of the game I don't particularly enjoy (MSQ) just to make things take longer.
Alex Savage isn't even out yet. Nobody is out of things to do yet. But Heavensward is following the ARR content pattern, and people reacting to and speculating about the eventual death of endgame activity seems pretty valid. Taking MSQ super slow and barely being ready in time for Alex Savage won't actually prolong the life of actual endgame content.
Well, the LotA/ST/WoD run for the upgrade token was somewhat like that, people hated having to run it each week.
plutoknight
Member
Titan Extreme i can get, but is Turn 5 still a road block?!
....Actually I could totally see that. Turn 5 still has one-shot mechanics that even being 60/running in as undersized can't overcome..
You really aren't reading anything he posts. He isn't even really bitching, he's just saying that he wishes endgame had more variety and is making suggestions to how it could be done. He isn't turning his nose up at other players, and honestly you're the one being condescending. What is this thread if you can't talk about ways you'd like the game to improve? All the negativity iin here has come from the people who think they're being positive. The game is allowed to be criticised for certain things. It isn't perfect.
Can't believe I've spent the last page defending Tabris.
People hated that because you usually had to run it with 20+ strangers who were ass at the game and would abandon when they got whatever they needed. That's a different issue.
A sign of the coming umbral era.
plutoknight
Member
This sounds like the timewalking system in WoW, which is something I'd fully love.
A 'Raid Roulette' that threw Crystal Tower/maybe first coil that gave bonuses and such a la the other roulettes would be good, but we have SO MANY ROULETTES already.
I think you mean T5/T9/T13 Roulette.