That's a pretty big deal, that destroys a lot of T8s difficulty and makes T6 pretty easy too, in theory.
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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
That's a pretty big deal, that destroys a lot of T8s difficulty and makes T6 pretty easy too, in theory.
Content variety means a spectrum. You have the easy stuff, the medium stuff, the hard stuff, and the impossible stuff. There should be multiple entries in each category. And you as a group progress through the spectrum but as you progress, it doesn't invalidate the previous category.
Dynamis started off extremely hard where most people couldn't finish in the time limit. Later on it became easier for those groups but still took effort. While the newer groups got to go through the extremely hard experience of those first groups.
And once again, I'm using FFXI as that's the only other MMO I know but others have mentioned how WoW used to do it with multiple raids in each category at the launch of each expansion.
WoW hasn't been like that in ages.
But that is exactly the case here. I doubt people were fully equipped with Darklight 1-2 weeks after Philosophy was introduced. If Law was as hard to come by as it was back then, I don't think people would be here complaining how there is nothing to do and how there is no challenging contents. So yes, I do believe that Law being uncapped is part of the problem, or at least contributed to it. Your example would be fine if Estoerics is indeed in the game (which would also mean there are additional contents supporting that currency), but it's not, so Law could have and should have been treated the same way as any subsequent tomestones.
lol ok.
Matt Attack
Member
Trial is definitely the final boss for Heavensward. Awesome encounter all around, and I definitely need an extreme version ASAP. Favorite dungeons are probably Sohm Al, Hullbreaker Isle, and Lost City of Amdapor (it's soooo pretty).
Warlords is the only one with only 2 raids at launch (with 3 difficulty levels).
That's still 1 more than FFXIV.
Mists of Panderia had 3 at launch and 2 after. All with 2 difficulty levels.
The previous expansions all had a lot more then these two. WoW is going downhill obviously, but FFXIV is supposed to be in it's prime.
Btw I just ordered this Delivery Moogle plush for my GF cause it is ADORABLE
Should be here tomorrow.
Her mailman has been giving her trouble so I said "It's time you get a new one!" and will surprise her with it.
I hope we get some more fun moogle content,not just those sidequests.
Should be here tomorrow.
Her mailman has been giving her trouble so I said "It's time you get a new one!" and will surprise her with it.
I hope we get some more fun moogle content,not just those sidequests.
Yea people were, because you could speed run AK/WP in about 10 minutes. It didn't take long to fully geared in darklight once you hit 50.
I'd more argue that FFXIV is just about hitting it's stride. I don't think it'll be in its prime until 4.0 time.
Imagine Wagons
Member
Don't worry, if it gets popular enough you will start to hear bad news.
If Law had been capped, there would have been less to do pre-Alex as infinite dungeon runs wouldn't have happened, gearing up alt classes wouldn't have been possible, etc.
And, again, the bulk of the discussion doesn't seem to be that there's nothing to do right this second, as Savage isn't here yet, it's that there's no apparent change in the endgame content cycle from ARR, and we know how that panned out.
And, again, the bulk of the discussion doesn't seem to be that there's nothing to do right this second, as Savage isn't here yet, it's that there's no apparent change in the endgame content cycle from ARR, and we know how that panned out.
Well WoW's first expansion had 9 raids by the end, a decent amount on launch (I can't tell based on this WoW wiki I'm reading). Second expansion (4.0 equivalent) had 13 raids, with 2 difficulty levels each (so 26)
Arguments about what content a game was pushing and how it was pushing it over a decade ago completely ignores a) how the focus of the two games is different (WoW places a bigger emphasis on raids), b) how the playerbase and what they want is different, c) how WoW itself has changed its approach, etc.
I have to agree, theres no reason for any content not to be available via DF. People know going in that its going to be more difficult due to random composition, lack of chat functionaility,etc. But leave that decision to the player, dont just unilaterally wall it off.
The main reward for running end-game dungeons is to get Tomestones of Law, considering the majority of roulettes, which include all dungeons in the game, also reward Law its technically correct to say there are only two end-game dungeons but in practice it doesnt work like that. I'm also not sure what dungeons you've been running but evey dungeon I've been in has had randomised loot, I know that because I spent time running them again and again to get a full set of that loot (Brayflox in 2.0, most of the new dungeons in HW)
Is anyone actually opposed to this? All I've seen are people explaining why niche content is unlikely to happen and why any endgame variety should be accessible.
I have to agree, theres no reason for any content not to be available via DF. People know going in that its going to be more difficult due to random composition, lack of chat functionaility,etc. But leave that decision to the player, dont just unilaterally wall it off.
If you guys want to have an honest comparison between WoW's end game content and FFXIV's...
WoW end game content USED TO BE like this at launch (using Wrath of the Lich King here
End game dungeons:
WoW: 12 end-game dungeons
FFXIV: 2 end-game dungeons.
All of WoW's have versions to enter while leveling and then heroic versions at max level, which drops gear necessary to begin raiding. There are also random loot drops that FFXIV doesn't have which incentivized re-running them after you farmed your gear, something that FFXIV doesn't have after you're done farming your tomes.
The main reward for running end-game dungeons is to get Tomestones of Law, considering the majority of roulettes, which include all dungeons in the game, also reward Law its technically correct to say there are only two end-game dungeons but in practice it doesnt work like that. I'm also not sure what dungeons you've been running but evey dungeon I've been in has had randomised loot, I know that because I spent time running them again and again to get a full set of that loot (Brayflox in 2.0, most of the new dungeons in HW)
Is anyone actually opposed to this? All I've seen are people explaining why niche content is unlikely to happen and why any endgame variety should be accessible.
I always feel like FF14 is being held back by the failure that was 1.0.
They sunk a HUGE amount of money into the game and need to get that money back.
So I feel that even if the game is doing really really well now and makes them dosh, they still can only give smaller parts of that to the devs to make the game bigger/better because they need a huge part of it to make their money back.
They sunk a HUGE amount of money into the game and need to get that money back.
So I feel that even if the game is doing really really well now and makes them dosh, they still can only give smaller parts of that to the devs to make the game bigger/better because they need a huge part of it to make their money back.
Lack of content variety is not a hardcore player only problem.
Thanks for making my point for me McDohl
Thanks for making my point for me McDohl
Don't compare a game in 2015 to WoW's first expansion back in the stone age. They were catering to a different player base. All those raids and hardly any alternate forms of entertainment.
You're overstating WoW a bit, BC had 8, WotLK had 9. Cata had 6.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Burning_Crusade_instances_by_level
As they came up with more ways to recycle assets by making multiple difficulty levels they actually started creating less content. They took out the hole of the donut and served people pancakes instead, so everyone ate the pancakes, announced they were full, and left the restaurant.
Why not? I thought the issue with FFXIV was it was designed like WoW? So everything had to be instanced? That's what multiple people were saying to me when I was trying to say what I liked about FFXI and what FFXIV should add from it.
Yes, it was designed like how WoW was back in 2013, no one is making a game designed like WoW from over a decade ago. Wildstar tried that and died in a month.
Thanks for making my point for me McDohl
Hmm, McDohl and Riou, I smell an alt account.
Ban this man!
Unknown Soldier
Member
LOTRO was not poor
There has been no explicit plans shown yet to the public of what to expect down the line but there has been hints, and we do know of some stuff that will be releasing in 3.1 and likely expanded further every other patch till the end of the this expansions patch cycle.
3.05 introduces Esoterics Tomestones, Red Scrips for Gathering and Crafting (weekly limited scrips), Alexander Savage, End Game crafting recipes (for this patch cycle's item lvl cap).
3.1 adds the new 24 man raid which hasn't been shown or even hinted at by the dev team other then it would be 'original' to FFXIV and the story for it would start in the update the first part of it releases in. They will also add this expansions version of the relic weapons at that same time. Likely 2-4 (3) new dungeons 1-2 of which will likely be Hard Mode versions of Heavensward leveling dungeons (unless they decide they want to take some Hard Mode versions of dungeons that were created at the lvl 50 cap 2.1 and on which I can see happening).
They will also be adding some kind field based mechanics to the Free Company Airships which supposedly have potential to supply a variety of content for all parts of the game from crafting, gathering and NM based fights in the field. Yoshida has also hinted at a new gameplay system related to more open dungeon design but was extremely reserved on just what that means (All he would say is it wasn't Dynamis, since that was question asked of him
). Outside of those things we will have the recurring every other update between Alexander Raid Tier and the 24 Man Crystal Tower Catch up patch.Pellegri Testament
Member
Warlords had a single raid at launch, the 2nd wasn't added till several months after launch. The ilvl was barely better than the first raid other than having tier sets to it. It was only held because they wanted to spread out the content. The same thing with Mists, only a single raid at launch and the other 2 came out weeks later.
A "decent" amount at launch being a single, single boss raid? They had to rush another raid out the door (as in it was created in a week, with the most basic boss mechanics ever) just so they would have something else for people to do at endgame. Also do not count separate difficulties as different raids. They are literally the exact same thing, same mechanics, same bosses, same everything, the only thing different is the numbers. Previous WoW expacs have also had a lot of single boss raids, they should never be counted when comparing the raids in other games.
Oh.
No, they were counting really dumb PVP "PVE" raid bosses that were loot piñatas. I totally forgot about those. (Vault of Archavon)
So technically the site's right, but to call those raids is funny if you saw what they were. I guess one could compare them to hard mode primals or something if they were really desperate for parity.
There has been no explicit plans shown yet to the public of what to expect down the line but there has been hints, and we do know of some stuff that will be releasing in 3.1 and likely expanded further every other patch till the end of the this expansions patch cycle.
3.05 introduces Esoterics Tomestones, Red Scrips for Gathering and Crafting (weekly limited scrips), Alexander Savage, End Game crafting recipes (for this patch cycle's item lvl cap).
3.1 adds the new 24 man raid which hasn't been shown or even hinted at by the dev team other then it would be 'original' to FFXIV and the story for it would start in the update the first part of it releases in. They will also add this expansions version of the relic weapons at that same time. Likely 2-4 (3) new dungeons 1-2 of which will likely be Hard Mode versions of Heavensward leveling dungeons (unless they decide they want to take some Hard Mode versions of dungeons that were created at the lvl 50 cap 2.1 and on which I can see happening).
They will also be adding some kind field based mechanics to the Free Company Airships which supposedly have potential to supply a variety of content for all parts of the game from crafting, gathering and NM based fights in the field. Yoshida has also hinted at a new gameplay system related to more open dungeon design but was extremely reserved on just what that means (All he would say is it wasn't Dynamis, since that was question asked of him
I take it we don't have any estimated times for these additions at all,do we?
Also, what will Esoterics be there for?
Yeah... WoW has a lot less content than you think it does. I quit before Cataclysm, but Wrath launched with like 1 raid, and it wasn't even brand new. It was a old raid repurposed from vanilla that hardly anyone was able to play. It also had a couple single boss instances (similar to ex primals we have now). The next major raid didn't come until months later.
And I must say that the content cycle in FFXIV shits all over WoW. What made me quit that game in the first place was it's super slow content cycle. Imagine having to farm coil for an entire year before you got any major new content to work on. That actually happens in WoW.
And I must say that the content cycle in FFXIV shits all over WoW. What made me quit that game in the first place was it's super slow content cycle. Imagine having to farm coil for an entire year before you got any major new content to work on. That actually happens in WoW.
3.1 would, traditionally, come three months after 3.0 dropped. There might be a month discrepancy though since we aren't getting all of 3.0 until 2 weeks from now.
This is a very valid point to remember as well. The other MMO I play which is more of a backburner thing is SWTOR. They get two raids at a time but it's usually 13 months in between raid releases.
Why? There are people who have only levelled their crafting and gathering professions in HW, is what theyre doing an ephemeral dream? Are they imagining the content?
Of course. Some MMOS do well after doing F2P. Does that make them GOOD MMOs? Not really. They went F2P because they weren't good enough to pay monthly for. It's a fucking weird dynamic where people will pay for a Jedi costume or something but won't pay to actually PLAY the damn thing. =P
Tabris said:
See, one thing that nostalgia doesn't capture is the feelings at the time. People HATED Dynamis. They hated going to it after a month. Hated it. It was long, boring and terrible. Few people got anything for their trouble and often times, so many people farmed it for ONE person's relic. It was awful. Now, while that is content is that really "good" content you want in XIV? Zodiac questline was just the tip of Dynamis'/Relic questline. Zodiac caused people to quit FFXIV, you think Dynamis wouldn't do the same? It was a product of the time. FFXI was a fucking JOB for its userbase. We don't want that again.
I understand you're using that as an example of "content" but lets perhaps think of something better?
WoW is used as an example. Okay. WoW works in tiers. You run sets of raids to gear up to tackle other sets of raids to ...etc. You're tackling all of them at one time. Once you get what you need from the previous tier, you're not going back there unless its to help on occasion. How is this different from Coil exactly? Sure, Coil isn't as long or numerous in turns, but Coil kicked the shit out of people for months as they were stuck on turns. Trying to gear up within Coil and out of it (tomes/EX primals) to try to help them clear to the next turn.
The structure is the same, so is it the amount of raids/turns that gets you? I can see that point. Can you also see how it doesn't help that game from dropped massive amounts of subscribers either? WoW features a fuckton of content variety and Draenor has shed over 3 million subs since its release (WoW's sub numbers have always been weird).
The MMO userbase is older now. Much like gaming's in general. We have jobs, lives and more. I think the XIV sees that (as do other games which is why WoW has LFR that people poo-poo on). So, throwing in a ton of raids to gear up for more raids and so on...is that the answer? I don't know. Works with Primals. I think they are doing this Normal and Savage Alexander to find out if this will work. If so, we could see more of this in the future. Normal and EX dungeons even.
I would love to see more variety of content, but until we see what "challenging" is in Heavenward (keep in mind, I bet the majority of the playerbase has yet to clear Ravana EX...), we have no clue.
In the meantime, I would like to see some other cool shit. I want flying mount PVP. That stuff would be damned awesome! I want to see the next 24 man raid. I wouldn't mind seeing weekly/daily "challenge" modes as an example of reusing content to keep things relevant. Challenges involving party structure (akin to classic party challenged in older FFs like all WHM party challenges, etc). Rewards can include the newer tomes, equipment, minions, mounts, etc. How about a Caverns of Time type event in Gold Saucer? Through the magic of Moogle Fuckery comes a chance to fight with classic FF heroes in classic battles. Fight with Cloud and crew vs. Sephiroth for loot, minions, glamour and stuff. That would fucking incredible! How about crafting and gathering competitions! Fishing competitions! FC Airship Battles! How about minion battles? Rip off WoW some more! I'm okay with that one! I want to see one on one PVP duels in the Coliseum for gil!
Tons of ideas to be had. Falling back on XI crap that the player base wasn't even that excited for when it was new aren't the greatest of ideas. =/ Nor do they fit in modern MMOs.
I never crafted or gathered, do you not need to do the MSQ to unlock things?
You could probably make a solid argument that navigating menu screens is meaningful content, but up against raids with music and cutscenes and voice acting and bosses and yadda yadda yadda... that's a tough one.
They could make a hundred new logs for you to whack out of trees, that's a real low bar to set though.
Azzurri
Member
Yea, wonder why they never give you the current number of subs? hmmm? The job of an mmo is to retain as many subs as possible. Yes, having 5 million subs total is great, but if the turnover is 80%(I'm guessing 14 has 750k to a million active subs) then it's not doing a great job of holding on to them. WoW has just now been on the decline, but it's also 11 years old soon. Not saying it isn't a success, but never giving the current subs and just the total is a bit odd don't ya think?
And look at the state of WoW. It has lost 3-4 million subs in 6 months, that's not good at all.
Yup, YoshiP is so scared to repeat 1.0 that he keeps everything so streamlined and it shows.
Well then WoW sucks. I stand by my point though, and only game I have to use as my example is FFXI. That's what I want - content variety. I don't mind them re-using assets, re-skinning, other MMO tricks - as long as it provides a different experience and feel. This would also require either splitting up gear drops between the content or adding better secondary stats so you have reasons for different kinds of gear always at the same level.
An updated CT-ST-WoD as a level 60 8-man raid is my perfect example.
Then start adding gear stats like "+50 Shield Block", "+Decrease Raging Strikes cooldown", "+30 Impulse Drive Potency", etc. So there's a reason to have different gear drops, and wearing different gear sets for different encounters.
Speak for yourself. I loved Dynamis. People in the linkshells I were in loved running it. And any content they didn't like, there was content they did like due to variety. If I don't like Alexander, there's no options for me in FFXIV.
An updated CT-ST-WoD as a level 60 8-man raid is my perfect example.
Then start adding gear stats like "+50 Shield Block", "+Decrease Raging Strikes cooldown", "+30 Impulse Drive Potency", etc. So there's a reason to have different gear drops, and wearing different gear sets for different encounters.
Speak for yourself. I loved Dynamis. People in the linkshells I were in loved running it. And any content they didn't like, there was content they did like due to variety. If I don't like Alexander, there's no options for me in FFXIV.
Yeah, sorry about that one. LOTRO was pretty damned good. I liked a lot of the ideas it has too. Such as raising a legendary, named weapon that would grow in power over time. FFXIV should rip that off (with some ways to make it better) somehow. Also, player made music!
Unless he changes his mind, Yoshi has stated you will never, ever see this in XIV. Reasoning is sound. The player community sucks and will make whatever is determined "the best" to be "the standard' and fuck you if you don't have it.
There could be a whole thread dedicated to discussion on this point, it's probably more that free attracts in people and then they fall for vanity or convenience money hooks. I wouldn't really say that any of those MMOs did bad though. They were samey and no one wants to pay a sub for a game they feel they have already played. I think FFXIV falls into a special place because it has that same western gameplay everyone is used to but it's very obviously a Japanese RPG which makes it feel different (even though it really isn't) because of that, people hang on for longer and are actually more patient though you wouldn't know it from this thread or reddit.
Major patches have been fairly consistently 2-3 months after the previous major patch with usually delays not going beyond 2-3 weeks. But this is the first major patch after the expansion has come out and we still havent gotten last segment of the initial 3.0 patch (although it wasn't a delay due content not being ready but rather an intentional staggering of the release to let players catch up to the new max lvl). We are getting a live letter later this weekend which besides talking about the game itself might have some sneak peaks of future content we can look forward to. I don't expect a timeline for when 3.1 is coming to show up till Alexander Savage is officially released though.
This is the absolute worst btw. I think this game could benefit greatly from set bonuses from different pieces of gear.
Yes, I do not understand why someone would be against that.
EDIT - If the reasoning is to avoid players being excluded by other players due to gear. That's already happening now, not sure what other secondary stats and set bonuses would change with that?
This isn't true, raiding throughout WotLK was a constantly shifting meta where everyone claimed one thing with napkin math, and then in practice it blew, and then someone found an exploit doing another build and people sought to see if it was worth it to acquire the gear to support it, then they fixed it, so they came up with new alternatives - there was never one true build where you'd be shunned if you didn't use it. ElitistJerks was an ever-shifting conversation during patch cycles.
I was a rogue and our 25-man had a combat rogue, an assassination rogue, and a subtlety rogue. One of the reasons for this split was that loot was more evenly distributed - I knew as an assassination rogue that I'd get rolls on slow 1.8 second daggers over the subtlety rogue, and the combat rogue wanted swords or maces or axes. In addition we all brought different buffs and debuffs to the fight.
So no, this argument is repeated so often and it's such bs. And the worst part is it's always used in defense of the really boring stat system we're stuck with. They could throw in random elemental resistances just for people to collect different pieces and not break the game, but instead we're stuck with a hilarious stat page of 0's. Woohoo!
It doesn't really happen now because gear stats are boring as shit and everyone equips the same damn thing. It may not be best in slot but god knows people don't kick people because they chose the other piece of iwhatever gear we have to choose from.
Nothing, relics from 1.0 shit show I think.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not sure I ever saw a raid in WOTLK where someone wouldn't bitch about subtlety (after they 'fixed' HAT) but godspeed to him anyway, sub was the best.