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[Uthred]

I'm torn on the itemisation thing, on the one hand it is something I enjoy, on the other I'm not sure I want to lose hours to tweaking gear in whatever FFXIV's equivalent of rawr and simulationcraft is so I can argue about it on ElitistJerks

You could probably make a solid argument that navigating menu screens is meaningful content, but up against raids with music and cutscenes and voice acting and bosses and yadda yadda yadda... that's a tough one.

They could make a hundred new logs for you to whack out of trees, that's a real low bar to set though.

Ah, right, so alternate things to do at max level arent alternate content? Gotcha The poster I was responding to later clarified that they were talking exclusively about PvE content so dismissing crafting made sense

Yea, wonder why they never give you the current number of subs? hmmm?

Because generally no MMO ever does?

 

[Tabris]

It doesn't really happen now because gear stats are boring as shit and everyone equips the same damn thing. It may not be best in slot but god knows people don't kick people because they chose the other piece of iwhatever gear we have to choose from.

Sure, plenty of people kick people or leave when others aren't geared the same as them. That's why party finders have average iLevel.

 

[Jayhawk]

FFXI had horizontal progression, no level cap increase in almost a decade, and items remained best in slot for several years.

FFXIV has vertical progression with content and gear becoming obsolete within months.

Good luck trying to get them to combine the two experiences.

 

[Azzurri]

This isn't true, raiding throughout WotLK was a constantly shifting meta where everyone claimed one thing with napkin math, and then in practice it blew, and then someone found an exploit doing another build and people sought to see if it was worth it to acquire the gear to support it, then they fixed it, so they came up with new alternatives - there was never one true build where you'd be shunned if you didn't use it. ElitistJerks was an ever-shifting conversation during patch cycles.

I was a rogue and our 25-man had a combat rogue, an assassination rogue, and a subtlety rogue. One of the reasons for this split was that loot was more evenly distributed - I knew as an assassination rogue that I'd get rolls on slow 1.8 second daggers over the subtlety rogue, and the combat rogue wanted swords or maces or axes. In addition we all brought different buffs and debuffs to the fight.

So no, this argument is repeated so often and it's such bs. And the worst part is it's always used in defense of the really boring stat system we're stuck with. They could throw in random elemental resistances just for people to collect different pieces and not break the game, but instead we're stuck with a hilarious stat page of 0's. Woohoo!

Yup, this game literally has no shifting META game, every BLM has the exact same rotation, every SMN same thing, so on and so forth. The things I have notice in MMO's people will ALWAYS find a way to change the META. The Jobs are so streamline that it gives NO room for change because it's impossible because for some odd reason YoshiP is scared of giving people choice. Don't give me it's an illusuion BS, because it isn't. Yes, people will always find an optimal build, but it doesn't meant people will challenge it and actually shift the meta like we've see in other MMO's.

 

[EndcatOmega]

FFXI had horizontal progression, no level cap increase in almost a decade, and items remained best in slot for several years.

FFXIV has vertical progression with content and gear becoming obsolete within months.

Good luck trying to get them to combine the two experiences.

I have a solution.

Replace every mob in FFXIV with a crab.

 

[Allard]

This is the absolute worst btw. I think this game could benefit greatly from set bonuses from different pieces of gear.

Set bonuses do exist but not on end game gear, but rather relics of there existence from 1.0 (Company Gear) when they experimented with it (All of those was done under Yoshi-P, it wasn't a relic of the former development heads). He decided after seeing the affect they had on the community in 1.0 that it was too stifling to create new gear tiers when certain stat set buffs/armor buffs trumped pure stat buffs (namely things like the cover damage converting to MP etc. on PLD Body, regen potency + etc.) and the buffs were treated like tweaks to the jobs themselves which in turn made them invaluable and thus new stuff either had to have them on them or risk new gear not getting used or in effect dramatically altering potential play styles which comes across as a temporary balance adjustment for a job instead of an actual balance adjustment for the job. He gave his reasons, but he also shown willingness to experiment again with it in the future, but he wasn't going to do it at the start of this expansion.

I would like him to look into maybe more gear set bonus like Grand Company gear gives (2 pieces of company gear = +9 Accuracy etc.), and I would also like him to add more unique buffs instead of putting them all into a small selection of buff types, but for now he is sticking with this style.

 

[Jayhawk]

I have a solution.

Replace every mob in FFXIV with a crab.

A better solution is that Jet Black HQ Thavnairian Bustier available on the market board that will remain best in slot for five more expansions, kind of like Rajas Ring in FFXI.

 

[Azzurri]

Because generally no MMO ever does?

You're right, but they have no problem telling us they've had 5 million subs, so why not tell us what the current number is?

 

[Klyka]

A better solution is that Jet Black HQ Thavnairian Bustier available on the market board that will remain best in slot for five more expansions, kind of like Rajas Ring in FFXI.

Is this some kind of reference I'm not getting?

 

[Sorian]

FFXI had horizontal progression, no level cap increase in almost a decade, and items remained best in slot for several years.

FFXIV has vertical progression with content and gear becoming obsolete within months.

Good luck trying to get them to combine the two experiences.

Which is weird because both games go to such extremes that it would be no issue making a compromise between the two points. Hell, FFXIV is already part way there with having two different gear sets to pull from for itemization at the top ilvl. They just do it in the most boring way possible which makes it worthless imo.

 

[Kagari]

Is this some kind of reference I'm not getting?

He's been peddling that item onto everyone trying to make a bunch of money lately.

 

[Tabris]

FFXI had horizontal progression, no level cap increase in almost a decade, and items remained best in slot for several years.

FFXIV has vertical progression with content and gear becoming obsolete within months.

Good luck trying to get them to combine the two experiences.

Sure. Here's how you do it:

Reskin old gear (so you don't take developer time with making them unique) with different substats at the same level. Should leverage things like resistance gear where even when it's not the highest level gear, you may need to use it against a fire boss (for example) to survive. So the gear still keeps use. Or maybe you have a boss with a lot of downtime, so that accessory that increases GL3 time is worth wearing on that boss instead of the higher STR accessory?

Gear variety to match content variety. Wearing different gear sets based on bosses or the raid.

 

[JudgeN]

Sure, plenty of people kick people or leave when others aren't geared the same as them. That's why party finders have average iLevel.

Average ilevel is nothing because we normally have 2 sets of gear with the same ilevel and slightly different secondary stats. For example we had Poetics gear and coil that was the same ilvl except for the weapon. I've never seen someone get kicked because he used a different ilvl armor if its the same ilvl. The game lacks armor choices as it is, most people aren't stupid enough to kick people because it.

Which is weird because both games go to such extremes that it would be no issue making a compromise between the two points. Hell, FFXIV is already part way there with having two different gear sets to pull from for itemization at the top ilvl. They just do it in the most boring way possible which makes it worthless imo.

Amen to this

 

[Uthred]

You're right, but they have no problem telling us they've had 5 million subs, so why not tell us what the current number is?

Because its obviously lower? I mean this is a mystery to no-one

 

[Kintaro]

A better solution is that Jet Black HQ Thavnairian Bustier available on the market board that will remain best in slot for five more expansions, kind of like Rajas Ring in FFXI.

LOL Holy shit. That thing was BiS for like...forever.

 

[Jayhawk]

He's been peddling that item onto everyone trying to make a bunch of money lately.

Just wait a couple weeks before I peddle some new minions onto you.

EDIT: Clearly the best way to add more end-game content is to be creative as a player community. First, it was hair and glamour bets. Now, it's peddling wares to people. Trying to get Drama to buy something unnecessary and expensive is harder than any savage mode raid they could ever add this game. I should get an achievement and new title in game if it ever happens.

LOL Holy shit. That thing was BiS for like...forever.

It was finally replaced in 2013 when Seekers of Adoulin came out.

 

[Sorian]

Because its obviously lower? I mean this is a mystery to no-one

Stop being dense.

 

[Azzurri]

Because its obviously lower? I mean this is a mystery to no-one

That's my whole point. An MMO is meant to retain as many subs as possible. I'm not saying it's doing bad, but if you have had 5 million subs, and your current subs are around 1 million(high guess) that's an 80% dropin subs between current and total, isn't that what you don't want?

So up to this point basically for every 5 subs they've had in the two years only 1 of them has kept their sub up to this point.

 

[Kintaro]

Sure. Here's how you do it:

Reskin old gear (so you don't take developer time with making them unique) with different substats at the same level. Should leverage things like resistance gear where even when it's not the highest level gear, you may need to use it against a fire boss (for example) to survive. So the gear still keeps use. Or maybe you have a boss with a lot of downtime, so that accessory that increases GL3 time is worth wearing on that boss instead of the higher STR accessory?

Gear variety to match content variety. Wearing different gear sets based on bosses or the raid.

First things first. Give them time to add infinite inventory space and we're in business. =)

 

[WolvenOne]

......seems people are still at it, eh.

I'll, uh, just be over here.

 

[Sorian]

First things first. Give them time to add infinite inventory space and we're in business. =)

At the end of the day, everything wrong with the game is because they support the PS3. Just kick Drama from the game already.

 

[irfaanator]

As a guy who genuinely really likes Alexander the summon from the Final Fantasy series, I'm down with finding out more about the primal Alexander.

Gobbies are awesome, and you should be ashamed of yourself if you think otherwise.

First Coil's story was fucking pathetic. Everyone is only remembering T12 and T13 where shit actually happened that was interesting. The coolest thing in first coil was fighting Twintania on Bahamut's hand. That was pretty awesome. There's no such spectacle currently in Alexander babby mode. That's not exactly a bad thing. The babby mode experience is pretty much just a prelude to what's going to be coming afterwards. The story and characters are way more intriguing so far in Alexander than I think they were after First Coil. But hey, it's not everyone's thing and that's fine.

goblins suck. they look bad and are bad. i do like alexander but man does that music suck.

 

[scy]

Just say no to farming resistance gear. That is not meaningful content. It is filler content to stretch things out (and/or gate content). Natural progression of VIT accomplishes the same thing without the whole hand-waving on content.

I agree we need more "stuff" in the game but like ... it's really just "what you have now, just have more of it there as well."

 

[Sorian]

Just say no to farming resistance gear. That is not meaningful content. It is filler content to stretch things out (and/or gate content). Natural progression of VIT accomplishes the same thing without the whole hand-waving on content.

I agree we need more "stuff" in the game but like ... it's really just "what you have now, just have more of it there as well."

Yeah, I don't want them to use resistance gear, that's not meaningful, there are other ways to do gear though that would make farming more worth it.

 

[Uthred]

Stop being dense.

Charming

That's my whole point. An MMO is meant to retain as many subs as possible. I'm not saying it's doing bad, but if you have had 5 million subs, and your current subs are around 1 million(high guess) that's an 80% dropin subs between current and total, isn't that what you don't want?

Not to be rude, but I'm not sure if basing your argument, which I believe is "Their lack of endgame variety, with an emphasis on challenging content, is hurting subs", on your guess about how many active subs there are, lends it much credence.

 

[iammeiam]

EDIT: Clearly the best way to add more end-game content is to be creative as a player community. First, it was hair and glamour bets. Now, it's peddling wares to people. Trying to get Drama to buy something unnecessary and expensive is harder than any savage mode raid they could ever add this game. I should get an achievement and new title in game if it ever happens.

I know this is a joke, but I'll double down on Undersized Parties being the secret hero of the expansion. "How much echo does it take to two-man no-healer HM Primals at 60?" Is fun to figure out and will probably be entertaining to compare as people get more and better gear. Doomed two man no-tank no-healer first coil attempts are fun. Solo running low level dungeons on various classes and dragging as much of the dungeon along with you as possible is a good time. We do have more tools now than before to make up weird self-challenges to kill time.

The one bummer is that minimum iLevel sync apparently also strips you of all your 50-60 stuff, because it screws with all my crossbars and makes it more frustration in buttons being deactivated than the actual original challenge preserved.

 

[Allard]

That's my whole point. An MMO is meant to retain as many subs as possible. I'm not saying it's doing bad, but if you have had 5 million subs, and your current subs are around 1 million(high guess) that's an 80% dropin subs between current and total, isn't that what you don't want?

MMO's do not retain a majority of subs compared to what they sell, it doesn't happen, so there is no point in arguing over it till we have hard data. People try a game for a bit and move on, some people stay and establish communities, some players play for a while, quit for a bit and then come back, rinse/repeat. We likely won't get hard active subscriber numbers till like a quarterly financial report and FFXIV is muddled between constant sales and item shop items to pad the numbers so other then taking snapshots of the population on each server or they just coming out and stating in a milestone report it reaching a certain active threshold we really don't know the active player base, especially since you can be an active subscriber and never set foot on the game world for months.

 

[Kintaro]

At the end of the day, everything wrong with the game is because they support the PS3. Just kick Drama from the game already.

Kick PS3, save Drama.

The solution to everything is absolutely glamour. Fashion Fantasy must survive!

 

[irfaanator]

I know this is a joke, but I'll double down on Undersized Parties being the secret hero of the expansion. "How much echo does it take to two-man no-healer HM Primals at 60?" Is fun to figure out and will probably be entertaining to compare as people get more and better gear. Doomed two man no-tank no-healer first coil attempts are fun. Solo running low level dungeons on various classes and dragging as much of the dungeon along with you as possible is a good time. We do have more tools now than before to make up weird self-challenges to kill time.

The one bummer is that minimum iLevel sync apparently also strips you of all your 50-60 stuff, because it screws with all my crossbars and makes it more frustration in buttons being deactivated than the actual original challenge preserved.

strips all your new abilities and makes your gear sync to whites. the worst of the worst

 

[Azzurri]

Charming



Not to be rude, but I'm not sure if basing your argument, which I believe is "Their lack of endgame variety, with an emphasis on challenging content, is hurting subs", on your guess about how many active subs there are, lends it much credence.

But it also doesn't prove me wrong either now does it? Until SE releases the current numbers will agree to disagree.

 

[WolvenOne]

I will say this. While I'm glad they're doing bigger ilvl jumps, I rather hope that we start getting back into multiple gear-sets at the same ilvl soon. A little mixing and matching to get the best stats does make things a bit more fun. Other then that, I'm good. I wouldn't want to be stuck in a situation where I STILL have to farm 1st/2nd/3rd Coil, just to be able to do Alexander.

PS: Man, can't believe you guys are still arguing. Don't you know that Tabris loves drama, you're playing right into his maniacal little hands!

PPS: Galen no! No Drama Jokes, BAD! No biscuit!

 

[Arkeband]

strips all your new abilities and makes your gear sync to whites. the worst of the worst

I believe it said in the HW patch notes that it actually syncs to HQ white stats now, or green/pink.

Which makes basically no difference, but it's something.

 

[Sorian]

PS: Man, can't believe you guys are still arguing. Don't you know that Tabris loves drama, you're playing right into his maniacal little hands!

A broken clock is right twice a day and we've hit the second time.

 

[Allard]

I believe it said in the HW patch notes that it actually syncs to HQ white stats now, or green/pink.

Which makes basically no difference, but it's something.

Its certainly made a noticeable difference to me when doing low level and high level roulette's but that might be also attributed to the overall higher gear lvl of some of the instances (specifically talking about High Level Roulette).

 

[WolvenOne]

A broken clock is right twice a day and we've hit the second time.

You wound me sir, wound me deeply! My therapist shall hear of this!

 

[Wagram]

Problem with the Alex storyline for me is that I can't take the goblins seriously. This is more or less a life of death storyline and it's lighthearted with goblins.

Even though t1-5 wasn't strong (like pretty much all of ARR at launch) it had a very strong purpose behind it and it became great. I don't see this one heading anywhere.

 

[Sorian]

Problem with the Alex storyline for me is that I can't take the goblins seriously. This is more or less a life of death storyline and it's lighthearted with goblins.

Even though t1-5 wasn't strong (like pretty much all of ARR at launch) it had a very strong purpose behind it and it became great. I don't see this one heading anywhere.

Hey man, if someone broke into your house with a gun and was trying to kill you, that would be a legit scary situation. The situation shouldn't become lighthearted just because the guy that broke in is a midget dressed like a clown.

Spoiler

Literally the first weird thing that came to my mind

Point being, the Alex story is still going to touch on some pretty important points and that head goblin is a massive dick. No less so just because its goblins.

 

[Tabris]

PS: Man, can't believe you guys are still arguing. Don't you know that Tabris loves drama, you're playing right into his maniacal little hands!

My best friend is a girl and I got a current girlfriend, I don't need your guys help for drama

But I do love to debate.

 

[Ken]

He's asking for more variety which isn't the same as catering to the 'shit 1%' as you put it. If he said we need everything to be super hard that only 1% or so of players can do then you have a case, but all he and others are asking for is multiple ways to progress in endgame then just going from A to B to C.

I felt like the mid-late 2.x life kind of had that, or at least was their intention.

EXDR dungeon farming for tomes
24-man raids
8-man raids
EX Primals that occasionally had BiS drops for a time
Relic progression

2.x always felt like it was the rocky/experimental time for them, what with the delay of the first Crystal Tower, Savage experiment, loot drops, and coming off of 1.0. Will be optimistic to see how and what they'll put out in 3.0.

 

[scy]

Jingleshines for boomyrock

 

[Arkeband]

Problem with the Alex storyline for me is that I can't take the goblins seriously. This is more or less a life of death storyline and it's lighthearted with goblins.

Even though t1-5 wasn't strong (like pretty much all of ARR at launch) it had a very strong purpose behind it and it became great. I don't see this one heading anywhere.

This is why I think S-E needs to remind us once again that Alexander is the GOAT summon... in a cinematic!!!

Pew pew! Zzamp! Whoops, looks like now there's two Eorzeas.

 

[Jayhawk]

I know this is a joke, but I'll double down on Undersized Parties being the secret hero of the expansion. "How much echo does it take to two-man no-healer HM Primals at 60?" Is fun to figure out and will probably be entertaining to compare as people get more and better gear. Doomed two man no-tank no-healer first coil attempts are fun. Solo running low level dungeons on various classes and dragging as much of the dungeon along with you as possible is a good time. We do have more tools now than before to make up weird self-challenges to kill time.

The one bummer is that minimum iLevel sync apparently also strips you of all your 50-60 stuff, because it screws with all my crossbars and makes it more frustration in buttons being deactivated than the actual original challenge preserved.

For economical reasons, I am actually going to start spamming some older content in undersized parties. No, you cannot get that Kingly Whisker selling for 20 million gil in an undersized party. Plus, 7-person tank T4 parties are the best way to get their mounts.

 

[Sorian]

I felt like the mid-late 2.x life kind of had that, or at least was their intention.

EXDR dungeon farming for tomes
24-man raids
8-man raids
EX Primals that occasionally had BiS drops for a time
Relic progression

The issue is they took an approach where it all got wiped clean with no replacement for 3.0. I would hope the game evolves over time instead of just starting new each expac and slowly (very slowly) ramps up.

 

[Frumix]

There probably will be some tear-jerking drama with Mide (or maybe she just likes how it tickles when she touches her scar), Cid will shake his head at misappropriated science and then they'll all ride into the sunset on a carriage made of dreams. Quickthinx is a Bond villain. Yeah I dunno. I think it's not a bad idea to have a lighthearted adventure raid especially since the rest of the story was on point.

 

[Sorian]

For economical reasons, I am actually going to start spamming some older content in undersized parties. No, you cannot get that Kingly Whisker selling for 20 million gil in an undersized party. Plus, 7-person tank T4 parties are the best way to get their mounts.

Do people still buy kingly whiskers? Can we please farm mog ex?

 

[Ken]

The issue is they took an approach where it all got wiped clean with no replacement for 3.0. I would hope the game evolves over time instead of just starting new each expac and slowly (very slowly) ramps up.

You mean like the gear or content to replace it all?

I'd probably give it till like 4.0 before declaring FFXIV doomed.

 

[Frumix]

Do people still buy kingly whiskers? Can we please farm mog ex?

I take it you haven't seen this thing

 

[iammeiam]

No, you cannot get that Kingly Whisker selling for 20 million gil in an undersized party.

BELIEVE ME I AM AWARE.

Have you seen the crafted Mog gun? It's created specifically to drive me insane because the only way to get the drop is to farm Mog synced to 50 and the mere idea gives me a headache.

 

[Sorian]

You mean like the gear or content to replace it all?

I'd probably give it till like 4.0 before declaring FFXIV doomed.

I saw your original post so I'm going to roll with that. My point is, 3.5 will roll around and we'll have a lot of content to do again and yay all is well. Then 4.0 will drop and nothing from 3.x will matter so we will just have a few things. And they will have to ramp up to the end of 4.x again and yay content! <repeat cycle>. My point is, I hope they don't go down that route forever.

 

[Arkeband]

BELIEVE ME I AM AWARE.

Have you seen the crafted Mog gun? It's created specifically to drive me insane because the only way to get the drop is to farm Mog synced to 50 and the mere idea gives me a headache.

The gun doesn't drop from the chest...?