I picture this more of a personal improvement tool, rather than a Raid tool. For raids, party-wide parsers would be better, but I don't really think it's all that appropriate to seriously parse people in random casual content without their knowledge. The difference being that in raids, you're trying to improve as a group, where as if you're just plugging or DFing at most you can only really improve as an individual player.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
I picture this more of a personal improvement tool, rather than a Raid tool. For raids, party-wide parsers would be better, but I don't really think it's all that appropriate to seriously parse people in random casual content without their knowledge. The difference being that in raids, you're trying to improve as a group, where as if you're just plugging or DFing at most you can only really improve as an individual player.
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
Sure I can have a parser.
The problem is I can never admit to having or using a parser and I sure as hell can't mention which DPS need to improve or offer pointers to said DPS or else I can be banned.
If they loosened the policy and let us point out the problems and offer solutions thenI wouldn't be having this conversation.
This is ridiculous and makes you look really badly informed.
But, hey, perfect example of why the FFXIV community is probably not capable of putting DPS numbers in context.
It's don't ask, don't tell policy. I mean, I think Yoship is a big man baby about parsers but the option is there and easy to use. It's a non-issue that can be dropped.
I've offered pointers to BLMs spamming Blizzard for DPS or Dragoons not Heavy Thrusting and not gotten banned.
It's not too hard to observe if someone's rotation is off.
I personally like this policy
You would at least know that you aren't the problem. As with anything, a community can use tools for good or bad. Having a personal parser that no one can see but you and you never have to admit to using (or know about using) and that you can lie about if some schmo is pressing you and won't stop being a dick (in which case, report), benefits the user more than griefers.
I also primarily play on my PS4 and would like the convenience of measuring my deeps on it.
Rose of Eternity
Banned
This was a tongue in cheek post but I'm not sure what I'm badly informed about. With only two dps slots in a party, getting double brd compared to double real dps obviously isn't ideal. whysoserious.gif
I know it is there.
But it should be public and be supported by FF14...instead of people reporting someone for breaking the TOS because they got kick for being bad.
Built-in game support would be even better so you don't have to worry about people not having a meter.
Again, the ability to announce the metric without fear is the main issue, not because there is something already there.
The only thing that annoys me about it is I hate that I have to act coy if I'm ever doing semi-serious content with strangers. I was doing Alex 1, the first morning it came out and when we realized that splitting dps would be the best bet, someone split the dps into two groups that I could tell were going to kill the things extremely unevenly so I had to say "oh yeah, I actually get this weird feeling that so-and-so and whatshisface should be together on this add instead and me and that guy will be on the other add."
I always have a hard time finding tanks that can hold threat to allow me to do my AoE rotation as BLM
{Quelling Strikes}
Just to clarify, putting a self parse option into the game, would mainly just be to give people the option to know what their own numbers are without having to set up ACT. (Which isn't even available on PS4.) Right now most players don't use parsers at all, and have no idea what their numbers are, which makes improving their own DPS a sort of blind affair.
It would not be a replacement for the sort of party-wide parse you see in ACT. It'd merely be a more limited tool for casual players.
Edit: And I do not believe in using parses as an excuse to kick people from casual content. I accept slow DPS as a worthwhile potential trade-off for getting into the dungeon without fuss. Besides, it's pretty rare for me to spend more than a half hour in a dungeon, even in poor DF parties.
It would not be a replacement for the sort of party-wide parse you see in ACT. It'd merely be a more limited tool for casual players.
Edit: And I do not believe in using parses as an excuse to kick people from casual content. I accept slow DPS as a worthwhile potential trade-off for getting into the dungeon without fuss. Besides, it's pretty rare for me to spend more than a half hour in a dungeon, even in poor DF parties.
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
I agree more with this. When using a parser it is not safe for me to kick the person that is the problem without me lying about the reason. It sucks to have to reinforce the bad in people.
One solution to help people 'git gud' without involving add-ons:
Considering they need to fill out guildhests something fierce, since they already check guildhests per-class to grant one-time class-specific bonuses, they should really add DPS check guildhests at 50 and 60 that represent rotations at those levels. And to clear it within a certain timeframe, you'd have to do your rotations properly for like ~1.5 minutes, with a little bit of leniency. They could also figure out something for tanks to retain aggro for a certain amount of time or time their cooldowns wisely, or healers to keep certain NPC's alive or *gasp* even learn to stance-dance. They could tune it extremely tightly while still allowing breathing room so they're clearable within a margin of error.
At least this would provide the means for people who are legitimately clueless to practice and figure out their class at end-game.
I just want more guildhests. They're meant to teach you the game, but there are still so many players who are comfortable half the effectiveness they could be at with minimal effort, just improvements to their playstyle.
Considering they need to fill out guildhests something fierce, since they already check guildhests per-class to grant one-time class-specific bonuses, they should really add DPS check guildhests at 50 and 60 that represent rotations at those levels. And to clear it within a certain timeframe, you'd have to do your rotations properly for like ~1.5 minutes, with a little bit of leniency. They could also figure out something for tanks to retain aggro for a certain amount of time or time their cooldowns wisely, or healers to keep certain NPC's alive or *gasp* even learn to stance-dance. They could tune it extremely tightly while still allowing breathing room so they're clearable within a margin of error.
At least this would provide the means for people who are legitimately clueless to practice and figure out their class at end-game.
I just want more guildhests. They're meant to teach you the game, but there are still so many players who are comfortable half the effectiveness they could be at with minimal effort, just improvements to their playstyle.
Meh, I'm fine with the current dissuasion to posting parses in random groups.
Rose of Eternity
Banned
WoW essentially has this with the proving grounds. It purposely puts all max level players in a gauntlet of pve to test tank/healing/dps. And the gold challenges can be brutal for someone who doesn't know how to play the game. Completing them is required to access harder content.
FF14 could definitely benefit with a similar system before you get into raids or trials.
Considering fight durations are short, BRD/MCH DPS is really high on things that live for ~2m. Especially things that are only really available for quick burst moments anyway due to jumps or mechanics.
It's dungeons. Your primary concern is getting people who know what they're doing (and are appropriately geared). Optimal comps come much later to that.
Lanrutcon
Member
See, this kind of post is awesome. The man is offering a pretty good idea. The medium of guildhests is already there, so add in some raid training and a few practice checks.
Maybe even take it one step further: add a roulette that allows more experienced players to mentor a player during a fight.
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
Damn that sounds like a dream come true. I would give up all the parsing in the world for the extreme content to be gated behind something like that.
I think this runs into the wall of developers not wanting to promote a single "proper" way to play classes.
Pyros_Eien
Member
Because bard are actually pretty good DPS when played properly, and especially on a dungeon like Neverreap that is so melee/blm unfriendly. I played with a bard the other day on DF with my monk, and the bard was keeping up/beating me on damage. Now it could be because I'm a terrible monk, but there's very rarely anyone outdpsing me in dungeons, and when they are they have hive weapons. For numbers, he and I were doing ~800DPS on bosses, but the fights are way more annoying as a monk(dropping GL3 during totem, sometimes during fog phase, avoiding tornadoes sucks etc). Still, that's perfectly fine DPS for EXDR, and way more than "better" classes do most of the time anyway.
Lanrutcon
Member
You've played Guild Wars 2, I presume.
Cause that is exactly how most exploration dungeon groups are broadcast.
Rose of Eternity
Banned
Very quickly, randomly picked video of a dps proving ground:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-j0QMQVB3I
It's not only a dps check for higher difficulties, but cooldowns, kiting, silences, etc. FF14 lacks a ton of kiting though.
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
No, the community would get better with a DPS/metric meter.
It is never about giving douches more power, it is a tool to assist a player in getting better with their class.
If it is a standard, everyone will average out to be well...average.
The community won't have to suffer through a bunch of players with 400-500 dps that half-ass their way through and expecting you to carry them and wasting everyone time.
In the end, the meter sets a base-line so you can feel good about your self-improvement and progress throughout your adventure.
It also helps other to acknowledge you as a good player and an asset to their group.
It is a great tool overall.
That's true, I mean, if you're a WHM, healing is OK I guess but why waste MP on that when you have those Stone spells with the really cool effects? I hear all the tanks have some self heals so they should be fine,
Actually no, I never played GW2 past the first month or two that it came out and even then, I never got a character to max. I find that hilarious in a sad way because I was just trying to parody a stupid community.
24m36s? That's already shit. 18m or bust.
I really think people just don't understand how little optimal DPS matters in dungeons. Even the worst Vault run I went through recently was just barely over 30m and that was with AFKs during it. The fastest was around 21m and was 2x Melee. It's really just down to tank pacing for the majority of the clear.
Does it have a wife aggro check? diablos991 needs that.
Maybe because Extreme primals are optional content?
TDLink
Member
I've never played FF14 before but I'm interested in trying it now. So question:
I notice there's a 14 day free trial, and also a normal (not trial) 30 days for free upon purchasing the game. Do these stack?
What I mean is, can I play the 14 day trial, then buy the game and get the 30 free days on top of the 14 day trial I already did, before having to pay for a sub?
Or is the character you use in the trial not transferable to the full version or something to prevent this?
Also what are the restrictions on the free trial other than a max of level 20?
I notice there's a 14 day free trial, and also a normal (not trial) 30 days for free upon purchasing the game. Do these stack?
What I mean is, can I play the 14 day trial, then buy the game and get the 30 free days on top of the 14 day trial I already did, before having to pay for a sub?
Or is the character you use in the trial not transferable to the full version or something to prevent this?
Also what are the restrictions on the free trial other than a max of level 20?
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
They stack but if you buy early, the 14 day trial automatically ends and the 30 days begins. It sounds like you need a referral code though! PM me.
For your edit: I think it's just the level 20 cap.
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
I believe you need the full game to progress past level 20.
Try out the trial and get to the max lvl it lets you. By then you will know if you feel like buying the full version.
...are you implying there are different ways to play classes?
Because I'd agree with you if you're splitting hairs between the playstyles of "correctly" and "not correctly". Or maybe I've been missing out on the talent trees and wide array of itemization we're given to allow ourselves different playstyles...
Lanrutcon
Member
Look, I'm not taking a guess here. If you've played other MMOs you would know that what you're asking for is not realistic. It's a pipe dream. The overwhelming majority of people who will use those DPS meters will use them incorrectly or for douchebaggery. I'm not arguing that the numbers can't be used to improve people's play. I'm arguing that they won't be because of elitist, arrogant fucktards who seriously believe that pulling higher numbers makes them some kind of upper class in the game.
If there's one thing you can always count on, it's online assholes.
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
Well since the best gear is gated behind the most difficult content, there is an upper class for those pulling higher numbers.
I'm referring to the whole "our internal Professional MCHs have no issues with the job so you guys need to get good" brouhaha a week back, where they don't really give any clues how their players play MCH versus regular players. And then the trickle of early MCH rotation parses ranging from 800 to 1k+ show some variability in early rotation building that I think SE probably doesn't want to influence.
I feel like there's a little too much variability to account for in a baseline DPS check guildhest anyways? At most you can tell a dragoon to always HT before combos. Beyond that, it'd take a bit to explain DPS loss from dot clipping, which combo to opt for when, how to best use BotD, when to burst, etc., and then knowing how low or high to set the average.
Mind based dragoon is a legit build
TDLink
Member
Alright thanks for the info.
Regarding the referral code, not sure what that is but I sent you a PM.
Yeeeeeah, I've been there. I mean I've seen the enrage in A1. Had to spend more time in my DPS stance for the party to clear it that time, "barely." Still, considering how rude some people are in this game, I still think Self Parse is a better compromise until you hit the high end content.
I also imagine that, if they added this How-To videos would probably start including parse numbers in them. "If you are melee it is recommended you maintain X damage, if you are ranged than X damage." Or not, hard to say what people will do sometimes.
Like ... what, exactly? Bismarck is the current goto example for the EX Primals and it's doable with 5, maybe 4, really good people much less 8 total people (or 8 really good people in i130). Low 3000s (~3400 to be generous) is the target goal. With the current "please be this tall to ride" requirements PFs like to set for the fight, everyone there can be at ~60% effectiveness and you'd still clear with time to spare.
Rose of Eternity
Banned
I'd rather not go further into this topic because it's obvious this community isn't really used to these kind of conversations. I'll give a short analogy. In WoW, hunters are usually bad. When you get hunters in your group, you groan. FF14 has its own version of this, and because the party size is smaller, it can make you groan more, especially because the average dungeon length is longer in this game.
Yes, any good player can make a class shine and dungeons don't have big requirements. But when certain factors align, especially with certain classes, the torture is much more apparent. If I got pro brds when I get double brd, I'd never complain. But that's usually not the case, and factoring in that it's not a pure dps class amplifies this. The clock speaks for itself.
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
so your problem isn't with hunters or bards. it's with bad players.
I mean, saying dumb things is pretty much this thread's wheelhouse.
Bad players are bad players. Popular classes attract bad players. This is pretty much a known thing even here, hence lolDRG. I'll be damned if I don't expect most DRKs to not have Provoke or know what a cooldown is. But, end of the day, dungeon runs aren't tuned high enough for pretty much any of these to matter.
Put another way, 40 minutes plus in a dungeon is not entirely the fault of the DPS unless they're causing wipes for whatever reason. I had an EXDR where I was second on DPS as SCH every fight and one DPS died on the last boss and it was still under 40 minutes then (and most of it was the ~11m long boss fight).